Toyota owners seem to be a fickle group

[AZ Craig]

Agreed, I'm not sure where these talking points are even coming from. I don't know of any automakers that are still offering anything more than simple alterations within their preset packages. I considered a Grand Cherokee when they started making them with a Diesel. I wanted a comfortable workhorse SUV that I could take camping, etc, and had gobs of power. Well, the Diesel motor isn't an option without the luxury package with all the technology BS for an extra $6K, and even then it had to be oredered that way because all the dealer stock was the "Overland" package which was another 4-5K more on top of that. This sounds like a pointless argument to me. If Wranglers were built like Toyota's and had all the extra options available to choose from, they would be priced like Land Rovers...

You haven't tried building a JL Wrangler lately have you? A Rubicon can run well over $60000.

That is priced like a Land Rover. I can go get a nice Discovery Landmark Edition for the same damn price!

 

[mteolus]

You haven't tried building a JL Wrangler lately have you? A Rubicon can run well over $60000.

No competition. Hopefully Bronco will bring the prices down some with a possible competitor. Nothing else really has been a true competitor to the Wrangler.

 

[apc9199]

You haven't tried building a JL Wrangler lately have you? A Rubicon can run well over $60000.

That is priced like a Land Rover. I can go get a nice Discovery Landmark Edition for the same damn price!

Why would I? An overpriced Fiat-Daimler-Chrysler vehicle that cant pass a front end crash test and doesn't hold its trade-in value? I'll pass!

 

[GupsT4R]

It's not news. The 4runner does a bunch of stuff "good enough".

I looked a the:

Wrangler/Gladiator - hated the boxy design and awkward doors. Not to mention they don't drive straight ever.

Looked at the Colorado, but wasn't quite convinced when it came to writing a check.

Tacoma is always good, but expensive for what you get.

F-150 is a great driving vehicle but way too big for my area.

Cherokee Trail Hawk - Garbage.

In the end the 4runner was the best all around choice. Not as nice to drive as the F-150 or offroad capable as the "real" jeeps nor as featured as the Colorado nor useful as the Tacoma. But it's a known quantity. So I'm one of they guys that buys "good enough" at a lot of things.

Just thought it was funny that right under the article that says not to but a 4runner there was a "hey buy a jeep" article.

Lets be honest here Toyota build quality and reliability is above and beyond.

I think "good enough" come from everything else (tech, safety. comfort, 4x4 features) that comes with the 4runner that we're not 100% amazed by and would choose to live with or modify to suit our own preference.

The new toyota safety sense and 8" navi multimedia tech upgrades in the 2020 are definitely not the best systems in the automotive arena but are note worthy upgrades that will draw a lot of people into a 2020 4runner

FYI those Cherokee Trail Hawks are everywhere in my town..like everywhere and 90% driven by women. You'd be amazed at how many "Jeep Girl" stickers and decals i see on a daily basis.

 

[Harlock]

As we knock this thread back and forth over what we think Toyota should be doing and what we want, I think it's important for us to consider their recent history.

Toyota is a conservative Japanese company that has long upheld the concept of "kaizen" or "continuous improvement" as one of it's most esteemed core values. As a result, the company has been more iterative than innovative and the result has been a long history of building reliable, low-defect, although perhaps less exciting, vehicles. Because of this Toyota had a long tradition of building their vehicles on the three pillars of reliability, durability and quality. This focus remained consistent until the 2000s when things changed significantly.

In 1995, Hiroshi Okuda was appointed the company’s new president. Aggressive in his desire to transform Toyota, Okuda created a “2005 vision” for the company that called for rapid growth in global market share over the next decade. In 2000, as part of this, Toyota initiated a radically new purchasing strategy called “Construction of Cost Competitiveness for the 21st Century.” This plan called for selecting suppliers on the basis of globally competitive target prices. The goal was to reduce costs by 30% over three years.

Takahiro Fujimoto, a well-regarded Japanese researcher on Toyota, reported that in the wake of their rapid growth, Toyota increasingly failed to properly evaluate and approve components designed by outside overseas suppliers.

In 2007, Consumer Reports noted that Toyota's overall vehicle quality, had declined. In 2008, they decided to no longer to give automatic “recommended” rating to all Toyota models based on their previous evaluations. David Champion, then senior director of Consumer Reports’ Auto Test Center, stated at the time that Toyota's vehicle quality had measurably decreased.

