6th gen 2017 4R, will it exist?

[1engineer]

Interesting, I hadn't realized the CAFE standards were so "Forgiving." I knew they factored by vehicle class/size; but I didn't realize they were so flexible. But my understanding was that in 2016 with the first batch of new standards, the CAFE rules were changing some from what it used to be currently to be more strict (I could be absolutely wrong about this though, it was something I have heard in passing.) [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] I still think CAFE standards are a large factor in this as many of the "Gas Guzzlers" among many brands seem to be changing/disappearing at or very close to the 2016 deadline for the first batch of CAFE standards. That in itself is too large a coincidence to be ignored, not to mention Ford betting their golden goose on Aluminum body/framed F150's close to the 2016 deadline, something that seems to be pushed by a need to meet fuel economy standards more than a desire to be more environmentally friendly. I'm not saying that its all due to CAFE standards, but they are obviously playing a large factor in shrinking vehicles down and paring off the "gas guzzlers."

CAFE means Corporate Average Fuel Economy. For this purpose I will emphasize "Average" in the nomenclature.
This means if you manufacture 50 gas guzzlers and 500 hybrid two seaters then you are much better off CAFE wise than if you manufacture 500 gas guzzlers and 50 hybrids. Ford, GM, Chrysler (not as bad now that Fiat is bought into the mix) are much worse off than Toyota and Honda, for example. CAFE even takes into account vehicles sold overseas but the weighted average is less for these vehicles.
How does this fare for the 4Runner?
Here is an example of three Toyotas and three Fords. I tried to pick roughly the same comparative vehicles based on fuel economy:
Ford F150 to Toyota 4Runner
Ford Fiesta to Toyota Prius
Ford Focus to Toyota Corolla
These are ONLY North American Sales for 2014 YTD:
F150 - 720,000
Focus - 210,000
Fiesta - 64,000

4Runner - 61,000
Corolla - 320,000
Prius - 185,000

I picked the F150 to 4Runner as roughly 20 mpg equivalent. Sure, Ford makes some F150's that get better but the majority will end up at around 20-23 mpg. Not far off enough to matter for my example.

Based on the above numbers, who is in better shape with their CAFE numbers? Toyota by a long shot! Ford is in the hole here. Remember they OEM's AVERAGE all the models they sell. Below is an excerpt from Wikipedia, which say the same thing as the EPA.gov site only a bit clearer. Pay attention to the text more so than the formulas because it clearly states how the OEM's have to do this. Bottom line though that after everything is said and done, Toyota can produce a LOT more 4Runners and 5.7 Tundras and still be just fine, so CAFE is not an argument for discontinuing the 4Runner.

 

[RaginTxn84]

CAFE means Corporate Average Fuel Economy...

This thanksgiving I am grateful for 1engineer and gracing us with this ridiculously in depth knowledge of the automotive industry, and of course the 4runner.

Excellent clarification and explination :thanks:

 

[qs933]

I believe an article existed from Toyota a while back stating roughly 16 new engines or derivatives will be coming between now and 2016 spread across different models. The corolla, Lexus nx, and lexus RC-F received the first few.

With the Tacoma reportedly up for a refresh, maybe we'll see some tweaks to the V6 there. I think they are more likely to focus on expanding use of the new turbo-4 launched with the NX through the Lexus and Toyota car and crossover lineup, rather than doing anything substantial with the truck line's V6.

 

[NYRunner]

Wouldn't it make the most sense to recombine the 4Runner and Highlander? Perhaps with the Highlander getting a V6, 2WD or part time 4WD or AWD as an option, along with XREAS and cushy shocks and tires, and all the bells and whistles like the Limited. And the SR5 and Trail could be the V6 and V8 variants with 4th Gen style part time 4WD and select-locking center diff? As it is we have two "body styles" so that could also be another easy differentiation...

 

[bigbwb]

Depends on what you consider "12yrs old" the platform for the 1GR-FE engine (the basic block architecture) isn't entirely different from when it was introduced in '03 to '14. But there have been significant changes in between those years, the 2010 cut-off indicating the addition of Dual VVTi to the 1GR-FE, which means new heads, design structure, ect. to support those changes.

