Ford isn't putting a V-8 in the new GT, why would they put one in the upcoming Raptor, especially when you have a turbo V-6 with so much torque and better mpg?
6th gen 2017 4R, will it exist?
- Thread starter bigbwb
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Ford isn't putting a V-8 in the new GT, why would they put one in the upcoming Raptor, especially when you have a turbo V-6 with so much torque and better mpg?
Meyercord
New member
The gt is a different animal all together. The same rumor mill that called the move to the 6.2 is stating a 5.0 ecoboost isn't unreasonable. I would be fine with a v6 turbo. I hated the 6.2 my raptor had.
Jetboy
New member
If it were on par with an rx350 I'd be happy. Two very similar vehicles, but the gearing and electronic tune is night and day different.
RX 350 has 270/248 vs the 4runner's 270/278 hp/tq and the 4runner produces both at lower rpms.
Weight is 4350 vs 4700
0-60 is 7.7 vs 7.8.
Basically they are very evenly matched on paper. However the rx 350 feels a lot more powerful due to its tune. You really have to demand the power out of the 4runner to get any, and when it does it's clunky. I'll take the 6 speed and 3.5L any day of the week over the 4.0L and the 5 speed. If you drove both back to back and didn't know anything about them, you'd say the RX 350 has at least 50 more hp.
I suspect we could solve 95% of the issue by just putting 4.10 gears in with the stock tire size, but we won't know until someone starts making more gearing options for the 8.2" diff.
LandCruiser
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Toyota is going to luxo and bloat the 6th gen to the point few will buy it and if it's still BOF, very few of the off road market will want one. If the speculation is true, I don't want one and my next truck will be a Taco... unless Nissan somehow manages to make a new Xterra after shifting almost all their SUVs to BOF... which they won't.
If you want a BOF SUV, you'll be driving a Taco with a Leer/ARB topper.
If you want a BOF SUV, you'll be driving a Taco with a Leer/ARB topper.
Jetboy
New member
Basically all tube frame buggies are unibody. Surely unibody *can* be done in a way that is still very off road capable. It's mostly that no one has made a serious attempt at a legitimate off road segment unibody SUV.
Independent suspension is the real killer. It cannot replicate what a live axle offers and that's inherent in the physical properties that can't be engineered around.
OTOH a body on frame isn't necessarily much heavier. Maybe 200lbs? A highlander is only 200lbs lighter than a 4runner. They are as close as you'll probably ever find to directly comparable BOF and unibody suvs with almost the same size, engines, transmissions, etc. I don't think 200lbs is going to make the difference. It should be really easy to drop 200lbs by making the 4runner just a bit smaller physically. Just sell us a 4tuner.
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And still the 5-speed transmission. With the Taco getting a 6-speed auto and the Land Cruiser getting an 8-speed, I was hoping the 4Runner would get something to help improve the fuel economy.
Oh, well, I guess we wait some more.
Not gonna happen. Ford is committed to EcoBoost.
Meyercord
New member
Ecoboost 5.0 would be badass.
LandCruiser
New member
No, they want small block and big boost.
I like big block and big blower. Turbos are for diesels.
Jetboy
New member
I'd say it's 99.9% that it'll get a 6 speed auto in the next generation. .1% it'll get the 8 speed. 0% it'll get the 5 speed.
Why not give us all the 8 speed? I have no idea. It can't cost meaningfully more to produce at this point. The 6 speed is pretty good though, so it'll probably do just fine.
Agreed. I do think that a 6-speed is the price of admission these days.
Gecko
New member
A 6AT would make a pretty noticeable difference, I think. Floor the 5th Gen 4Runner at 70 MPH and it really only downshifts from 5th to 4th and there's quite a wait for usable power to show up. Another gear and shorter ratios would be nicer for passing, towing, higher elevations and gas mileage.
Toyota has very rigorous testing processes for the parts that are used in the 4Runner, Tacoma and Land Cruiser (and derivatives) - they undergo more stringent testing, more abuse and more miles than other vehicles in the ToMoCo lineup. These are some of the very best built vehicles available in the Toyota family, and the company takes reliability, dependability and capability very seriously. This is often why it takes longer for new technology to make it to these platforms. It's also why they last forever.(this is a good article to read if you're curious.)
With that said, Toyota does have an 8AT that's about to be connected to both the 5.7L and 4.6L V8s. Whether or not that transmission is an easy/suitable bolt-up for a V6, I am not sure.