Here are some examples of what followed:

• In 2004 in Japan and later in 2005 in the US, Toyota recalled pickups and SUVs for steering defects.
• In 2009-10 Toyota faced an unprecedented crisis as it recalled 9 million US vehicles for "unintended acceleration," in what became the largest recall since that of Ford Motor Company in 1996.
• In 2012, Toyota recalled 7.43 million vehicles worldwide to fix malfunctioning power window switches.
• Throughout this period, Toyota also had a number of other recalls for issues such as faulty airbags, damaged trim panels, and even suspension components that were damaged during installation at the factory. They also brought back numerous vehicles for "warranty repairs" such as cracking dashboards on 4th Gen 4Runners.

All of this strained Toyota's stellar relationships with suppliers and significantly damaged people's perceptions about Toyota's quality. So in 2009, Akio Toyoda - grandson of the company's founder, took over as president with the goal of returning Toyota to it's roots. He has gone on record as stating that Okuda's plans for Toyota had worked so well that by 2003 sales were growing faster than the company could manage and that the all-out focus on growth had warped the “order of Toyota’s traditional priorities.”

Since then, Toyota may not have been the most exciting company, but they have made significant efforts to improve what they're building. Under Toyoda, the company has reorganized to deliberately slow down product development, established a team of about 1,000 quality engineers, and greatly expanded its rapid quality response teams across the globe.

During the efforts to remake the company, Toyota has been hampered by a number natural disasters in Japan such as the 2011 Tsunami which damaged their factories, two earthquakes in 2016 that halted automotive operations across the country and a Typhoon in 2018 that caused Toyota to close 11 of its factories early, cancelling evening shifts.

In light of this, the fact that the 5th Gen still doesn't have LEDs and the 6th Gen remains little more than an idea should be less surprising. Right now, Toyota is more focused on regaining their traditional three pillars than they are on adding the hottest new features.

The Bronco's launch will almost certainly serve as a reminder to Toyota that because time ever marches forward and people's interests continuously change, the 4Runner cannot stay the same forever. The Bronco is an example of how Americans often often prefer innovation to iteration. We enjoy pushing the envelope to extend the limits of what's possible. But as the owners of the last body-on-frame mid-size SUV being made, we should also be among the first to appreciate Toyota's reluctance to rapidly change.

So are forum members divided because we argue about what's important? Just like other humans, we are thrilled by the innovation and creativity of the latest gadgets and newest fashions. Yet we still having the capacity to appreciate the detail and craftsmanship that goes into creating things like ancient Japanese swords. The fact that the processes and mindsets that go into making each are vastly different and rarely compatible often force us to choose which beliefs should have the priority. But I don't think that makes us fickle. We are not complacent creatures and can still want 35" tires from the factory while taking pride in a drivetrain meticulously built to last hundreds of thousands of miles.

 

[LandCruiser]

As we knock this thread back and forth over what we think Toyota should be doing and what we want, I think it's important for us to consider their recent history.

Toyota is a conservative Japanese company that has long upheld the concept of "kaizen" or "continuous improvement" as one of it's most esteemed core values. As a result, the company has been more iterative than innovative and the result has been a long history of building reliable, low-defect, although perhaps less exciting, vehicles. Because of this Toyota had a long tradition of building their vehicles on the three pillars of reliability, durability and quality. This focus remained consistent until the 2000s when things changed significantly.

In 1995, Hiroshi Okuda was appointed the company’s new president. Aggressive in his desire to transform Toyota, Okuda created a “2005 vision” for the company that called for rapid growth in global market share over the next decade. In 2000, as part of this, Toyota initiated a radically new purchasing strategy called “Construction of Cost Competitiveness for the 21st Century.” This plan called for selecting suppliers on the basis of globally competitive target prices. The goal was to reduce costs by 30% over three years.

Takahiro Fujimoto, a well-regarded Japanese researcher on Toyota, reported that in the wake of their rapid growth, Toyota increasingly failed to properly evaluate and approve components designed by outside overseas suppliers.

In 2007, Consumer Reports noted that Toyota's overall vehicle quality, had declined. In 2008, they decided to no longer to give automatic “recommended” rating to all Toyota models based on their previous evaluations. David Champion, then senior director of Consumer Reports’ Auto Test Center, stated at the time that Toyota's vehicle quality had measurably decreased.

Here are some examples of what followed:

• In 2004 in Japan and later in 2005 in the US, Toyota recalled pickups and SUVs for steering defects.
• In 2009-10 Toyota faced an unprecedented crisis as it recalled 9 million US vehicles for "unintended acceleration," in what became the largest recall since that of Ford Motor Company in 1996.
• In 2012, Toyota recalled 7.43 million vehicles worldwide to fix malfunctioning power window switches.
• Throughout this period, Toyota also had a number of other recalls for issues such as faulty airbags, damaged trim panels, and even suspension components that were damaged during installation at the factory. They also brought back numerous vehicles for "warranty repairs" such as cracking dashboards on 4th Gen 4Runners.

All of this strained Toyota's stellar relationships with suppliers and significantly damaged people's perceptions about Toyota's quality. So in 2009, Akio Toyoda - grandson of the company's founder, took over as president with the goal of returning Toyota to it's roots. He has gone on record as stating that Okuda's plans for Toyota had worked so well that by 2003 sales were growing faster than the company could manage and that the all-out focus on growth had warped the “order of Toyota’s traditional priorities.”

Since then, Toyota may not have been the most exciting company, but they have made significant efforts to improve what they're building. Under Toyoda, the company has reorganized to deliberately slow down product development, established a team of about 1,000 quality engineers, and greatly expanded its rapid quality response teams across the globe.

During the efforts to remake the company, Toyota has been hampered by a number natural disasters in Japan such as the 2011 Tsunami which damaged their factories, two earthquakes in 2016 that halted automotive operations across the country and a Typhoon in 2018 that caused Toyota to close 11 of its factories early, cancelling evening shifts.

In light of this, the fact that the 5th Gen still doesn't have LEDs and the 6th Gen remains little more than an idea should be less surprising. Right now, Toyota is more focused on regaining their traditional three pillars than they are on adding the hottest new features.

The Bronco's launch will almost certainly serve as a reminder to Toyota that because time ever marches forward and people's interests continuously change, the 4Runner cannot stay the same forever. The Bronco is an example of how Americans often often prefer innovation to iteration. We enjoy pushing the envelope to extend the limits of what's possible. But as the owners of the last body-on-frame mid-size SUV being made, we should also be among the first to appreciate Toyota's reluctance to rapidly change.

So are forum members divided because we argue about what's important? Just like other humans, we are thrilled by the innovation and creativity of the latest gadgets and newest fashions. Yet we still having the capacity to appreciate the detail and craftsmanship that goes into creating things like ancient Japanese swords. The fact that the processes and mindsets that go into making each are vastly different and rarely compatible often force us to choose which beliefs should have the priority. But I don't think that makes us fickle. We are not complacent creatures and can still want 35" tires from the factory while taking pride in a drivetrain meticulously built to last hundreds of thousands of miles.

Be that as it may, the Japanese are stellar at making excuses and Toyota has had a somewhat autonomous presence in the US that has helped develop vehicles solely for the US market that are different from those sold JDM and in Toyota's other international markets--in fact in just about every region where Toyota operates it has several unique models suited for the market, how many and how carefully engineered they are depends on how much market presence they have.

So it stands to bear that if they can engineer Tacos and Tundras and whatever the hell the FJ Cruiser was for the American market, whoever was at the helm of Toyota US should have been paying attention that an off-road oriented BOF SUV has ALWAYS been something important to a subset of Toyota customers, customers they either ignore or throw them a bone from time to time.

I would even argue that the 5th Gen 4Runner is enough of a unique model to say it was engineered solely for the US market.

I'm not asking them to change their bushido, I'm just saying if the 6th gen 4Runner or 300 Series sucks, I'm kind of done with them because their cars and pickups are shit.

 

[sn_85]

I've had all toyota vehicles for 15 years. My issue isn't so much the dated product, but the lack of any effort in any way to make it better. That isn't historically what Toyota was doing. The 4Runner has received a complete generational update every 7 years historically. Even the FJ40 had regular and meaningful updates to the engine, the transmission, the axles, the brakes, etc. The very long production run without updates is something new. This is not classic Toyota in any way. The closest thing I know if is the 7x series. Even the 7x series has regular updates and a more modern engine and transmission lineup. The 4Runner is little more a body update on a 2003 model and a downgrade in drivetrain. It's been 17 years to this point and looking like another 3-5 more before anything gets a refresh.

And Toyota is updated it's products in other markets. The Prado and Hilux are getting new and significantly more powerful engines this year. It's basically just our market that isn't getting updated even if they keep the same platform.

If it makes me fickle - so be it. I'm fickle. But to be fair - the very long production cycle isn't typical of Toyota. I can't think of any model that has been essentially unchanged for what's looking like 15 years.

Right on. It's not even about being fickle. It's the fact that Toyota has all the goods in one machine or another but doesn't want to put it all into one vehicle. They could have thrown in the 6spd AT into our trucks a long time ago. They could have given us the upgrade option of the 4.6L V8. What about better gear ratios? And I agree about the 120 and 150 platforms being very similar. The changes were more evolutionary than revolutionary between the two and you can argue in many ways it took a step back with the lack of a V8 option. The 4Runner has been same-same since 2003. So it'll be 20 years since any meaningful update if 2022/23 is the new MY. The Tundra has been pretty much the same since 2007 and the 2014 was more of a Gen 2.5. When you have 15-20 years between major upgrades cycles people have a right to be fickle.

And to be honest I don't we're asking all that much to be different in the 4Runner. All it needed was the 4.6L V8, 6spd, 4.10 gears and I'd be a happy camper. Again, it's all there. Toyota just doesn't want to give it to us.

 

[thennen]

As we knock this thread back and forth over what we think Toyota should be doing and what we want, I think it's important for us to consider their recent history.

Toyota is a conservative Japanese company that has long upheld the concept of "kaizen" or "continuous improvement" as one of it's most esteemed core values. As a result, the company has been more iterative than innovative and the result has been a long history of building reliable, low-defect, although perhaps less exciting, vehicles. Because of this Toyota had a long tradition of building their vehicles on the three pillars of reliability, durability and quality. This focus remained consistent until the 2000s when things changed significantly.

In 1995, Hiroshi Okuda was appointed the company’s new president. Aggressive in his desire to transform Toyota, Okuda created a “2005 vision” for the company that called for rapid growth in global market share over the next decade. In 2000, as part of this, Toyota initiated a radically new purchasing strategy called “Construction of Cost Competitiveness for the 21st Century.” This plan called for selecting suppliers on the basis of globally competitive target prices. The goal was to reduce costs by 30% over three years.

Takahiro Fujimoto, a well-regarded Japanese researcher on Toyota, reported that in the wake of their rapid growth, Toyota increasingly failed to properly evaluate and approve components designed by outside overseas suppliers.

In 2007, Consumer Reports noted that Toyota's overall vehicle quality, had declined. In 2008, they decided to no longer to give automatic “recommended” rating to all Toyota models based on their previous evaluations. David Champion, then senior director of Consumer Reports’ Auto Test Center, stated at the time that Toyota's vehicle quality had measurably decreased.

Here are some examples of what followed:

• In 2004 in Japan and later in 2005 in the US, Toyota recalled pickups and SUVs for steering defects.
• In 2009-10 Toyota faced an unprecedented crisis as it recalled 9 million US vehicles for "unintended acceleration," in what became the largest recall since that of Ford Motor Company in 1996.
• In 2012, Toyota recalled 7.43 million vehicles worldwide to fix malfunctioning power window switches.
• Throughout this period, Toyota also had a number of other recalls for issues such as faulty airbags, damaged trim panels, and even suspension components that were damaged during installation at the factory. They also brought back numerous vehicles for "warranty repairs" such as cracking dashboards on 4th Gen 4Runners.

All of this strained Toyota's stellar relationships with suppliers and significantly damaged people's perceptions about Toyota's quality. So in 2009, Akio Toyoda - grandson of the company's founder, took over as president with the goal of returning Toyota to it's roots. He has gone on record as stating that Okuda's plans for Toyota had worked so well that by 2003 sales were growing faster than the company could manage and that the all-out focus on growth had warped the “order of Toyota’s traditional priorities.”

