10,000 lbs vs 12.000 lbs Warn Zeon winch

[Okki]

Been working on getting my bumper build determined and scheduled. AutoAnything is having a good deal going, so the question is, 10k or 12k winch?

I've emailed Nathan at [MENTION=64712]CBI OffRoad Fab[/MENTION] because he's building the bumpers, but what do the smart people here think? What are the negatives to the 12k winch? I prefer to buy right once, and usually overkill is not a bad thing.

What you say?

Okki

 

[Jeremy556]

I have not looked into the differences between the 10 and 12K Zeons, but you're probably better off with the 10K. If it is like many of their products, they are the same winch with different gearing, probably a shorter rope on the higher rated winch. The lower rated winch will give faster line speeds, and if it has more rope, gives you more flexibility.

 

[USMCRUNNER]

Think you will be fine with the 10k. If your getting the current design CBI makes for the front your going to be very happy! Checked out there shop a couple weeks ago and got to see both bumpers in the showroom. I left my credit card home or I would have left with a front bumper haha!

 

[BigredTEX]

The thing to consider is not the weight of your rig, but the weight of the rigs of the people you wheel with. I've got a Warn 9.5 Ti and have never had any problem winching myself out of trouble, but have stalled this winch pulling others out of trouble. I've had to pull a built 200 series Land Cruiser up a ledge and an LJ Rubicon up a wall that really taxed my winch. I wouldn't hesitate to go 12K. I thought 9,500# would be plenty, but have been proven otherwise. Bigger is better.

 

[Titanpat57]

People rarely realize that a winch loses mechanical advantage after the first couple of wraps on the drum. You can also throw a snatched block in the mix and double your pulling power.

My question would be....how many times have you needed or actually used your winch since you've owned the truck?? 1,3...never?

Get yourself a 9000 lb. Engo with synthetic and if you really feel the need to spend money get yourself another 85' extension line.

 

[Jetboy]

In my experience it's extremely rare that I've ever seen a winch stall. What I do see is winches that don't have enough rope to reach an anchor point. Or pull poorly after a short while due to undersized wiring or insufficient battery/alternator. The only way I've ever been able to stall out a warn 8,000lb (8274) was by overheating it, or running out of battery after multiple long pulls.

IMO a snatch block is $20 and should be part of your kit anyway. I'd almost always rather have an extra 100' of rope than another 2k lbs of pulling force. Just my opinion.

If your aftermarket bumper will fit an 8274, you're almost into that price range with a Zeon 12k, and the 8274 will do everything better. It will easily out pull a Zeon 12k. Otherwise I'd go for the 10k.

Good luck!

 

[Okki]

AutoAnything has synthetic rope that I'm looking to replace the steel cable with:

Mile Marker Synthetic Winch Rope
Part Number - 19-52038-100C
16,200 lbs minimum break force
Includes steel hook and reinforced loop
Spliced with 15 ft. of drum coverage rope

So that should give me 85ft of usable rope to pull. (15ft to stay wrapped on the spool.)

The price difference is negligible at the moment, so I'm not using that as a factor. How often I'll use it is not much of a factor either since A) i've already decided I'm getting one. B) better to have and not need, than need and not have.

Snatchblock, tree saver, gloves, etc will be part of the kit that goes in the truck.

Any engineering/electrical things to consider? Already have a Group 31M installed and ready to add a 35D aux battery, so that shouldn't be a concern. The size is the same, but the 12 weights 20LBS more. so nose-dive/springs may be impacted. Looks like the battery requirements are the same (650CCA).

The gear ratio seems to be the major difference:
Zeon 12: 216:1
Zeon 10: 162:1

So which speed may play a role, but how much of a factor is this? when you are winching, you are not generally in a hurry, or shouldnt be in hurry since thats when accidents happen.

Anything else I'm missing?

Okki

 

[KidVermicious]

My question is, is it possible to have too much winch? I'd hate to get into a situation where the winch was capable of destroying my truck. I wouldn't go 12k unless you knew for sure that the bumper and your truck were able to put up with that much force. And even then I'd look very carefully at the recovery points on anybody else's rig I was going to be pulling on.

But I don't know. Maybe I'm talking out my butt.

 

[Okki]

My question is, is it possible to have too much winch? I'd hate to get into a situation where the winch was capable of destroying my truck. I wouldn't go 12k unless you knew for sure that the bumper and your truck were able to put up with that much force. And even then I'd look very carefully at the recovery points on anybody else's rig I was going to be pulling on.

But I don't know. Maybe I'm talking out my butt.

Nope.. that was one of my questions as well.. at what point is what failure point the preferred option. Winch stalling out, rope breaking, recovery point breaking... and of course at what point would you compromise the bumper mounting or frame alignment of your own truck.

