Tow prep

[hamlet]

Hi,

Looking at getting my 2014 TEP 4Runner ready for towing a 3500# travel trailer next season. Based on my searches through the various threads I could find, I am thinking of installing the following modifications:

• Firestone Coil-Rite air bags (4135)
• Tekonsha P3 Prodigy brake controller
• B&M Transmission cooler (70268)

The last item, based on what I can tell may require the following items as well:

1. Two 5/8” – ¾” Steel Hose Clamps (The kit includes 4)
2. 4 feet of 3/8” Inner Diameter Transmssion Hose (The kit includes 4 feet of 5/16” ID hose)
3. 1 foot of 3/4” Heater Hose
4. 2 quarts of Dexron III Automatic Transmission Fluid
5. A pack of Zip Ties (6” & 11”)

Is there anything missing? Any suggestions or other thoughts? The truck is otherwise stock outside of Husky liners. The trailer will come with sway bars. If a WDH was an option, I'd do that too but since it isn't, the weight carrying stock hitch will hopefully suffice.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Jeremy556]

4. 2 quarts of Dexron III Automatic Transmission Fluid

Toyota WS Fluid, not Dex3.
Why WDH not an option?

 

[hamlet]

As far as I am aware, there are no manufacturers currently developing a WDH capable receiver hitch (on the tow vehicle) for the current gen 4Runner, is that incorrect? My understanding was that using a WDH hitch on the trailer side, connected to the weight carrying (WC) receiver hitch on the 4Runner was just asking for trouble since it's attached to a cross-member as opposed to the frame where a WDH receiver hitch should be mounted to...

* edit, clarification on the WC hitch.

 

[NoDak]

another thread if you missed it.

if I am correct there is no difference under body between 2012/2013 vs 2014, mostly its body work difference.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/138564-airbags-wdh-when-towing-overkill.html

http://www.etrailer.com/question-17938.html

 

[Jeremy556]

As far as I am aware, there are no manufacturers currently developing a WDH capable receiver hitch (on the tow vehicle) for the current gen 4Runner, is that incorrect? My understanding was that using a WDH hitch on the trailer side, connected to the weight carrying (WC) receiver hitch on the 4Runner was just asking for trouble since it's attached to a cross-member as opposed to the frame where a WDH receiver hitch should be mounted to...

* edit, clarification on the WC hitch.

Yes, ideally, the hitch should be bolted/welded to the frame rails, but the cross member mounted receiver will be fine for a few hundred pounds of tongue weight on a <5K trailer.

 

[hamlet]

Thanks for the links (I think I may have seen that thread, but thanks nonetheless). So basically there is little reason to worry about getting a WDH? The trailer, at 3500# gross weight (and ~365# tongue weight) will be well within the 4700# trailer weight, and 500# tongue weight limits of the stock WC hitch.

Now, I know the trailer is coming with friction sway control - how will that work with the stock receiver hitch (reading aside, I am a complete noob to towing)?

One thing is certain, after taking a mountain road trip this past month with a Scangauge connected, I know that the tranny is in desperate need of extra cooling. We had hot weather, but it seemed that as soon as an incline was encountered, the transmission quickly shot up to about ~200F or just over... and that was without anything getting towed, and keeping the foot off the skinny pedal.

 

[Jeremy556]

Thanks for the links (I think I may have seen that thread, but thanks nonetheless). So basically there is little reason to worry about getting a WDH? The trailer, at 3500# gross weight (and ~365# tongue weight) will be well within the 4700# trailer weight, and 500# tongue weight limits of the stock WC hitch.

Now, I know the trailer is coming with friction sway control - how will that work with the stock receiver hitch (reading aside, I am a complete noob to towing)?

One thing is certain, after taking a mountain road trip this past month with a Scangauge connected, I know that the tranny is in desperate need of extra cooling. We had hot weather, but it seemed that as soon as an incline was encountered, the transmission quickly shot up to about ~200F or just over... and that was without anything getting towed, and keeping the foot off the skinny pedal.

Generally the sway control is a damper that connects from one side of the trailer A frame to a point on the hitch going into the vehicle. Many WD hitches also include sway control in the same way, or at the connection between the bars and the trailer frame.

Is your scangauge reading the torque converter or pan temp? I wouldn't worry much until 250+ f. WS fluid is synthetic and can operate at higher temperatures than older ATFs. The cooler built into the radiator will pretty much keep the ATF temp above 180 degrees by design.

I'm running 33" MTs, have lots of armor, gear, etc and see 220-230f all the time. On level ground it stays to 180-200. I have 88K miles now and plan to change it out between 90 and 100k. My 12 qts of Toyota WS fluid just arrived from Amazon, today actually.