Since then, Toyota may not have been the most exciting company, but they have made significant efforts to improve what they're building. Under Toyoda, the company has reorganized to deliberately slow down product development, established a team of about 1,000 quality engineers, and greatly expanded its rapid quality response teams across the globe.

During the efforts to remake the company, Toyota has been hampered by a number natural disasters in Japan such as the 2011 Tsunami which damaged their factories, two earthquakes in 2016 that halted automotive operations across the country and a Typhoon in 2018 that caused Toyota to close 11 of its factories early, cancelling evening shifts.

In light of this, the fact that the 5th Gen still doesn't have LEDs and the 6th Gen remains little more than an idea should be less surprising. Right now, Toyota is more focused on regaining their traditional three pillars than they are on adding the hottest new features.

The Bronco's launch will almost certainly serve as a reminder to Toyota that because time ever marches forward and people's interests continuously change, the 4Runner cannot stay the same forever. The Bronco is an example of how Americans often often prefer innovation to iteration. We enjoy pushing the envelope to extend the limits of what's possible. But as the owners of the last body-on-frame mid-size SUV being made, we should also be among the first to appreciate Toyota's reluctance to rapidly change.

So are forum members divided because we argue about what's important? Just like other humans, we are thrilled by the innovation and creativity of the latest gadgets and newest fashions. Yet we still having the capacity to appreciate the detail and craftsmanship that goes into creating things like ancient Japanese swords. The fact that the processes and mindsets that go into making each are vastly different and rarely compatible often force us to choose which beliefs should have the priority. But I don't think that makes us fickle. We are not complacent creatures and can still want 35" tires from the factory while taking pride in a drivetrain meticulously built to last hundreds of thousands of miles.

Well said, and thanks for the history. There was indeed that period of quality problems that made me say to myself, "C'mon, Toyota, you're smarter than this." Hopefully they're proceeding away from that, as you mentioned.

Also, I believe I've read in several places that Akio Toyoda is also focused on bringing excitement to Toyota's vehicles. Have you heard this? Seems that some examples may already be here. We now have a 300hp Camry, a 300hp Rav4, and a Supra that is already slated to receive improvements. I've heard rumors of a hot Corolla that may be headed our way, and rumors that the Land Cruiser may be receiving some serious upgrades. Perhaps Akio Toyoda has good things in mind for the 4Runner that we wouldn't guess.

 

[blackened_offroad]

this thread is really dumb. you guys must be super bored in lockdown.

 

[RichinRidgewood]

Be that as it may, the Japanese are stellar at making excuses and Toyota has had a somewhat autonomous presence in the US that has helped develop vehicles solely for the US market that are different from those sold JDM and in Toyota's other international markets--in fact in just about every region where Toyota operates it has several unique models suited for the market, how many and how carefully engineered they are depends on how much market presence they have.

So it stands to bear that if they can engineer Tacos and Tundras and whatever the hell the FJ Cruiser was for the American market, whoever was at the helm of Toyota US should have been paying attention that an off-road oriented BOF SUV has ALWAYS been something important to a subset of Toyota customers, customers they either ignore or throw them a bone from time to time.

I would even argue that the 5th Gen 4Runner is enough of a unique model to say it was engineered solely for the US market.

I'm not asking them to change their bushido, I'm just saying if the 6th gen 4Runner or 300 Series sucks, I'm kind of done with them because their cars and pickups are shit.

“As of 2014, the 4Runner is sold in the United States, Bolivia, Canada, Central America, Bahamas, Ecuador, Peru, Chile and Venezuela” wiki

IMHO this information is a very important. Unless they plan market the new 4R in other locations I’m seeing bad fuel, low tech engines, ability to haul cargo over bad “roads” not mall crawler, frat boy, soccer mom crap like you see in Broncos and Jeeps.

 

[83Mule]

I have a Rubi and a 4Runner as well as the Mule......If I had to get in one of them and set the cruise, aim it at the Moon and get there or Die! I would take the Mule, 4Runner then Rubicon................

 

[thennen]

I have a Rubi and a 4Runner as well as the Mule......If I had to get in one of them and set the cruise, aim it at the Moon and get there or Die! I would take the Mule, 4Runner then Rubicon................

Of course, if you got there you’d die, too ;-)

 

[tundradan]

Fun read!

