Why are dealers so uneducated?

[el_kab0ng]

Got a friend of mine kicking the tires on the right kind of T4R that meets his agenda. He's keenly interested in the KDSS option I have on mine (and understands if he goes the TRD Pro route, KDSS isn't feasible), but the dealer is giving him conflicting information. Specifically, that KDSS doesn't 'smooth out the ride at all' and isn't worth the money.

Now I can tell alot of you out there are screaming bullshit right about now as those of us with KDSS do notice a difference on long haul trips and in the corners more than we do the sway bar disconnect, but why would a dealer avoid a sale by saying stuff like that? Is it due to lack of education or just trying to avoid the hassle of ordering one in from Japan because they don't stock KDSS enabled T4Rs?

In any event, we are planning a trip to said dealer in my T4R so I can hear it from the horse's mouth and then kick his smart balls all the way up to his smart mouth.

 

[wadle5]

Is it due to lack of education or just trying to avoid the hassle of ordering one in from Japan because they don't stock KDSS enabled T4Rs?

In any event, we are planning a trip to said dealer in my T4R so I can hear it from the horse's mouth and then kick his smart balls all the way up to his smart mouth.

It is definitely due to the latter. Of course they don't want to order take a minimal deposit only to see a return on the sale several months down the road. They want to get him in the vehicle and sold TODAY.
You are right on with the KDSS being an awesome piece ingenuity. If it wasn't that great why is it a trickle down from the flagship Landcruisers and Lexus GX470s?
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_Dynamic_Suspension_System


Also reference page 5 of their own e-brochure: "Available Kinetic Dynamic Suspension System (KDSS)allows each wheel to respond to the terrain separately."
https://www.toyota.com/4runner/ebrochure

I mean I guess you could argue if KDSS is so bad how come they can't keep enough in inventory. Either way good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[ToyoT4R]

Most are just salespeople. Doesn't matter if they're selling cars, bicycles, clothes, or rubber dog shit out of Hong Kong. They only know enough to sell to the average consumer but you, along with most of us here, are enthusiasts so we will surely know more than them.

 

[philsey]

Got a friend of mine kicking the tires on the right kind of T4R that meets his agenda. He's keenly interested in the KDSS option I have on mine (and understands if he goes the TRD Pro route, KDSS isn't feasible), but the dealer is giving him conflicting information. Specifically, that KDSS doesn't 'smooth out the ride at all' and isn't worth the money.

Now I can tell alot of you out there are screaming bullshit right about now as those of us with KDSS do notice a difference on long haul trips and in the corners more than we do the sway bar disconnect, but why would a dealer avoid a sale by saying stuff like that? Is it due to lack of education or just trying to avoid the hassle of ordering one in from Japan because they don't stock KDSS enabled T4Rs?

In any event, we are planning a trip to said dealer in my T4R so I can hear it from the horse's mouth and then kick his smart balls all the way up to his smart mouth.

That's a silly waste of time. You prove nothing, you gain nothing, move on.

Are you sure this dealer can even sell KDSS? Regardless that Toyota builds it, some regions simply choose to not sell it.

If they CAN sell it, forget the sales guy, he is not there to inform, he's an order taker with no authority. He's trained to engage you, elicit information, and hope you are not well-informed ..... AND sell what they have. Find a sales manager and ask him if he wants your sale or not.

Is this the only dealer in town?

 

[el_kab0ng]

That's a silly waste of time. You prove nothing, you gain nothing, move on.

It's my time to waste, not yours. If the guy we speak to gets an education, we've helped future customers who don't have the benefit of community wisdom from this forum.

 

[philsey]

If the guy we speak to gets an education, we've helped future customers who don't have the benefit of community wisdom from this forum.

Well, that's a little different tone than ....

.... and then kick his smart balls all the way up to his smart mouth.

You're right though, I'm sure he'll be a much better salesman when you've imparted your wisdom..... assuming he still has his balls.

 

[DavidR1]

Does anybody go to the dealer and actually expect them to be informed about the car they are selling?

Do your research ahead of time and go in knowing what you want. These are sales people, nothing more. Toyota (nor any dealership) is going to invest money in educating these guys, the turnover rate is to high to bother.