Okki

 

[Jetboy]

Lots of folks do it - but putting synthetic rope on a winch drum designed for wire rope may not be a durable solution. There are two issues that often come up. First, if the brake is inside the drum, it may melt the synthetic rope. Second, synthetic rope is more slippery and as a result has been known to break winch drums under some circumstances. I'd guess the warn is designed to handle it, but I would double check. If not - find a winch designed for synthetic rope.

For example:

 

[Okki]

Lots of folks do it - but putting synthetic rope on a winch drum designed for wire rope may not be a durable solution. There are two issues that often come up. First, if the brake is inside the drum, it may melt the synthetic rope. Second, synthetic rope is more slippery and as a result has been known to break winch drums under some circumstances. I'd guess the warn is designed to handle it, but I would double check. If not - find a winch designed for synthetic rope.

For example:

Thats an interesting point. the Zeon 10 Platinum comes with synthetic rope, so I'm assuming the Zeon 12 Platinum will have the same construction since the only difference according to the spec sheet is the gearing. The Mile Marker rope has a 15ft section designed especially for the drum:
Spliced with 15' of drum coverage rope - rated to 450 degrees (3/8" and 5/16" sizes only)

The Warn website does not list any warnings against using synthetic rope on the Zeon 12. but they also dont have a chat client to ask the question.... The Zeon 12 comes with roller fairlead instead of Hawse fairlead.

 

[sandcrawler]

good Q and A in this thread. i'm lurking and listening. the Zeon Platinum in a BudBuilt hidden mount would be a pretty stellar setup, i'm thinking.

it's always great to see another 5G OG who's still busy modding their 2010 to their liking.

 

[Okki]

on a side note... unless anyone else knows any differently, it appears the only difference between the Zeon 12 and Zeon 12 Platinum is the wireless remote. The cost difference is about $350, so unless there is anything else, that is one expensive gadget to have the batteries go bad in while it lays in a bag in the back of your truck layball::laugh:

I'm sure its nice to have, but not sure it's worth my money at this time.

On different side note: Nathan [MENTION=64712]CBI OffRoad Fab[/MENTION] indicated:

I think either the 10 or the 12K winch will do just fine. The 10K should be plenty sufficient but if you want the extra capacity go with the 12K. There will not be any trouble with using the larger 12K winch with the bumper.

So from a bumper fitment standpoint I should be fine.

I'm sure nobody has tested-to-failure every winch on their respective offroad bumper, so the bumper/frame damage vs winch or pulling-part failure question remains the biggest question mark.

Okki

 

[nevada]

I have not looked into the differences between the 10 and 12K Zeons, but you're probably better off with the 10K. If it is like many of their products, they are the same winch with different gearing, probably a shorter rope on the higher rated winch. The lower rated winch will give faster line speeds, and if it has more rope, gives you more flexibility.

this.

between the 2, unless you absolutely NEED the 12k winch, I would go with whichever is faster. im guessing that is the 10k.

So which speed may play a role, but how much of a factor is this? when you are winching, you are not generally in a hurry, or shouldnt be in hurry since thats when accidents happen.

Anything else I'm missing?

Okki

check line speeds. both loaded and unloaded. go with the faster winch.

Lots of folks do it - but putting synthetic rope on a winch drum designed for wire rope may not be a durable solution. There are two issues that often come up. First, if the brake is inside the drum, it may melt the synthetic rope. Second, synthetic rope is more slippery and as a result has been known to break winch drums under some circumstances. I'd guess the warn is designed to handle it, but I would double check. If not - find a winch designed for synthetic rope.

For example:

good point. that's the winch from the shootout, yes? I think when they contacted warn, they said that winch specifically is meant to run cable, and NOT rope.

Thats an interesting point. the Zeon 10 Platinum comes with synthetic rope, so I'm assuming the Zeon 12 Platinum will have the same construction since the only difference according to the spec sheet is the gearing. The Mile Marker rope has a 15ft section designed especially for the drum:
Spliced with 15' of drum coverage rope - rated to 450 degrees (3/8" and 5/16" sizes only)

The Warn website does not list any warnings against using synthetic rope on the Zeon 12. but they also dont have a chat client to ask the question.... The Zeon 12 comes with roller fairlead instead of Hawse fairlead.

call to verify.

but, go with the fastest winch. you do want line speed, it help keep you from out driving the winch.

 

[Okki]

Zeon 12
12V DC PERFORMANCE SPECS
Line Pull Lbs.(Kgs.) Line Speed FT./min(M/min.) Motor Current Pull by layer layer/Lbs(Kgs.)
0 28.1 (8.6) 66 amps 1/12000 (5440)
2000 (910) 14.2 (4.3) 141 amps 2/9894 (4488)
4000 (1810) 9.3 (2.8) 209 amps 3/8117 (3682)
6000 (2720) 7.8 (2.4) 272 amps 4/7324 (3322)
8000 (3630) 6.4 (2.0) 335 amps
10000 (4536) 4.3 (1.3) 401 amps
12000 (5443) 3.3 (1.0) 469 amps

