Trailer Sway Suggestions?

I hear you, you will be better off follwing posted speed limits. Making sure you are loaded correctly with balance and tounge weight. Having your trailer match your regulations for trailer or break away brakes etc, differes from state to state.

I think that your money would be better invested in things such as airbags for the rear coils to offset the weight which will help better stabilize the trailer then use the rest for the trip or treats like ice cream etc. Again getting comfortable with the trailer without the car loaded up is a first to do. I have hauled even much greater and still have not had any issues with it properly loaded and at a resonable speed. Like anything if you push it above hwat you should be driving then you will have issues. I wont tell you not to do it just that you have better options than having to spend your money on it.

I get being careful, i have me my wife, my service animal at all times and then my other dog, grandkids etc so I get the safety. Just slow down and again take your time loading. If this doesnt do it for say test trips then go further until when you take it for a tril run say a camping weekend an hour away it is working within resoanable limits.
 
You are certainly free to do as you wish. Sway control is to safe towing what steering dampers are to safe suspension geometry. If the physics of the trailer are right you don't need the sway control. Covering up a flaw with a dampener is more dangerous in the case it fails. Adding it to an already proper tow setup wont hurt anything. If it feels good go for it. Just don't mistake it for proper trailer loading.
 
Doc_Fry said:
...then use the rest for the trip or treats like ice cream etc.
Click to expand...
Hahahaha. Love it. Gotta have that ice cream.

Jetboy said:
You are certainly free to do as you wish. Sway control is to safe towing what steering dampers are to safe suspension geometry. If the physics of the trailer are right you don't need the sway control. Covering up a flaw with a dampener is more dangerous in the case it fails. Adding it to an already proper tow setup wont hurt anything. If it feels good go for it. Just don't mistake it for proper trailer loading.
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So I understand your point and I am confident in my ability to drive a vehicle and tow a trailer, but I'm just wondering about your statement a little. Are you saying "If the physics of your trailer are right you don't need the sway control" even in an emergency situation where some f-tard pulls out in front of you and slams on the brakes? Or some one bumps me into the other lane quickly? Or many other potentially hazardous situations... The way you worded that post made it sound like sway control wasn't going to help you if the trailer is loaded properly.

The reason I ask is because my trailer seems to be loaded correctly. The tongue weight is between 10-15% of the trailer weight. But the Toyota manual still recommends sway control. And my current opinion is that sway control would help in some situations. I'm going to drag my whole family over 3,000 miles with that thing in about a month. There is a lot that can happen in 3,000 miles.
 
kittyhawksurf said:
Hahahaha. Love it. Gotta have that ice cream.



So I understand your point and I am confident in my ability to drive a vehicle and tow a trailer, but I'm just wondering about your statement a little. Are you saying "If the physics of your trailer are right you don't need the sway control" even in an emergency situation where some f-tard pulls out in front of you and slams on the brakes? Or some one bumps me into the other lane quickly? Or many other potentially hazardous situations... The way you worded that post made it sound like sway control wasn't going to help you if the trailer is loaded properly.

The reason I ask is because my trailer seems to be loaded correctly. The tongue weight is between 10-15% of the trailer weight. But the Toyota manual still recommends sway control. And my current opinion is that sway control would help in some situations. I'm going to drag my whole family over 3,000 miles with that thing in about a month. There is a lot that can happen in 3,000 miles.
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There are reasons many are telling you different than "the manual."

1. Many (most) who have towed with the 4Runner have towed trailers without the WDH. Personally, I have towed between 4-5K trailers many times through the mountains with no sway control. Why? Because the trailers didn't sway!
2. While Toyota is correct in the manual statement they left out a few things.
From Etrailer:
When Is Weight Distribution Needed?

You would likely benefit from a weight-distribution system if:

-Your trailer weight (GTW) is more than 50 percent of your vehicle's weight (GVWR)
-The rear of your tow vehicle sags when the trailer is hooked up
-You experience trailer sway
-Your tow vehicle headlights point upward
-You find it difficult to steer or stop your rig
-You want to tow to the highest capacity allowed by your vehicle's trailer hitch setup
 
kittyhawksurf said:
Hahahaha. Love it. Gotta have that ice cream.



So I understand your point and I am confident in my ability to drive a vehicle and tow a trailer, but I'm just wondering about your statement a little. Are you saying "If the physics of your trailer are right you don't need the sway control" even in an emergency situation where some f-tard pulls out in front of you and slams on the brakes? Or some one bumps me into the other lane quickly? Or many other potentially hazardous situations... The way you worded that post made it sound like sway control wasn't going to help you if the trailer is loaded properly.

The reason I ask is because my trailer seems to be loaded correctly. The tongue weight is between 10-15% of the trailer weight. But the Toyota manual still recommends sway control. And my current opinion is that sway control would help in some situations. I'm going to drag my whole family over 3,000 miles with that thing in about a month. There is a lot that can happen in 3,000 miles.
Click to expand...

For those situations you mention, no - a sway control will not do anything meaningful to help you. The only thing they do is apply some dampening to slow or stop harmonic frequencies that build under certain circumstances which generally involve improper loading and/or excessive ball height. It's equivalent to using shock absorbers to dampen an unbalanced tire. Balancing the tire is a lot better idea.

A weight distributing hitch can go a long way toward stabilizing things like quick lane changes because it spreads the load better to the tow vehicle - particularly it applies more weight to the tow vehicles front tires. It also happens to naturally self center. A sway dampener does not.

You generally won't see sway dampeners on anything but campers and boat trailers - because unfortunately those are the two types of trailers are typically poorly balanced by design. They are designed for people who don't tow often and when they do they tow with an improper tow vehicle for the weight of the trailer. "Sure you can tow this 26' bumper pull behind you Sienna!" (In some parts of the world this is common practice. Last time I was in Germany I passed an Audi a4 towing a three horse trailer). So they build the trailers at the margin of safety and then slap a dampener on it and call it a day.

If you're going to spend $200 - get one of these:
10,000 Lb. Capacity Weight-Distributing Hitch System It's way overkill for a light trailer, but it's probably a lot better than a $30 dampener.

We all want you to be safe. We just don't want you to waste money thinking you're being safer when that may not be the case.
 
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1engineer said:
There are reasons many are telling you different than "the manual."

1. Many (most) who have towed with the 4Runner have towed trailers without the WDH. Personally, I have towed between 4-5K trailers many times through the mountains with no sway control. Why? Because the trailers didn't sway!
Click to expand...

I'm not worried about regular driving sway. It's more fishtailing... addressed below:

Jetboy said:
For those situations you mention, no - a sway control will not do anything meaningful to help you. The only thing they do is apply some dampening to slow or stop harmonic frequencies that build under certain circumstances which generally involve improper loading and/or excessive ball height. It's equivalent to using shock absorbers to dampen an unbalanced tire. Balancing the tire is a lot better idea.
Click to expand...

Okay, so I'm not trying to be aggravating, but I'm trying to understand this and my understanding of physics leads me to believe that sudden movements to avoid accidents can lead to extreme swaying which could cause a trailer to fish tail and then lead to additional trouble. After reading your post it sounds like you are saying sway control doesn't help in those potential fish tail situations and it's more to help control mild swaying or as you put it "harmonic frequencies."

If you statement is true and I and I am understanding you correctly then this just doesn't make sense at all. I thought sway control was to keep your trailer from fish tailing in a bad situation along with keeping it from mildly swaying...

UNLESS you are stating a fish tail incident will not occur if it's loaded properly which negates the sway conversation... It just seems the reading I have done and youtube videos I've watched are contrary. I'M NOT SAYING YOUR WRONG. I'm just not sure if I understand you completely or something. It just doesn't make sense.
 
The side mount sway control type devices are just a telescoping link with friction brake internally. Think of them like a very crude shock absorber. An actual shock absorber would probably do a very good job of the same thing.

With a trailer that weighs a few thousand lbs and has a lot of leverage compared to the location of that link, the sway control isn't strong enough to control a situation like a quick swerve. I don't think you'll really even know it's there. Same thing for emergency stopping. If the trailer is out of position and is going to want to "jack knife" on you - the little sway controller isn't going to do anything to help. Your vehicle skid control will probably do a lot more to keep your 4runner pointed the right way and the trailer behind you.

It works to dampen this situation:<iframe width="854" height="510" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6y6EsuH9_g8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> - which is almost always a function of poor trailer loading or design. It works here because it stops the harmonic frequency from building at the very early stages so it only takes a little bit of force at that point to stop it. Think of this as dampening the system at the 5-6 second mark. By the 10 second mark it's too late. Once you're into a sway situation, it's very difficult to stop - often applying the brakes will amplify it rather than slow it. Usually if you have trailer brakes - you apply ONLY the trailer brakes manually and it will straighten out and let you stop. Without trailer brakes it pretty tricky to get yourself out of. The best bet is to recognize it very early and rectify it before you get to the point in the video where you can't stop. Properly loaded trailers don't exhibit this type of behavior. They naturally stabilize themselves and eliminate the purpose of a dampener device.

With most trailers, it's just a matter of loading properly. Unfortunately camp trailers are notoriously poorly balanced for towing due to the design limitation of wanting light tongue weight and often significant weight behind the rear axle. There's probably not much you can do with an existing rv trailer other than moving the axle location - and that's a lot of work. What you can do for the tow vehicle is make sure you have an appropriate height drop hitch. Hitch height is important to balance - many trucks are way too high for the trailer's design. After that you're probably looking at a bandaid if you do have sway problems. Hopefully you won't.

The built in sway control works like this:
<iframe width="854" height="510" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/GTsWfuJfJtM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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kittyhawksurf said:
I called the dealership to ask about the "standard sway control" and he had no idea and stated I didn't have it. I don't believe him and am nearly certain there is some electronic sway control.
Click to expand...

Yup, here it is in the manual, page 259 in mine, under Driving assist systems.

◆ Trailer Sway Control
Helps the driver to control trailer sway by selectively applying brake
pressure for individual wheels and reducing engine torque when
trailer sway is detected.
Trailer Sway Control is part of the VSC system and will not operate
if VSC is turned off or experiences a malfunction.
 
just a few things...although JetBoy has covered them all in good fashion, and I agree with his recommendations.

-Tongue weight, and as much as you can handle, is your friend. It will keep you connected and centered during a tight spot, and not get the azz end going crazy all over the place. I tow 2600# on a regular basis, I'm at 400+ on tongue weight....I have heavy duty springs, and airbags

-A good weight distributing hitch will help to marry the truck and trailer together (although I'm an old school, die hard Reese guy)

-LT tires....your beefier sidewalls and higher pressure will only enhance your towing experience, and provide a higher level of control should the fit hit the shan

-Nothing, but nothing, will compete or compare with maximum stopping room, traffic anticipation, and total concentration while towing. These will prevent 99.9% of your problems...but as you know, you can't deflect the human factor no matter how much you plan.....the only time some azzwipe will pull out in front of you is if you have a fully loaded trailer.

good luck
 
Thanks for posting this. Sway control makes sense now. First video seems to be a bit of an extreme case: short wheelbase and lightweight vehicle, lots of weight at the back of the trailer and probably no trailer brakes. Looks like another video from eastern Europe and the vehicle seems to be Lada Niva. Those things are tiny - under 2700 lbs curb weight!