The Corolla's engine is actually 2 variants of the 2ZR family, the "older" 2ZR-FE 1.8L 4Cyl with Dual VVTi offered since about 2010 I want to say and the "New" 2ZR-FAE 1.8L 4Cyl withDual VVTi and Valvematic (basically BMW's craptastic Valvetronic setup...) both engines are fundamentally the same, but the 2ZR-FAE has a different cylinder head, cylinder head plate (this is bolted ontop of the cylinder head has all the camshafts, which also needs to be replaced as an entire assembly if anything goes wrong), ect. The Camry is supposed to get this "wonderful" (I use that term loosely as I am worried it will have BMW's reliability than Toyota's) Valvematic technology on the 2AR-FE sometime soon as well as the CVT transmission option like the Corolla.

Most of Toyota's "new" engines are variants of existing engine design/architecture rather than say a brand new family such a "EcoBoost" or what not. GDI is something Toyota does not seem to be entirely thrilled about; not that I can blame them since most if not all GDI engines currently seem to be on the less reliable side of the spectrum right now in terms of what we expect. Granted they'll probably come out with new engines soon as their current offerings in most cases are tipping a decade old even with the minor updates they've made. I just figured I'd point that out.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I was too lazy to get into the details
I too feel toyota is slow to roll out DI engines even though the ones with dual port and DI (D4S) combined seem to be very reliable and no carbon buildup problems. I have no issues with them using existing engine architecture and simply adding newer tech......it helps the reliability!

 

[bigbwb]

With the Tacoma reportedly up for a refresh, maybe we'll see some tweaks to the V6 there. I think they are more likely to focus on expanding use of the new turbo-4 launched with the NX through the Lexus and Toyota car and crossover lineup, rather than doing anything substantial with the truck line's V6.

Rumor has it the updated Tacoma will debut in Detroit in January. It's supposed to have a 3.5 V6 with DI but who knows for sure. Maybe the turbo 4cyl as the base motor

 

[NMJack]

Wouldn't it make the most sense to recombine the 4Runner and Highlander? Perhaps with the Highlander getting a V6, 2WD or part time 4WD or AWD as an option, along with XREAS and cushy shocks and tires, and all the bells and whistles like the Limited. And the SR5 and Trail could be the V6 and V8 variants with 4th Gen style part time 4WD and select-locking center diff? As it is we have two "body styles" so that could also be another easy differentiation...

?????

 

[MTwEeZi]

I have it on good faith there will be a diesel manual torsen diff drivetrain with front and rear manually locking hubs, cloth seats, soft touch plastics, easily replaceable steel bumpers, and handcrank windows. Also the hood will not be made out of rice paper. I can't tell you my source though. But he's really reliable.

 

[jgmx893]

Good info and opinions on here. For me, I think it's too early to tell what the new runners will be like. I would think if Toyota was discontinuing the runner/making drastic changes they might announce it early. That way they could get the most sales as possible out of the current generation because people would know they will be the last.
I think it would be smart of Toyota to base the next gen. off of the next Tacomas, assuming they are moving to Mexico for production, so I think that could be a likely possibility. I don't see any particular reason for toyota to change to unibody yet, unless they were to do that somehow to the Tacoma. The CAFE standards seem pretty forgiving especially with the very high numbers or cars and sedans that Toyota sells that have a much higher fuel efficiency. Plus a lot of us die-hard 4runner owners don't want to change to unibody anyway, so hopefully Toyota listens.

 

[Nolarola]

I am sooooo grateful that my government will allow me to keep making a 4Runner as long as I sell 3.7 Million smart cars powered by fairy dust and unicorn farts.

How much more of this garbage will we take?

The only carbon dioxide they should be limited is coming from the corruptocrats dictating these bovine scatology regulations.

America, land of the free* :flamethrwoer2:

Dude, this makes no sense.

 

[Donkey]

Dude, this makes no sense.

Neither does the government telling anyone what kind of car they can build based upon the amount of carbon dioxide coming from the tailpipe. Sorry, too off topic. Back to the unit body speculation...