Zeon 10s
12V DC PERFORMANCE SPECS
Line Pull Lbs.(Kgs.) Line Speed FT./min(M/min.) Motor Current Pull by layer layer/Lbs(Kgs.)
0 33 (10.27) 62 amps 1/10000 (4536)
2000 (910) 14.9 (4.5) 144 amps 2/8245 (3740)
4000 (1810) 11.2 (3.4) 215 amps 3/7014 (3181)
6000 (2720) 8.5 (2.6) 280 amps 4/6103 (2768)
8000 (3630) 6.5 (2.0) 353 amps
10000 (4536) 4.8 (1.5) 409 amps

So for 0 lbs pull, the Z10s is 5ft/min faster. for 4000 lbs pull weight, the Z10s is 3ft/min faster. So the bigger the load, the smaller the difference. At 10K lbs pull weight, the difference is 0.5 ft/minute.

[MENTION=84120]nevada[/MENTION] so why the need-for-speed? 5ft/min seems fairly trivial for a recovery action? Is lack of throttle control the main driver for selecting the faster speed?

 

[Okki]

The pull by layer (higher) and the amps drawn (lower) are better on the Z12 compared to the Z10s. Which would be in part explained by the difference in gearing.

 

[nevada]

Zeon 12
12V DC PERFORMANCE SPECS
Line Pull Lbs.(Kgs.) Line Speed FT./min(M/min.) Motor Current Pull by layer layer/Lbs(Kgs.)
0 28.1 (8.6) 66 amps 1/12000 (5440)
2000 (910) 14.2 (4.3) 141 amps 2/9894 (4488)
4000 (1810) 9.3 (2.8) 209 amps 3/8117 (3682)
6000 (2720) 7.8 (2.4) 272 amps 4/7324 (3322)
8000 (3630) 6.4 (2.0) 335 amps
10000 (4536) 4.3 (1.3) 401 amps
12000 (5443) 3.3 (1.0) 469 amps

Zeon 10s
12V DC PERFORMANCE SPECS
Line Pull Lbs.(Kgs.) Line Speed FT./min(M/min.) Motor Current Pull by layer layer/Lbs(Kgs.)
0 33 (10.27) 62 amps 1/10000 (4536)
2000 (910) 14.9 (4.5) 144 amps 2/8245 (3740)
4000 (1810) 11.2 (3.4) 215 amps 3/7014 (3181)
6000 (2720) 8.5 (2.6) 280 amps 4/6103 (2768)
8000 (3630) 6.5 (2.0) 353 amps
10000 (4536) 4.8 (1.5) 409 amps

So for 0 lbs pull, the Z10s is 5ft/min faster. for 4000 lbs pull weight, the Z10s is 3ft/min faster. So the bigger the load, the smaller the difference. At 10K lbs pull weight, the difference is 0.5 ft/minute.

@nevada so why the need-for-speed? 5ft/min seems fairly trivial for a recovery action? Is lack of throttle control the main driver for selecting the faster speed?

its situation dependent of course, but often times whenever you're using the winch for recovery, it takes a lot of the strain off the winch, if you also drive. or at the least spin the tires. but with the tires spinning, they will inevitably grab traction, and move the vehicle forward. if this happens with too slow of a winch, you will over run the winch, then you'll end up with a rats nest of cable on the drum. its a mess.


with a faster winch, it can keep up if you do end up creeping forward a bit, and prevent the mess. also, when winding the cable back on the drum after the extraction. faster line speed means it gets done sooner.


I have been in many situations where I needed to put out 80' of cable, but only needed to pull in 10' to complete the extraction. now I have 70' of cable to wind back in. no big deal if its a one time thing. but when there are multiple stucks, with multiple rigs over a short period of time, it ends up being a LOT of wasted time.



ive got a 10.5k and an 8.5k winch, the 10.5 is 19.9 fpm free spool, the 8.5 is 29.9. I like the 8.5 better, just simply due to its faster line speed. if I had to buy another one, it would be and 8.5, and I would mount the 10.5 on the rear, where it will get used less.

so like I said, for your use, unless you absolutely have to have the extra pulling power of the 12k, I would go with the 10k, strictly due to its additional speed.
for a 4runner, the 10k is more than enough. some big 4door full size, I would probably grab the 12k, just to have the extra capacity.

 

[Okki]

Ended up making the decision to go with the Zeon 10-s. Skipped the platinum remote. Nathan at CBI OffRoad Was able to match the price, so wrapping up the details tomorrow.

Thanks everyone for your input on the topic!

Okki

 

[HerT4R]

very helpful winch thread.

any reason you didn't go with an option like the superwinch tigershark 9.5 or 11.5? I've heard good stuff about that winch, and the warn price tag is really just too much for my taste...

 

[marshal]

very helpful winch thread.

any reason you didn't go with an option like the superwinch tigershark 9.5 or 11.5? I've heard good stuff about that winch, and the warn price tag is really just too much for my taste...

if speed is a concern the Warn is worth every penny. its mind numbingly fast