 

[Harlock]

Well said, and thanks for the history. There was indeed that period of quality problems that made me say to myself, "C'mon, Toyota, you're smarter than this." Hopefully they're proceeding away from that, as you mentioned.

Also, I believe I've read in several places that Akio Toyoda is also focused on bringing excitement to Toyota's vehicles. Have you heard this? Seems that some examples may already be here. We now have a 300hp Camry, a 300hp Rav4, and a Supra that is already slated to receive improvements. I've heard rumors of a hot Corolla that may be headed our way, and rumors that the Land Cruiser may be receiving some serious upgrades. Perhaps Akio Toyoda has good things in mind for the 4Runner that we wouldn't guess.

Yes, it's true that when Akio Toyoda took over he issued a companywide decree for "no more boring cars." And since that time, he's given designers more power in the production process. Several major Toyota designers have verified this in media interviews as they've discussed changes in the process of creating those cars and others like the 7th Gen Camry.

Toyota's current vehicle-development strategy elevates a new "product chief designer" to work alongside the chief engineer as equal partners in creating vehicles. This was previously unheard of at Toyota.

Some on the forum have expressed frustration at Toyota's seeming lack of change as they've put their house in order. But vehicle development is a many year process and only recently are we beginning to see the fruits of Toyoda's directives. Like you, I too hope this bodes well for tomorrow's 4Runner. What's especially interesting is that Toyota and Mazda jointly run a plant in Alabama and Toyota had previously announced they would build Corollas there. But Toyota just announced a couple of weeks ago they will be building a "new, yet-to-be-announced SUV" at the location instead. Could this be the FT-4X? If so, Toyota may be responding to the Bronco sooner than later.

 

[itr1275]

In 2007, Consumer Reports noted that Toyota's overall vehicle quality, had declined. In 2008, they decided to no longer to give automatic “recommended” rating to all Toyota models based on their previous evaluations. David Champion, then senior director of Consumer Reports’ Auto Test Center, stated at the time that Toyota's vehicle quality had measurably decreased.

Well thought out write up and I agree. The reliability ratings of all the cars has evened out quite a bit, dare I even say it's a bit more fair? I find it also depends on who writes the articles, or more like who pays the bills.

This article puts Chevy, Buick, Mini and even Dodge ahead of lots of Japanese cars.
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/most-reliable-cars-cars-that-last-forever

1) 2020 Toyota Corolla
2) 2019 Mini Cooper
3) 2019 Mini Cooper Clubman
4) 2019 Buick LaCrosse
5) 2020 Nissan Versa
6) 2019 Chevrolet Cruze
7) 2019 Toyota Prius c
8) 2020 Buick Regal
9) 2020 Toyota Camry
10) 2020 Kia Forte
11) 2019 Kia Cadenza
12) 2020 Toyota Prius
13) 2020 Chevrolet Impala
14) 2020 Hyundai Elantra
15) 2020 Dodge Challenger
16) 2019 Toyota Yaris
17) 2019 Kia Rio
18) 2020 Toyota Prius Prime

Notably not mentioned Honda, Subaru, Ford, VW, Audi, BMW nor Tesla? Come on a freaking the ultimate rental car - Chevy Impala and Dodge anything? Seriously. OK I have some bias.

Here they ranked the 4runner 2nd from last. The quote the body on frame as an issue, but it's a reliability report?
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/the-most-and-least-reliable-suvs

In our ranking of midsize SUVs, however, the trade-offs for its off-road prowess become apparent, leading to a spot near the bottom of the list. Its truck-like, body-on-frame construction provides a ride that doesn't have the refinement of many rivals. That same construction makes the 4Runner less fuel efficient than many competitors.
​

I like my T4R, but I'm not a Toyota die hard. They have their good points and places to improve. But the market is changing and they will do their best to adapt. Will they do it fast enough with out ruining a good thing?

 

[TRD PANTHER]

I really like the new Bronco and would have definitely considered it if it was available a couple years ago. I don’t think the 4Runner is in the same group as the Wrangler or the new Bronco and never has been. It has always been a capable family based mid size SUV with optional 4WD. Toyota will either have to compete with something similar to the Jeep and the Bronco in either, bringing back the FJ with similar features to Bronco and Jeep, or make the 4Runner similar, with removable doors, roofs, etc., which, I don’t see happening.
My concerns will be longevity and reliability as I keep cars for 10+ years. Back in 2016, I bought my wife a brand new Ford Edge Titanium AWD fully loaded and I purchased the 8 year 100k warranty and maintenance because it was an American car with lots of technology. I have never bought a warranty for my Toyota 4WD’s dating back to 1982 and never needed it.