 

[1engineer]

Neither does the government telling anyone what kind of car they can build based upon the amount of carbon dioxide coming from the tailpipe. Sorry, too off topic. Back to the unit body speculation...

They can build a coal and oil fired car if they want to but if they want to sell it here they will have to pay a penalty. Their choice.

 

[dredawg]

My 2 cents on this subject...

As long as there is a Tacoma, there will always be a 4Runner if there is a demand for it. If you recall the original 4Runner was essentially a Toyota pickup with a camper shell. Correct me if I'm wrong; but even with this current generations 4Runner, isn't the chassis shared with the Tacoma? I am sure there are differences..but it is loosely based on the pickup truck chassis.

Besides it would be silly for them to add yet another midsize crossover to their lineup; Highlander and Venza?!

 

[Donkey]

They can build a coal and oil fired car if they want to but if they want to sell it here they will have to pay a penalty. Their choice.

The mostly coal-fired plug ins are working out pretty well...funny how that works.

Again, sorry for the off topic. House full of inlaws makes one kind of batty.

Can't wait for my flying hybrid 4Runner!

 

[Jhalko]

I think it would be smart of Toyota to base the next gen. off of the next Tacomas, assuming they are moving to Mexico for production, so I think that could be a likely possibility. .

Folks keep mentioning moving production to Mexico, the Yen is getting slaughtered and that could get worse in the future. As that happens they will make even more money by producing the 4runner in Yen and selling it in dollars.

But to your main point, the more cost savings of overlap with the Tacoma the better for them.

 

[Jeremy556]

My 2 cents on this subject...

As long as there is a Tacoma, there will always be a 4Runner if there is a demand for it. If you recall the original 4Runner was essentially a Toyota pickup with a camper shell. Correct me if I'm wrong; but even with this current generations 4Runner, isn't the chassis shared with the Tacoma? I am sure there are differences..but it is loosely based on the pickup truck chassis.

Besides it would be silly for them to add yet another midsize crossover to their lineup; Highlander and Venza?!

The original 4runner was pretty much a hilux with a permanent cap. The current 4runner and Taco don't share nearly as much, most of the front suspension, engine block, some small parts. Frame, head, and just about everything else is different. The 4runner, FJC, Land Cruiser Prado, and GX460 all are based on the Prado 150 chassis and share most components.

 

[philsey]

Again, sorry for the off topic. House full of inlaws makes one batty-er.
!

Fixed.

 

[TOY2G]

Wouldn't it make the most sense to recombine the 4Runner and Highlander? Perhaps with the Highlander getting a V6, 2WD or part time 4WD or AWD as an option, along with XREAS and cushy shocks and tires, and all the bells and whistles like the Limited. And the SR5 and Trail could be the V6 and V8 variants with 4th Gen style part time 4WD and select-locking center diff? As it is we have two "body styles" so that could also be another easy differentiation...

Recombine? They never were combined, I believe you are confusing the highlander edition of the 4Runner with a mashup of a Camry and a 4Runner.

The Highlander currently comes with a V6 and AWD and has for many years, so that is likely to continue. FWIW, the highlander also comes in limited AWD v6 with all the bells and whistles.

I am not sure how they would put XREAS on the highlander since it is a Camry, but perhaps, since they made a Camry an SUV after all.

I could not imagine a car like the highlander getting part time 4x4, I don't think the Camry platform can handle it. However, the hybrid version is AWD and the rear axle in not connected to the gas motor, so it is (in a way) part time 4wd. Our RX400h (Lexus version of the hybrid highlander) is pretty comfy and I could not imagine them throwing a transfer case in the mix.

I guess none of us really know, so we can all make whatever guesses we want. Lol.

 

[Renegad44]

I can very much see this being the last gen of the 4runner (as we know it) in the US. I'm guessing Toyota will follow Nissan's lead in the US. Thanks Obama!

I hope I'm wrong.

Obama builds 4Runners? Damn, I had no idea...LOL!!! :doh::wow:

 

[GhostNote]

Yes there will be a more improved 4runner. It will not have the Poop Front end that is now. :hunter: