Yes it did
A possible solution to leaking axle seals
- Thread starter Drcoffee
- Start date
Yes it did
alwaysbored786
New member
Thanks for this pic, going to take my axles to a shop today to get them pressed and will show them this. Hope my grease test shows all is well!
What kind of vibration specifically? I have vibration and steering issues and an alignment shop told me it's my rear end. So I'm curious what your truck's symptoms were
When I inevitably get around to this, how can I assure they do it right? I mean I can't drive it to them and do the grease test myself. The grease test involves putting it back on completely and putting back in the hub right?
Also, I asked a machine shop recently over the phone about doing it this way, and they said they'd do it to the FSM specs due to liability.
mtbtim
Elite Member
What you do is bring the truck back to them and say you want them to pull the axle and do the grease test right in front of you. That's what I told the service writer at my local dealership and they did it. They botched the job so they shouldn't give you grief if you want to see something with your own eyes.
For the machine shop tell them you want and if they're not willing to do it you'll just go to another machine shop. At the very least they have to change the position of the inner retainer more inboard by a couple millimeters if they don't want to flip the orientation of the retainer. But, this puts the retainer close to hitting the inside of the axle housing. If they press on the inner retainer to FSM spec even though they know the axle seal has been redesigned with a seal lip that now sits 2mm more inboard, then they are idiots. I guarantee you are now more knowledgeable about this repair on our rigs than 95% of the paid mechanics out there. I got my local dealership to do the retainer flip for me. And, I probably prevented many more 3rd Gen 4runner owners and 1st Gen Tacoma owners from getting a screwed up axle seal repair job from them.
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Hypothetically speaking....
If one were to flip the retainer and install it in exactly the same position as it was originally, would the seal likely be ok even though not perfectly centered?
I'm wondering if, with the elimination of the bevel, there would enough contact area without making 1mm shifts in position to try to make it perfectly centered.
The reason for the question is - if one were to have the complete job done at an independent shop, and would not be able to be present to verify the grease test (assuming they even did it) if you just requested the retainer be reversed perhaps that would be enough to assure no leaks. I'm not sure I'd count on them fiddling with 1mm increments to try to make if perfect. More likely they'd just press it back on the original position. Hopefully, that is.
If one were to flip the retainer and install it in exactly the same position as it was originally, would the seal likely be ok even though not perfectly centered?
I'm wondering if, with the elimination of the bevel, there would enough contact area without making 1mm shifts in position to try to make it perfectly centered.
The reason for the question is - if one were to have the complete job done at an independent shop, and would not be able to be present to verify the grease test (assuming they even did it) if you just requested the retainer be reversed perhaps that would be enough to assure no leaks. I'm not sure I'd count on them fiddling with 1mm increments to try to make if perfect. More likely they'd just press it back on the original position. Hopefully, that is.
djaye.
New member
Nothing useful to contribute here other than seeing this thread just brought back some terrible memories from back when I did this job.
Found out that the inner spacer and ABS tone wheel do NOT get fully seated against each other... AFTER the fact :sobbing:
Ended up spending another $60 and half a day making a stupid tool to gently pull the tone wheel back without ruining it :rant:
Sure seems to me like this whole BS arrangement is very not Toyota-like.
Found out that the inner spacer and ABS tone wheel do NOT get fully seated against each other... AFTER the fact :sobbing:
Ended up spending another $60 and half a day making a stupid tool to gently pull the tone wheel back without ruining it :rant:
Sure seems to me like this whole BS arrangement is very not Toyota-like.
Drcoffee
Senior Member
Happy thanksgiving everyone! My seals are holding at 225,000.
I have an unused bearing puller tool for sale in the sale section if someone is looking for the press tool to do this job. You can buy this tool and a harbor freight press for less than the cost to let toyota do the job wrong.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/sale-t4r-items/247219-fs-rear-axle-bearing-puller-tool-new-nw-indiana.html#post2849695
I have an unused bearing puller tool for sale in the sale section if someone is looking for the press tool to do this job. You can buy this tool and a harbor freight press for less than the cost to let toyota do the job wrong.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/sale-t4r-items/247219-fs-rear-axle-bearing-puller-tool-new-nw-indiana.html#post2849695
Drcoffee
Senior Member
If you think about the BS excuse that axle is bent, ask how this would create the vibration. The axle is supported by the splined end at the pumpkin and the hub by the bearing. A little bend isnt going to give you that kind of vibration at the speeds the axle is spinning. 10 thousands out is frickin imperceptible. Dont waste your money.