After losing the V8 from the Gen 4, and then about ~300lbs of weight added to the Gen 5, Toyota received a lot of complaints from 4Runner owners who wanted to tow more or just generally felt like the truck was underpowered. As I understand it, there was some consideration of putting the 1UR-FE 4.6L V8 under the hood as an option for the 2014 refresh, but this was a topic of debate when the price of gas over $3.50 in most of the country. Ultimately the idea was dropped.
The 4Runner is almost a victim of it's own success, and I don't think Toyota ever assumed that this generation would be as successful as it's been. It bowed right after the financial collapse, gas skyrocketed, crossovers boomed and almost every other BOF SUV went extinct. Somehow, the 4Runner soldiers on and has actually been increasing sales volume year over year except for a slight dip between 2010 and 2011. As mentioned before, I know that about 2 years ago, Toyota had not even committed to build a 6th generation. I have to believe that with such unexpected success, Toyota is definitely committed to another generation at this point.
The question is just how much they're willing to invest. Are we going to get a full redesign with new everything? I doubt it. I think it's more feasible that they'll nip and tuck the exterior, modernize the interior and make some small upgrades to the power train - possibly a beefed up version of the Tacoma's new V6 or maybe just bolting a newer transmission to the existing engine.
Good news is that I think we should know more in the next 8-10 months, but that is a long wait!
Toyota has very rigorous testing processes for the parts that are used in the 4Runner, Tacoma and Land Cruiser (and derivatives) - they undergo more stringent testing, more abuse and more miles than other vehicles in the ToMoCo lineup. These are some of the very best built vehicles available in the Toyota family, and the company takes reliability, dependability and capability very seriously. This is often why it takes longer for new technology to make it to these platforms. It's also why they last forever.(this is a good article to read if you're curious.)
With that said, Toyota does have an 8AT that's about to be connected to both the 5.7L and 4.6L V8s. Whether or not that transmission is an easy/suitable bolt-up for a V6, I am not sure.
After losing the V8 from the Gen 4, and then about ~300lbs of weight added to the Gen 5, Toyota received a lot of complaints from 4Runner owners who wanted to tow more or just generally felt like the truck was underpowered. As I understand it, there was some consideration of putting the 1UR-FE 4.6L V8 under the hood as an option for the 2014 refresh, but this was a topic of debate when the price of gas over $3.50 in most of the country. Ultimately the idea was dropped.
The 4Runner is almost a victim of it's own success, and I don't think Toyota ever assumed that this generation would be as successful as it's been. It bowed right after the financial collapse, gas skyrocketed, crossovers boomed and almost every other BOF SUV went extinct. Somehow, the 4Runner soldiers on and has actually been increasing sales volume year over year except for a slight dip between 2010 and 2011. As mentioned before, I know that about 2 years ago, Toyota had not even committed to build a 6th generation. I have to believe that with such unexpected success, Toyota is definitely committed to another generation at this point.
The question is just how much they're willing to invest. Are we going to get a full redesign with new everything? I doubt it. I think it's more feasible that they'll nip and tuck the exterior, modernize the interior and make some small upgrades to the power train - possibly a beefed up version of the Tacoma's new V6 or maybe just bolting a newer transmission to the existing engine.
Good news is that I think we should know more in the next 8-10 months, but that is a long wait!
NuclearN8
New member
[MENTION=114416]Gecko[/MENTION]
well said. Like you, I don't expect anything groundbreaking from the 6th Gen 4Runner. It'll share the Tacoma Powertrain, likely in identical fashion and form, the sluggish feel and to improve mpg will likely be compensated by using lighter weight materials throughout and a tranny with 1 more speed to bump up the highway number to help meet the CARB restrictions looming.
These are really the only a few viable options to increase mpg of a BOF SUV/truck (more transmission gears, cylinder deactivation at highway cruising speeds (dodge does this in their hemi 5.7L and my uncle got 22.8 mpg real world on our recent 4000 mile fishing trip with it loaded down), superchargers with smaller engines (ala the 2017 Raptor), and shredding weight throughout the design (ala the 2017 Raptor (and ford trucks in general using aluminum int he body panels.)
well said. Like you, I don't expect anything groundbreaking from the 6th Gen 4Runner. It'll share the Tacoma Powertrain, likely in identical fashion and form, the sluggish feel and to improve mpg will likely be compensated by using lighter weight materials throughout and a tranny with 1 more speed to bump up the highway number to help meet the CARB restrictions looming.