 

[theoutbackdream]

You've got to remember that a sales rep is often some average joe who was already looking for a job in the first place, throwing resumes out left and right most likely. With that being said, they aren't expected to know anything about the car. Instead, they are expected to be able to sell a car, so the faster they can sell you a car, especially at a higher price, the more money they can pocket as most dealers work on a commission basis. Also, the "flow" of cars on the dealer lot = the "flow" of income for them. Meaning, if a car even sits at a dealer for, IIRC, more than 2 weeks, they already are loosing money on it in a way.

So for them to take their time to order a T4R with KDSS will take MORE time and leave another car sitting on the dealer lot than another person just wanting a T4R that doesn't have KDSS and sitting on their lot at the present time.

 

[mnofpeace]

I dont want to be disprespectful to 'sales' guys...but in any industry, the sales guy is the guy who is good with talking, and convincing someone else to spend money...not necessarily the person who is the most knowledgable about the product.

In my line of work, a network engineer for a large scale ISP, the only way to describe my job to people who dont understand how the internet truly works is to say '25-30 of my closest friends and i make the internet work'. Let one of our sales force call into our Ops Center, someone who also works for the same company, and its instantly like teaching a house cat to do algebra. yes, they sell it, that doesn't mean they know how it works or what any potential customer can do with it. :rockthrow:

I had a similar situation, i had researched the Runner for months/years to know the difference in trim level, know how hard or easy it was to operate, know what it was truly capable of, to know that i still wouldnt know enough because of forums like this one...where guys can give you new info even after all of the research...and found my sales guy to not know an ounce of what i knew, and i corrected him on several points. And this was just to buy a simple SR5 base with 4WD and 3rd row.

...to be honest, i'd be almost afraid to see how much a sales guy doesnt know about a LC or LX level rig. :doh:

 

[1engineer]

Got a friend of mine kicking the tires on the right kind of T4R that meets his agenda. He's keenly interested in the KDSS option I have on mine (and understands if he goes the TRD Pro route, KDSS isn't feasible), but the dealer is giving him conflicting information. Specifically, that KDSS doesn't 'smooth out the ride at all' and isn't worth the money.

Now I can tell alot of you out there are screaming bullshit right about now as those of us with KDSS do notice a difference on long haul trips and in the corners more than we do the sway bar disconnect, but why would a dealer avoid a sale by saying stuff like that? Is it due to lack of education or just trying to avoid the hassle of ordering one in from Japan because they don't stock KDSS enabled T4Rs?

In any event, we are planning a trip to said dealer in my T4R so I can hear it from the horse's mouth and then kick his smart balls all the way up to his smart mouth.

1. KDSS does not smooth out the ride on the highway. It actually makes the ride "rougher" in the sense that it tightens up the sway bar. Now, it will corner with reduced body roll at speed and it will allow more articulation off road under 12 mph but thats it.

2. My local salesman is a good guy. Has a BA from a state university in something. They sell only Toyota products and trade ins from all makes. I have asked him this question before. He told me that, while I know a lot about one vehicle, they have to know about a lot of vehicles. I didn't buy that either, so I checked.
Toyota currently sells:
8 Types of cars
2 Types of trucks
6 Types of CUV/SUV
9 Types of Hybrids
4 New Upcoming vehicles
That's a total of 29 different vehicles. Some vehicles have six configurations. Some have eight. Let's say six is average just for clarity. That's 29*6=174 different configurations they need to know. Sure, the 174 different configurations are all based on building from a base of 29 different vehicles, but the configurations can vary a lot! And, many of them change yearly. We also know how "good" the literature is from Toyota. Yeah right. I don't know about you but knowing every detail about 174 of anything is quite a task. So, now I give my guy a pass if he does not know every detail of a vehicle that I have been studying for weeks.

 

[djhuff7]

Most salespeople are what you describe as order takers. The smart ones won't even engage you in discussing the car once they realize you actually know what you are looking at and what you want, they'll just work the rapport and make it so you ONLY want to do business with them. It's all a show, ignore it and focus on the $$.

I will say, there are some pros out there, the first dealer I went to, the salesman had only been there a year, but spent the previous 10 years at the BMW dealer next door. Only moved when the BMW dealer was sold and new management made some changes he didn't like. He was very humble about how much he knew about Toyotas in general, but had clearly done his research on the truck before I came in and was able to speak intelligently about the options and price walk between the packages. Unfortunately this knowledge wasn't worth the $827 more they wanted for the truck then the next guy, but I did let his manager know he did a fantastic job with the sales presentation, even though that is worth $0.00.