 

[Runner4it]

If you cant understand why most manufacturers, especially lower end brands dont do customer orders the way expensive ones do, you need a lesson in advanced manufacturing. The price of your 4runner will go up to accommodate the changes in manufacturing flow. Toyota pioneered 5S and 6 sigma manufacturing and supply chain management. It is the reason they are successful. They can build high quality, reliable vehicles at a low because they leverage a supply chain and automation to help. Companies like Porsche and land rover rely a lot more on manual labor and artisan work. There is a benefit, it looks good and unique but it also has engrained human error. Toyota engineered that out. Go take a tour of the F150 plant in Michigan and then go to a low yield manufacturing plant like land rover. The difference are astounding. I've worked in low yield manufacturing for years, there is a reason we have more issues...

As for jeep. Their market has changed. They used to be dedicated to off roaders. Their market has shifted to college girls, soccer moms and joe blow who want a "cool" convertible. Smart on them, but they are two different market segments really. 4runner owners want to pretend they can keep up which is why all the talk. Jeep owners dont even know 4runners exist.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[Thebeastlives]

Some responses:

I think it would be nice to be able to put 33" or 34" tires without any fender cutting or BMCs, have decent power, have more than 5 gears, have good braking, and for god sakes decent lighting inside and out. Why do we need to buy a Sprint Booster, can't they program the accelerator a little better???

Putting the GX engine and transmission in the 4Runner would be a good start. How about LED lighting? How about an optional front locking diff?

A front locker would be awesome from the factory

My issue isn't so much the dated product, but the lack of any effort in any way to make it better

LED headlights and a relatively up to date entertainment stack

HIDs would have appropriate in 2014 - and would have been fine until the next model

The cruise control stick is the same one from my 95 camry





My input? Look at wishes/complaints from competitive vehicle forums.

Never understood the grass is greener mentality some folks have. They complain about stuff that matters less and can be fixed with the 1000s of aftermarket mods that real offroaders used everyday on their 4 runners. Go to the Jeep forum and look at their complaints. It isn't about headlights or fitting 33" tires or addition of a sprint booster...lol. They actually have real complains about their motor, turbos, transmission or other major failures that should never happen within 4 years of ownership. Grass isn't always greener on the other side folks. Maybe because I'm older now but having a reliable trustworthy 4 runner that I can count on is far more important in my life than trendy fancy nonsense options that I can fixed with aftermarket accessories anyways instead of complaining about it.

 

[thennen]

Never understood the grass is greener mentality some folks have. They complain about stuff that matters less and can be fixed with the 1000s of aftermarket mods that real offroaders used everyday on their 4 runners. Go to the Jeep forum and look at their complaints. It isn't about headlights or fitting 33" tires or addition of a sprint booster...lol. They actually have real complains about their motor, turbos, transmission or other major failures that should never happen within 4 years of ownership. Grass isn't always greener on the other side folks. Maybe because I'm older now but having a reliable trustworthy 4 runner that I can count on is far more important in my life than trendy fancy nonsense options that I can fixed with aftermarket accessories anyways instead of complaining about it.

Agreed. I think perhaps the most confusing to me is when someone goes through all the searching and research and comparing to find the 4Runner they want, then complain about horsepower, transmission, how 'dated' it is, infotainment system, gas pedal, etc., etc. It's as if all those things were hidden from sight until after they got it home. Those types of complaints would be dumb regardless of what vehicle you buy.

 

[Deuxdiesel]

Like a dummy I sold my beloved 2nd Gen 4R to get into the Jeep world. Even though I maintained and pampered my Wrangler, it was still finicky. It doesn't matter which forum you visit, all Wrangler forums are full of serious complaints. We ***** about wheel balance here, but unless you've been in a Wrangler when the death wobbles occur, you have no idea. The new JL's are catching fire, shutting down, shimmy and wobble, have frame weld issues and all kinds of other fun stuff. A TRD pro can probably do 80-90% of what a Wrangler JLU can do, and be more comfortable and reliable.