Would you trade your NA v6 for a turbo 4cyl?

[Jetboy]

I've been reading more lately about turbo v6 engines being developed by Toyota for the next generation of Lexus models. And there's already the little 2.0L turbo 4cyl. And it got me thinking that a turbo 2TR-FE might be a significant improvement over the NA GR. The power peak is about the same with mild boost, but the curve is a lot better. It would have about 50% more power at 2500rpms. I know there are at least a few 4cyl 2010 4runners out there, and probably pretty cheap too. What I'd really be curious about and I have yet to find any info on is the mileage of a low pressure (5psi) turbo system on a 2TR-FE in a 4runner.

Thoughts? Would you take a turbo 2.5-3.0L 4cyl over the v6 if it were offered?

 

[Brandonium]

Turbo-Diesel yes but not a petrol version.

 

[Jetboy]

I'm pretty sure diesel isn't going to happen. With the EPA cracking down on diesel tuning - likely entirely banning it soon and the ability of private groups to sue the diesel tuners for EPA violations, I don't think diesels have a big future in the USA.

As far as every model I've calculated, there's not a diesel available that will break even on cost over its life for people driving 10-20k miles per year. So they're basically all slower and more expensive to own. Hard to justify bringing new diesels to this market.

 

[MTN4RNR]

Personally, I believe that low pressure forced induction, low displacement engines will start taking over most of the car/SUV/light truck applications for their ability to provide power when you want it, or economy if you're light on the throttle. Turbo technology is getting much better, and if Toyota offered a typical "over engineered, overbuilt for it's purpose" type of turbo engine for the 4Runner I wouldn't hesitate myself. But I'm locked into the V-6 as I am pinstriped as a MoFo :clap2:

 

[wfo9]

I'm pretty sure diesel isn't going to happen. With the EPA cracking down on diesel tuning - likely entirely banning it soon and the ability of private groups to sue the diesel tuners for EPA violations, I don't think diesels have a big future in the USA.

As far as every model I've calculated, there's not a diesel available that will break even on cost over its life for people driving 10-20k miles per year. So they're basically all slower and more expensive to own. Hard to justify bringing new diesels to this market.

You are correct. Diesel will never happen here from Toyota ... so people need to stop wishing and dreaming about the joy of 170hp (it's not that great).

As far as the little turbo goes.. IDK, displacement is king for heavy rigs (even if you have FI you need some reasonable displacement). Maybe a 3.0 turbo 4 would have enough grunt to pedal one of these pigs, but hard to pack that much into 4cyl gasser with a short enough stroke to keep everything well balanced. A turbo V6 would be much better.

BTW, Pretty sure all the 4cyl 5th gens were manuals... I've never seen one in the flesh.

 

[Brandonium]

Someone should tell Fiat/Chrysler and GM this as they have either released newer diesel versions or they are currently working to add them to their lineup (See the Colorado and new Wrangler).

But yes, I do realize Toyota would never do this. The remainder of the world might but no, not here.

I'm pretty sure diesel isn't going to happen. With the EPA cracking down on diesel tuning - likely entirely banning it soon and the ability of private groups to sue the diesel tuners for EPA violations, I don't think diesels have a big future in the USA.

As far as every model I've calculated, there's not a diesel available that will break even on cost over its life for people driving 10-20k miles per year. So they're basically all slower and more expensive to own. Hard to justify bringing new diesels to this market.

 

[delloro]

As prejudiced as I am against Ford, and overstressed turbo motors, their ecoboost seems to work well enough in the F150.

As CAFE standards increase every bit of marginal efficiency becomes more important, and turbos are a significant efficiency tool.

 

[Brandonium]

Of all the vehicles that I have owned in the past 15 years I'd have to say that half or more have been Turbo. I've never had issues with them. From Saab, to Volvo to Ford. It's a proven technology that has been locked down by advancements in ECU tech. Sure, it's not for everyone but that'll always be the case.

Thing is, I prefer a turbo where it's used to get additional power and NOT where they are used to get the same power that you used to get with a larger displacement engine. So if they were to drop a Turbo-4 into the 4Runner it would be insulting if it made less than what you are currently getting in the 4.0

As prejudiced as I am against Ford, and overstressed turbo motors, their ecoboost seems to work well enough in the F150.

As CAFE standards increase every bit of marginal efficiency becomes more important, and turbos are a significant efficiency tool.

 

[Jetboy]

I think Toyota will be very conservative. Could you imagine Toyota publicly stating that it has turbos with only a 175k expected service life like Ford has with the ecoboost? Never gonna happen. Ford customers will accept that. I don't think toyota customers would. That said, lots of turbo engines last a long time. No reason a low psi turbo system can't be reliable. I've even wondered once my warranty runs out whether the 1GR could handle just maybe 3psi. I don't care at all about more peak hp. I'd like more hp at 2-3500 rpms though so I can maintain 5th gear on the highway.

I generally agree that a small v6 would still be a better turbo engine, but they're significantly more complex to manufacture when you are then needing two turbos for a v engine. That's why I'm thinking a larger displacement 4cyl will be the chosen solution for the 4runner if it ever exists. If the 2.0T in the Lexus is 258hp, just a scale up to a 2.7L should be in the ball park of 350hp. And that matches pretty closely with what the low pressure turbo 2.7's are making. IIRC 6psi will net around 250rwhp, so maybe 320-330 engine hp? Ford's 2.7L v6 is 325. So I'd expect something right in that range.

What's compelling to me is 180hp at 2500rpms. Compare that to maybe 100hp at 2500rpms with our 1GR. That is what I find missing in the GR. Same reason people like diesels - it's the turbo more than the fuel. Ever drive a non-turbo diesel? They suck. I owned a Ford non-turbo diesel for a short time. My 22r would out run it.