 

[NoDak]

Thanks for the links (I think I may have seen that thread, but thanks nonetheless). So basically there is little reason to worry about getting a WDH? The trailer, at 3500# gross weight (and ~365# tongue weight) will be well within the 4700# trailer weight, and 500# tongue weight limits of the stock WC hitch.

Now, I know the trailer is coming with friction sway control - how will that work with the stock receiver hitch (reading aside, I am a complete noob to towing)?

One thing is certain, after taking a mountain road trip this past month with a Scangauge connected, I know that the tranny is in desperate need of extra cooling. We had hot weather, but it seemed that as soon as an incline was encountered, the transmission quickly shot up to about ~200F or just over... and that was without anything getting towed, and keeping the foot off the skinny pedal.

if your pulling anything with the 4runner, drop it down to 4th, trying to drive with the torque converter locking up will shoot the temp to 200+ every time. I use the torque app when I pull to make sure my temps stay in the 150 range, but then again I run in 4th unless I have flat road or no head/side wind then I run in 5th but keep an eye out on the TT temp in torque app.

I should add, I am reading temps at the converter and pan.

 

[Socco]

Thanks for the links (I think I may have seen that thread, but thanks nonetheless). So basically there is little reason to worry about getting a WDH? The trailer, at 3500# gross weight (and ~365# tongue weight) will be well within the 4700# trailer weight, and 500# tongue weight limits of the stock WC hitch.

Hamlet,
I recently bought a 18' Jayco TT to go with my 5th Gen. FWIW, Here's what I added to my truck:

Pro Series WD Hitch with 600 Lb Trunnion Bars
Tru Cool 4589 ATF Cooler (Made by Long, also sold as B&M. Also need 1 Qt. of ATF Fluid from Toyota - Type WS)
Tekonsha P3 Controller (Get the Toyota adapter plug too, Lets you plug directly into the trucks harness)
CIPA 11960 Towing Mirrors (Amazon=$20 ea Cambodian Tire=$65 ea!!)
edit: E Rated Tires You won't like towing with the OE P-rated tires, Way too soft. I found the ride "concerning." Plus it corners WAY better.

I just got back from 2 weeks of camping with over 2000km of driving. No problems. Just make sure you keep a tube of grease handy to lube up the bars and the hitch ball. No one likes a dry rub

 

[MadeInMaine]

I have a question down the path of this thread...

When does getting a brake controller a good idea? As well as the tranny cooler...

I figure the more you pull (weight and frequency), I would assume it would be good to have one, but when is it a good thing, and when is it unnecessary.

Cheers

 

[1engineer]

...One thing is certain, after taking a mountain road trip this past month with a Scangauge connected, I know that the tranny is in desperate need of extra cooling. We had hot weather, but it seemed that as soon as an incline was encountered, the transmission quickly shot up to about ~200F or just over... and that was without anything getting towed, and keeping the foot off the skinny pedal.

Generally the sway control is a damper that connects from one side of the trailer A frame to a point on the hitch going into the vehicle. Many WD hitches also include sway control in the same way, or at the connection between the bars and the trailer frame.

Is your scangauge reading the torque converter or pan temp? I wouldn't worry much until 250+ f. WS fluid is synthetic and can operate at higher temperatures than older ATFs. The cooler built into the radiator will pretty much keep the ATF temp above 180 degrees by design.

I'm running 33" MTs, have lots of armor, gear, etc and see 220-230f all the time. On level ground it stays to 180-200. I have 88K miles now and plan to change it out between 90 and 100k. My 12 qts of Toyota WS fluid just arrived from Amazon, today actually.

I have a question down the path of this thread...

When does getting a brake controller a good idea? As well as the tranny cooler...

I figure the more you pull (weight and frequency), I would assume it would be good to have one, but when is it a good thing, and when is it unnecessary.

Cheers

[MENTION=84044]hamlet[/MENTION] there is nothing inherently wrong with adding an additional cooler but you need to understand that +200F temps are no big deal with synthetic fluids. Back in the day, sure but only because mineral based fluids couldn't handle the heat and foamed up. Nowadays +230F is not a bad thing when pulling. Actually, you can have the fluid too cold lol. Needs to be +180F in normal operating conditions. When you research this, remember all ATF's are not created equal and you need to specifically research Toyotas. We have a member here who designs and builds transmissions for Toyota who could chime in with any additional information. [MENTION=48413]Quentin[/MENTION] are you here or on your bike?
Listen to [MENTION=78273]Jeremy556[/MENTION] as he is spot on with his advice. That's twice in two days I gave you a compliment man. Must be the weather.
[MENTION=92546]MadeInMaine[/MENTION] trailer brakes are required for a trailer that exceeds 3K here in the states and 3.1K in Canada. In our most strange state they are required on any trailer over 1.5K though. Our 4Runners have a transmission cooler from the factory that does fine for rated towing loads. Other members here have installed aftermarket coolers in addition to Toyotas but again, they must know more than the Toyota engineers or else they are living in the past with fluids that were hot at 180F lol. Seriously though, they won't hurt but how much they help is debatable.

 

[hamlet]

[MENTION=84044]hamlet[/MENTION] there is nothing inherently wrong with adding an additional cooler but you need to understand that +200F temps are no big deal with synthetic fluids. Back in the day, sure but only because mineral based fluids couldn't handle the heat and foamed up. Nowadays +230F is not a bad thing when pulling. Actually, you can have the fluid too cold lol. Needs to be +180F in normal operating conditions. When you research this, remember all ATF's are not created equal and you need to specifically research Toyotas. We have a member here who designs and builds transmissions for Toyota who could chime in with any additional information. [MENTION=48413]Quentin[/MENTION] are you here or on your bike?
Listen to [MENTION=78273]Jeremy556[/MENTION] as he is spot on with his advice. That's twice in two days I gave you a compliment man. Must be the weather.
[MENTION=92546]MadeInMaine[/MENTION] trailer brakes are required for a trailer that exceeds 3K here in the states and 3.1K in Canada. In our most strange state they are required on any trailer over 1.5K though. Our 4Runners have a transmission cooler from the factory that does fine for rated towing loads. Other members here have installed aftermarket coolers in addition to Toyotas but again, they must know more than the Toyota engineers or else they are living in the past with fluids that were hot at 180F lol. Seriously though, they won't hurt but how much they help is debatable.

Engineer1 and Jeremy556, thank you, that is good to know... and yes, I am going by old dinosaur standards, and some of the threads that I've seen on the forum (though some were from the 3rd and 4th gen forums). Makes it an interesting discussion for certain. If the stock configuration with the built-in tranny cooler is sufficient for our towing loads (obviously keeping speed within limits and using some common sense), then that would mean that I don't need to worry about purchasing the aux. cooler and save myself a bit of $$$ and time. Cool.

[MENTION=78273]Jeremy556[/MENTION], thanks for all your input - So based on your comment above regarding the sway control damper connecting to a point on the hitch, will those work with the stock hitch on the 4Runner? You reference a WD hitch, as opposed to the WC hitch that is on there... just want to make sure (and thanks for your patience)! In terms of which temperature I am reading, it's what the Scangauge reads when you program in the transmission temperature code... off hand I am not sure if that's in the pan, or at the TC, but would have assumed a pan temp. Clearly, I know just enough to be dangerous to myself and my ride.

NoDak - check, already aware that OD is out when towing.

Socco - thanks for the heads up on the Crappy Tire prices. Not to worry, I do as much cross border shopping as humanly possible. As we are well aware, there are few deals to be had on this side of the border... heck, even the trailer will be picked up on the US side. :thumb: Yes, the P3 controller will be ordered with the Toyota adapter. Question for you, knowing what you know now, would you still have bought the aux cooler? In terms of tires, I hear you... that's in the works, but will probably wait until I get a lift in. Want to run 33's. BTW, I absolutely loathe the OEM tires that came with the truck... talk about mushy. They felt absolutely awful on some gravel roads I was on.

 

[Jeremy556]

When does getting a brake controller a good idea? As well as the tranny cooler...

When you have electric trailer brakes. Personally, I wouldn't want to pull anything over 2k with a 4runner sized vehicle without brakes. It's not much of an issue stopping more than that weight under normal conditions, but during a hard stop from higher speeds, the trailer will tilt forward, greatly increasing tongue weight, removing weight from the tow vehicle's front wheels, greatly increasing stopping distances.

Listen to [MENTION=78273]Jeremy556[/MENTION] as he is spot on with his advice. That's twice in two days I gave you a compliment man. Must be the weather.

Even a broken clock is correct twice a day :thumb3:

[MENTION=78273]Jeremy556[/MENTION], thanks for all your input - So based on your comment above regarding the sway control damper connecting to a point on the hitch, will those work with the stock hitch on the 4Runner? You reference a WD hitch, as opposed to the WC hitch that is on there... just want to make sure (and thanks for your patience)! In terms of which temperature I am reading, it's what the Scangauge reads when you program in the transmission temperature code... off hand I am not sure if that's in the pan, or at the TC, but would have assumed a pan temp. Clearly, I know just enough to be dangerous to myself and my ride.

...Want to run 33's

Gen4 4runner and 2nd gen Taco discussions of transmissions would be applicable, as they use the same trans and WS Fluid as the 5th gen 4runner.

The type of sway control I included an image of is a standard hitch, on the draw bar that fits into the receiver, there is a tab on the side, between the ball and the receiver that the damper connects to.

Do you know which PID values the Scangauge uses, AB or CD? AB is pan, CD is torque converter.

Keep in mind, when moving to larger tires, you are affecting your gearing in a negative way for towing.

 

[NoDak]

on my torque app I use the following :

((((A*256)+B)*(7/100)-400)/10) for pan

((((C*256)+D)*(7/100)-400)/10) for converter

 

[hamlet]

Do you know which PID values the Scangauge uses, AB or CD? AB is pan, CD is torque converter.

Keep in mind, when moving to larger tires, you are affecting your gearing in a negative way for towing.

Not sure off-hand. If I recall, this is the code I had to use as the other one did not pick anything up (from the Scangauge site):

Transmission Temperature (Alternative) 07E12182 046105820000 2808 00090005FFD8 TFT Degrees F ... so whether that is the AB / CD side, I don't know.

Well aware of tires and gearing. I used to off-road a fair bit in a modified SWB Jeep Rubicon - had it up on 35's and all I can say is that the 4.11 gearing was totally insufficient at that point, especially after adding in armor, etc.. I ended up selling it to make room for something a little bigger before getting around to changing the gearing... but it was something in the works. I am hoping that 33's is a small enough change that re-gearing won't be immediately necessary for the 4Runner.

 

[Antman]

if your pulling anything with the 4runner, drop it down to 4th, trying to drive WITHOUT the torque converter locking up will shoot the temp to 200+ every time.

Fixed it for you!:thumb3:

 

[Socco]

Socco - thanks for the heads up on the Crappy Tire prices. Not to worry, I do as much cross border shopping as humanly possible. As we are well aware, there are few deals to be had on this side of the border... heck, even the trailer will be picked up on the US side. :thumb: Yes, the P3 controller will be ordered with the Toyota adapter. Question for you, knowing what you know now, would you still have bought the aux cooler? In terms of tires, I hear you... that's in the works, but will probably wait until I get a lift in. Want to run 33's. BTW, I absolutely loathe the OEM tires that came with the truck... talk about mushy. They felt absolutely awful on some gravel roads I was on.[/QUOTE]

Yep. There is the argument that the way the truck comes from the factory is sufficient to tow its rated load, as is. Sure, you could also tow with those tires too. They will work. I frequently tow in very mountainous terrain, including the aptly named "Transmission Hill." For $70 it was peace of mind I couldn't turn down. I plan on keeping this truck for a long time so I'll write it off as an investment.

 

[Jeremy556]

My 2c on aux trans cooler...

After monitoring tons of data recorded under pretty much every type of driving (towing >5K enclosed trailer in the mountains on the highway, crawling at 3-5 mph in 105 degree ambient temps, and everything in between), I don't think they are worth it. I actually have one in a box on the shelf that I planned to install, but decided against it.

Looking at the max temps of both converter output and pan temperature, there is a very well defined range of values and 0 outliers. While these values are higher than conventional wisdom on ATF temps, I'm pretty sure this is the designed operational temperature range based on consistency. I have seen very few reports of A750 failures, compared to even other Toyota transmissions.

 

[Quentin]

Is this AT the same as the 5AT that was in the Tundra and V8 4Runner (different transfer case)? If so, it was capable of towing heavier loads in those vehicles. The 5k tow capacity is based on an SAE standard. You can bet that Toyota will design the vehicle to trigger a fault lamp before it lets high temps destroy the AT. Thus, if you aren't asking more than what the tow rating is and you aren't getting a malfunction lamp, you should be fine. I looked up the tow standard, and it appears pretty intense... far worse than what I'd regularly want to out my vehicle through.

 

[ShooterF16]

I've towed over 7k miles of the 42,000 I've put on my 4runner. I installed a transmission cooler and Scan Gauge. I know that Toyota recommends getting the fluid checked at 100k miles but I wanted to see it for myself and give myself some peace of mind. So, I took it to the dealer and had the fluid changed. Yeah, I realize it might not have needed to change it but I bought myself some peace of mind for $300.

Anyway, here's a pic of what they replaced. I'm soliciting opinions.
Cheers,
Nate