These are really the only a few viable options to increase mpg of a BOF SUV/truck (more transmission gears, cylinder deactivation at highway cruising speeds (dodge does this in their hemi 5.7L and my uncle got 22.8 mpg real world on our recent 4000 mile fishing trip with it loaded down), superchargers with smaller engines (ala the 2017 Raptor), and shredding weight throughout the design (ala the 2017 Raptor (and ford trucks in general using aluminum int he body panels.)
Gecko
New member
I have to hope that Toyota would give the 4Runner a few more ponies under the hood vs the Tacoma. Using that same basic engine architecture makes sense - it's there, it works, it's got direct injection, Atkinson cycle functionality, it works with a 6AT.
4Runner weighs more than the Tacoma (and the 2016 Tacoma weighs even less, I think) and already makes more power. If Toyota could bump it up to 290-300hp and 280-290lb-ft with a 6AT, that would be a nice update. Losing 200-300 lbs would be great. An 8AT might be icing on the cake.
While I get the 8AT argument for MPG, I personally think 6AT is really the sweet spot for driveability with no awkward hunting for gears.
I just don't know if 270hp/261lb-ft is going to be enough in a truck that's likely going to weigh somewhere around 4,500+lbs.
4Runner weighs more than the Tacoma (and the 2016 Tacoma weighs even less, I think) and already makes more power. If Toyota could bump it up to 290-300hp and 280-290lb-ft with a 6AT, that would be a nice update. Losing 200-300 lbs would be great. An 8AT might be icing on the cake.
While I get the 8AT argument for MPG, I personally think 6AT is really the sweet spot for driveability with no awkward hunting for gears.
I just don't know if 270hp/261lb-ft is going to be enough in a truck that's likely going to weigh somewhere around 4,500+lbs.
My wife has a 7-speed in her C300. That tranny doesn't hunt for gears. So I don't think a properly designed 8-speed would be problem and it would improve mileage another few percent. If it had a wider spread between first and top gear, it might also improve performance.
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It is and it isn't. I mean in terms of chassis and handling the GT is definitely in an entirely different league from the Raptor.
But it will be utilizing the same engine (though likely tuned and with a different transmission) as the Raptor and other Ford Pickup's. This was the same for the last generation Ford Gt which used a S/C V-8 that was also found it one of Ford's pickup's.
The Ford Gt should be cool, but it kind of takes away from its uniqueness factor when you know its using the same engine as a pickup IMO. Whereas McLaren and others will use engines specifically designed for that platform.
bigbwb
Member
Great last few posts regarding your thoughts and possible conclusions regarding a possible 6th gen 4R. I am a longtime 4R owner (owned 5 so far). I had to switch over to an Acura MDX recently only because I was told the 6th gen was not in the works as of yet and I couldn't wait forever. If as of 2 years ago the next gen 4R was not green lighted, does it seem likely that a major redesign or refresh is several years out yet? I know 2017 is the "normal" cycle for the next 4runner but I believe the average time to do a major overhaul takes longer.
I too hope the 6th gen is out sooner than later! If they decide to utilize the new Tacoma 3.5L, that would be disappointing. Its a less powerful motor than the current 4.0L and the 4runner weighs more as well. My preference would be to see the current V6 gain Direct injection, Atkinson, and the 6sp auto.
Thanks!
Gecko
New member
A full redesign takes much longer to execute (36 to 48 months) but a reskin/refresh can be executed much sooner (18 months or so). This way, you're keeping the same mechanicals - the hard, expensive stuff - and just updating the sheetmetal with a few trim tweaks.
What remains to be seen is Toyota's timing. With a 2010 introduction, the truck will be 6 years old next year and very ready for an update. My sense is we'll see the new 4Runner as a 2017 model in late September or October of next year... but Toyota has been lazy lately and I don't know what their time frame is to introduce a new Tundra.
Waiting until 2017 as a 2018 model does not seem plausible to me.
What remains to be seen is Toyota's timing. With a 2010 introduction, the truck will be 6 years old next year and very ready for an update. My sense is we'll see the new 4Runner as a 2017 model in late September or October of next year... but Toyota has been lazy lately and I don't know what their time frame is to introduce a new Tundra.
Waiting until 2017 as a 2018 model does not seem plausible to me.
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1engineer
Moderator
Alright [MENTION=114416]Gecko[/MENTION] what gives? Last September I responded to your first post on this forum asking about a 5th gen 4Runner. You seemed like a nice enough sort that had basic questions and no knowledge of the 4Runner except having owned an older model 15 years ago. It seems like in eight months you really got an education...
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