 

[user name:]

Id be happier with a 5.0 IS-F based v8

 

[Brandonium]

One thing that surprises me as this will be my first official Toyota is that there's not as much engine modding going on as you see with other MFG's. You see people dropping Turbo's in VW powerplants, Honda Powerplants, etc but I've not come across a single turbo setup on a Gen 5. Perhaps they are all still too young..or the tuning resources do not exist.

Even TRD dropped out of supporting any type of additional HP endeavor on the Gen 5.

I think Toyota will be very conservative. Could you imagine Toyota publicly stating that it has turbos with only a 175k expected service life like Ford has with the ecoboost? Never gonna happen. Ford customers will accept that. I don't think toyota customers would. That said, lots of turbo engines last a long time. No reason a low psi turbo system can't be reliable. I've even wondered once my warranty runs out whether the 1GR could handle just maybe 3psi. I don't care at all about more peak hp. I'd like more hp at 2-3500 rpms though so I can maintain 5th gear on the highway.

 

[Brandonium]

Of course you would.. who doesn't want a v8?

Id be happier with a 5.0 IS-F based v8

 

[blacktrail]

Of course you would.. who doesn't want a v8?

Even the 4.7 would be nice


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[user name:]

One thing that surprises me as this will be my first official Toyota is that there's not as much engine modding going on as you see with other MFG's. You see people dropping Turbo's in VW powerplants, Honda Powerplants, etc but I've not come across a single turbo setup on a Gen 5. Perhaps they are all still too young..or the tuning resources do not exist.

Even TRD dropped out of supporting any type of additional HP endeavor on the Gen 5.

Tuning is tough. Ive often mulled over slapping a turbo on my rig. most people utilize piggy back setups for their Toyota's with bigger injectors or adding a 7th injector in the intake for more fuel. No one has cracked the toyota ECU coding. most other vehicles can be tuned much easier.

Turbo Kit for 1GR...any interest??? - Page 3 - Toyota FJ Cruiser Forum

 

[Jetboy]

One thing that surprises me as this will be my first official Toyota is that there's not as much engine modding going on as you see with other MFG's. You see people dropping Turbo's in VW powerplants, Honda Powerplants, etc but I've not come across a single turbo setup on a Gen 5. Perhaps they are all still too young..or the tuning resources do not exist.

Even TRD dropped out of supporting any type of additional HP endeavor on the Gen 5.

My understanding from reading, not experience, is that the internals are not strong enough for much boost and it's basically maxed out on power potential normally aspirated already. And they're kinda expensive engines. I've seen a few earlier model GR engines with twin turbos making right at the 1,000hp mark. One of the Scion GT race cars has a 990hp 4.0L, but it's pretty rare.

The other issue is that the 4runner has more than enough peak hp. I've never really wanted for more power in an absolute sense. I'm just not in love with the power delivery/gearing/transmission shift logic combination. It's not bad. Just not great. And I've made it worse myself by adding bigger tires and lift.

 

[Swacer]

No way. I had a Lexus NX200t, and I could not stand that motor. The lag in the boost was terrible and it often felt like it couldn't get out of its own way. That motor was one of the main reasons I dumped that car after 9 months of ownership.

I was able to get 28mpg from it driving to work (minimal boost), but could only muster 23mpg on the highway. My 4R does 21mpg to work and 20-21 on highway. So I think the mpg is a wash.

Overall, I would never go to a boosted motor again unless we are talking supercharged. I find myself saying most of the time I wish this thing had a v8.

 

[Brandonium]

What was the last turbo vehicle that Toyota made? Was it the Supra? How long did those setups last (excluding those scooped up by the fast and furious crowd)?

I suppose at some point Toyota had a standard for dropping Turbo's in vehicles.

My understanding from reading, not experience, is that the internals are not strong enough for much boost and it's basically maxed out on power potential normally aspirated already. And they're kinda expensive engines. I've seen a few earlier model GR engines with twin turbos making right at the 1,000hp mark. One of the Scion GT race cars has a 990hp 4.0L, but it's pretty rare.

The other issue is that the 4runner has more than enough peak hp. I've never really wanted for more power in an absolute sense. I'm just not in love with the power delivery/gearing/transmission shift logic combination. It's not bad. Just not great. And I've made it worse myself by adding bigger tires and lift.

 

[Jetboy]

I don't really know much about toyota turbo gasoline engines other than the supra and the turbo 22r engines. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a stock supra turbo. They have millions of turbo diesels that are very reliable.

Otherwise it's been basically all N/A engines. Even the LFA is normally aspirated.

 

[Omar RVA]

You are correct. Diesel will never happen here from Toyota ... so people need to stop wishing and dreaming about the joy of 170hp (it's not that great).

As far as the little turbo goes.. IDK, displacement is king for heavy rigs (even if you have FI you need some reasonable displacement). Maybe a 3.0 turbo 4 would have enough grunt to pedal one of these pigs, but hard to pack that much into 4cyl gasser with a short enough stroke to keep everything well balanced. A turbo V6 would be much better.

BTW, Pretty sure all the 4cyl 5th gens were manuals... I've never seen one in the flesh.

Definitely agree on the fact that the small, world market diesels are romanticized here.

Side note: all of the 4 cylinder 5th gens I've seen (so like 2 or 3 on autotrader) are auto 4x2s. I don't think there was ever a manual transmission option. They did, however come with factory 4.10 gearing.

OA

 

[marshal]

just to stir the diesel pot again, and we all know toyota won't do anything

but these are vehicles slated (official, already released or rumored) for release with diesels this year or next

New Jeep Wrangler and Wrangler pickup
Chevy Colorado
Ford F150
Ford Ranger
Chevy Cruze
Land Rover LR4
Range Rover sport and Range Rover
VW Jetta, golf and Passat