I am about to pull palomino camper myself for the first time. It is a lot lighter than the OP's. I believe 2200 lbs max weight loaded. So far I have pulled it going no more than 50 mph and with my primus IQ controller now installed it felt just right. No plans to install anything else so far. I believe trailer sway control via VSC combined with properly set proportional brake controller should have me covered in my case.
 
Jetboy said:
The side mount sway control type devices are just a telescoping link with friction brake internally. Think of them like a very crude shock absorber. An actual shock absorber would probably do a very good job of the same thing.
Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time to explain all this. I definitely understand it better now.

Thanks everyone else for their input as well. Good stuff.
 
darrylj said:
Yup, here it is in the manual, page 259 in mine, under Driving assist systems.

◆ Trailer Sway Control
Helps the driver to control trailer sway by selectively applying brake pressure for individual wheels and reducing engine torque when trailer sway is detected.
Trailer Sway Control is part of the VSC system and will not operate if VSC is turned off or experiences a malfunction.
Click to expand...

No mention of Trailer Sway Control in the 2013 manual.
 
Jetboy said:
With most trailers, it's just a matter of loading properly. Unfortunately camp trailers are notoriously poorly balanced for towing due to the design limitation of wanting light tongue weight and often significant weight behind the rear axle. There's probably not much you can do with an existing rv trailer other than moving the axle location - and that's a lot of work. What you can do for the tow vehicle is make sure you have an appropriate height drop hitch. Hitch height is important to balance - many trucks are way too high for the trailer's design. After that you're probably looking at a bandaid if you do have sway problems.
Click to expand...
A stable trailer is simply a function of moment of inertia, I, (yaw plane) vs the tongue weight - using a simplified model*. For a given I, you need a certain %tongue weight, TW, for the trailer to be stable (ie not oscillate out of control like the video above). In that video, you can see that trailer has a very large I value due to the long planks. Not enough TW and it goes to hell.

In Europe, RV trailer manufactures understand this stability criterion. Since most people over there don't own F-250s (or even 4Runners), manufs design their trailers in such a way that the I value is minimized. All the heavy stuff (water tanks, propane tanks, heavy furniture, etc) is located near the trailer CG. Thus, you can have a 5-8% TW and still be perfectly stable. Allowing you to tow a 2400lb trailer with your Corolla and not sag like crazy.


*Simple criterion:

m*a*b > I is stable

Where,
I = trailer moment of inertia
m = trailer mass
a = distance from hitch ball to CG
b = distance from CG to axle
 
Thanks for that explanation. It made me take a look at Karnopp's book on stability. Certainly not something I would otherwise do.

To clarify just a little for folks who might casually read this. a and b are assuming the center of gravity is ahead of the axle.

One thing that should be clear when using the formula is that the more complex version has a velocity component as well. At slow speeds all trailers are stable. There's a critical speed at which inherently unstable (as per the equation) pass from stability to instability. These are of course the most dangerous - when instability presents its self at 70mph. If the trailer is inherently unstable but doesn't present instability until 120mph - hopefully you'll never find out.
 
Too big. You want your WDH to be as closely matched to your trailer/tongue weight as possible or it won't distribute the weight properly.

I suggest contacting the etrailer techs with your specs and they will recommend the most suitable WDH for your needs.
 
kittyhawksurf said:
FA FA FA FA Found a sollution. Only took forever. My camper couldn't handle the regular WDH brackets. Here it is:

https://www.etrailer.com/p-BXW0551.html

Blue Ox SwayPro Weight Distribution w/ Sway Control - Bolt On - Trunnion - 6,000 lbs GTW, 550 lbs TW
Click to expand...

I just finished installing this today and took it for a nice little test run. It worked perfectly. Usually I can notice just a little bit of sway about 50 mph, but I went much faster to test it and there was absolutely no sway. And I also noticed there was no bucking as I have felt before.

If anyone get's interested I found this on several website for $600, but got it on eBay for $255 including freight shipping. It was returned by a customer that upgraded to a bigger one. "refurbished"

This worked perfectly.
 
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