 

[philsey]

caveat emptor Latin: "Let the buyer beware".

"The principle that the buyer alone is responsible for checking the quality and suitability of goods before a purchase is made."

 

[Ausumm]

Gowhy would a dealer avoid a sale by saying stuff like that? Is it due to lack of education or just trying to avoid the hassle of ordering one in from Japan because they don't stock KDSS enabled T4Rs?

Not so much that they don't want to order one,
simply that their boss is breathing down their neck to sell what already on the lot.
You would have gotten the same resistance if you wanted a red 4R, and they didn't have one in stock.
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[philsey]

Most salespeople are what you describe as order takers. The smart ones won't even engage you in discussing the car once they realize you actually know what you are looking at and what you want, they'll just work the rapport and make it so you ONLY want to do business with them. It's all a show, ignore it and focus on the $$.

I will say, there are some pros out there, the first dealer I went to, the salesman had only been there a year, but spent the previous 10 years at the BMW dealer next door. Only moved when the BMW dealer was sold and new management made some changes he didn't like. He was very humble about how much he knew about Toyotas in general, but had clearly done his research on the truck before I came in and was able to speak intelligently about the options and price walk between the packages. Unfortunately this knowledge wasn't worth the $827 more they wanted for the truck then the next guy, but I did let his manager know he did a fantastic job with the sales presentation, even though that is worth $0.00.

What an irony! Here's a thread full of b!tch!ng and whining about the quality/knowledge of car salespeople - and up pops the very reason why the problem exists.

What do you want people? Knowledge/experience/professionalism or price? You can't have it both ways.

 

[Dawyd]

Pay is not high enough to warrant such a depth of knowledge, especially for products that evolve almost yearly.

The people who are able to educate themselves on the products usually find better paying employment before reaching a fuller understanding. Most of who I meet at dealerships are young people just out of college/uni looking to make ends meet for a short period. They aren't invested much with one foot always out the door. The other type are older and focus on pushing the generic models (rav4 corolla camry), with no vested interest in vehicle specs.
I suppose it makes sense when they have 20 rav4s on the showroom and 50 more on the lot compared to four runners a couple tacos and tundras.

I don't expect the person at the music store to know anything other than what the pricetag says about each respective guitar. He/She will use some trendy jargon in an attempt to impress me, but it always backfires as they get their facts mixed up.

Music Store experience:

"I'm looking for a neck-thru hard-tail with 24 ss frets MIJ or MIA"

- Hmm, have you tried the indonesian made squier strat? they are our best sellers.

My Toyota Dealership experience:

"I want the 97 4runner limited with the e-locker out back"

- Come into my office...can I interest you in Fincancing for a Rav4?

 

[RUNTHAT]

There's so much logic behind 1engineer's post compared to the OP. It's distracting.
ound:

 

[djhuff7]

What an irony! Here's a thread full of b!tch!ng and whining about the quality/knowledge of car salespeople - and up pops the very reason why the problem exists.

What do you want people? Knowledge/experience/professionalism or price? You can't have it both ways.

I want it all!!! If I'm spending $40k, I want someone I talk to to at least know what I am buying.

I have long thought that dealers should have specialists for certain cars / trucks, but realize it is difficult to staff that way. When I sold electronics at a now closed box store, we had our areas, I sold home theater sound and speakers, but if someone wanted a TV to go with it, I had to pass him off to a TV guy and we'd split the spiff.

 

[wadle5]

1. KDSS does not smooth out the ride on the highway. It actually makes the ride "rougher" in the sense that it tightens up the sway bar. Now, it will corner with reduced body roll at speed and it will allow more articulation off road under 12 mph but thats it.

2. My local salesman is a good guy. Has a BA from a state university in something. They sell only Toyota products and trade ins from all makes. I have asked him this question before. He told me that, while I know a lot about one vehicle, they have to know about a lot of vehicles. I didn't buy that either, so I checked.
Toyota currently sells:
8 Types of cars
2 Types of trucks
6 Types of CUV/SUV
9 Types of Hybrids
4 New Upcoming vehicles
That's a total of 29 different vehicles. Some vehicles have six configurations. Some have eight. Let's say six is average just for clarity. That's 29*6=174 different configurations they need to know. Sure, the 174 different configurations are all based on building from a base of 29 different vehicles, but the configurations can vary a lot! And, many of them change yearly. We also know how "good" the literature is from Toyota. Yeah right. I don't know about you but knowing every detail about 174 of anything is quite a task. So, now I give my guy a pass if he does not know every detail of a vehicle that I have been studying for weeks.

While you can draw out the numbers and make it seem drastic the reality is each configuration of the vehicle never hits the lot, the reality is while there are different configurations, a lot of those carry over through the various models. In fact a lot of the configurations are very similar...one may have the entune package...another "configuration" may have the entune package AND a sunroof? The more popular options obviously being on more models and we can just zero out no option base model cars as dealerships dont seem to have those on the lot ever, because they want to sell you what you don't need. I'm just saying while there are many configurations/options, a lot of it is carry over from the different models, and while you don't need to KNOW everything in detail knowing a little about a lot or even knowing a little about popular options is what makes them a good salesman. In regards to higher education as we know that is all relative. He could have gone to school and majored in women studies, but that doesn't matter. In my dealings and working in the industry sadly the people that are the best car salesman are actually the ones who don't have "higher" education, but the ones who have the rise and grind mentality and built a great book and customer base. Just my .02.

You can't have it both ways.

Why not........I mean it literally is there job, and what you are paying them for. You know an exchange of monies for a service?

Pay is not high enough to warrant such a depth of knowledge, especially for products that evolve almost yearly.

The people who are able to educate themselves on the products usually find better paying employment before reaching a fuller understanding. Most of who I meet at dealerships are young people just out of college/uni looking to make ends meet for a short period. They aren't invested much with one foot always out the door. The other type are older and focus on pushing the generic models (rav4 corolla camry), with no vested interest in vehicle specs.
I suppose it makes sense when they have 20 rav4s on the showroom and 50 more on the lot compared to four runners a couple tacos and tundras.
?

Not necessarily the people who educate themselves and haev a full understanding of what is on their lot, price points, wiggle room, options, and actually listen to the customer love the industry because they can make a killing not just on moving a single unit, but a great experience leads to referrals. And you reference products that evolve almost yearly? Do you mean drastic changes in styling of body panels, or maybe they change the placement of knobs and switches? Use a different material on the cabin? I mean just look at the 4runner the product stays the same for almost 7 year stints, with slight changes. To think that it doesn't warrant the depth of knowledge these guys are at the dealership on average over 10 hours a day staring the product, reading up on the product, being presented on new upgrades. Again its their job and that if they want to be successful and have a higher close ratio it is in their best interest in keeping abreast with their industry. The hard part is already done the person with the money is right in front of you. If you dont know your way around the product or why its superior than a competing dealership even a competing salesmen in your dealership will gladly help them.

 

[philsey]

I want it all!!! If I'm spending $40k, I want someone I talk to to at least know what I am buying.

I have long thought that dealers should have specialists for certain cars / trucks, but realize it is difficult to staff that way.

So, hello DJ, I'm Phil, XYZ Toyota's 4Runner specialist. I've been the Specialist for 5 years, and I know the product line thoroughly. I have been tested and awarded Toyota's Five Star Gold Super-duper plaque every year.

Now, to be The Specialist I earn a slightly higher commission than Joe Schmoe over there, which of course will be reflected in your price.

DJ would you like to come to my office and get started, or shall I introduce you to Joe?

 

[wadle5]

So, hello DJ, I'm Phil, XYZ Toyota's 4Runner specialist. I've been the Specialist for 5 years, and I know the product line thoroughly. I have been tested and awarded Toyota's Five Star Gold Super-duper plaque every year.

Now, to be The Specialist I earn a slightly higher commission than Joe Schmoe over there, which of course will be reflected in your price.

DJ would you like to come to my office and get started, or shall I introduce you to Joe?

I dont think you understand how dealerships work....the only way that salesman A get a higher commission than salesman B is that A didn't want to come down on price for the consumer.All sales persons have a list of cars on the lot(at least a good salesperson does). This list shows all the units, the price listed, mileage, etc, but more importantly it has the black book value. This is the value or bottom dollar the dealership is going to go on it or what they originally paid on it dependent on the dealership. So the salesperson can wheel and deal within those limits. The reality is most get stuck on highest dollar and only taking off a small amount, where good sales people will take a lesser commission up front(hell honestly show them what they paid for it) get the client in the car and rather move on to selling more units and again building up a client base instead of the petty going back and forth with offers and prices.