Drcoffee
Senior Member
Measuring this way is fine. My meaaurements will vary from yours. That is why I stress using the grease test method. Dont assume my numbers will be the same for you. But you need a point of reference when determining how far to shift the retainer and that place is easier than any other.
D'oh! I just ordered that tool new and it's en-route. Too bad you didn't post this last week!
mtbtim
Elite Member
I see you liked the alteration I did to the Durasolid tool.
mtbtim
Elite Member
I've done this rear axle seal job 4 times now on ABS rearends and I've found 5mm of polished axle showing above the retainer (with the retainer flipped) is pretty much perfect.
The inner retainer from the factory is pressed onto the axle shaft with approximately 5mm of polished axle showing above it. We know the new axle seal design has the lip of the seal now sitting 2mm more inboard. When you flip the orientation of the retainer (bevel facing the tone ring) you gain back that 2mm because you no longer have to first push past that bevel, which happens to be 2mm wide.
So, by simply flipping the retainer orientation, you can keep the retainer in it's original spot on the axle shaft and have the seal lip riding dead center in the middle of the 10mm polished shoulder of the retainer.
bikemanbrent
Junior Member
Same problem-leaky seals
I have had the same problem and was starting to think along the same lines as your post. I have new bearings and a working breather but oil was still pouring out and I replaced the seal twice. This has to be the reason. I think the mechanic who pressed on the retainer pushed it on too far so the seal barely makes contact. I'm going to do it right.
Since my bearings are "new" I may just replace the retainer and be very mindful of how far I press it on so proper contact with the seal is made.
I have had the same problem and was starting to think along the same lines as your post. I have new bearings and a working breather but oil was still pouring out and I replaced the seal twice. This has to be the reason. I think the mechanic who pressed on the retainer pushed it on too far so the seal barely makes contact. I'm going to do it right.
Since my bearings are "new" I may just replace the retainer and be very mindful of how far I press it on so proper contact with the seal is made.
Did you really just ask how a bent axle would create vibration?
You may not have realized that I had already fixed this issue prior to my first post regarding it. The flange runout was 10 thou outside of the limit per the FSM. That was the problem.
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I had what felt like a wheel vibration that would become more or less pronounced at different times above approx 50 mph. For example I could drive maybe 5 Minutes on the highway with no vibe, then it would just start up for awhile, then smooth out again later. At first it was seemingly random, but after paying closer attention I noticed that going around a bend or turn could affect it either more or less (to varying degrees). I should note that there was never any steering wheel shanking, so I always figured the problem was not up front. additionally, this happened for the course of a few years, and during that time I had numerous tire balances, rotations, as well as different rims and tires completely.
It is not imperceptible to think of one axle flange (that has brake drum and wheel/tire bolted to it) not turning 100% perpendicular that a vibration could be induced. And that perhaps when one wheel position changes (rotationally) in relation to the wheel on the opposite side (like when going through a turn) that the induced vibration could be more pronounced or canceled out by the minor vibrations on the opposite side.
Bottom line, I read the FSM, measured the axle runout, found it was out of spec, changed the axle and fixed the issue.
The point of reference is given. It’s printed in the FSM, it’s accurate, and it works. No grease test needed.
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Drcoffee
Senior Member
If the flange is bent, it will cause a vibration. But not cause an oil leak. UNLESS, the oil seal is sitting right at the edge of the bevel of the retainer. I was referring to the axle shaft. Hey, there is nothing wrong with sticking your head in the sand and holding the FSM up as the bible with a faithful reliance that all will be well. But for the rest of us who want to make sure the seal is properly position, the grease test is the GOLD standard.
Have you pulled out your ABS sensors to check for leaking yet? Check back when you do.
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Just to clarify, I never indicated the bent axle caused an oil leak. See post 122 (posted again below)
My thoughts: Hey there's nothing wrong with ignoring the FSM and doing a job 4 times to try and get it right (on your own car, of course). But really, this entire thread is dedicated to you figuring something out that Toyota had posted probably when they designed the rear ABS axle... I'm guessing sometime in the 90's??
Do you always scoff at factory published specs before you even read or try them? You did it twice when I mentioned them for two different jobs in this thread.
By now you should know my method for doing this job (per FSM), which is the way I did it last year and also in 2008. From my post #122 in this thread:
There is more than one way to skin a cat, and ultimately the goal is to get the ring in the correct location and prevent an axle seal leak. And while an axle leak is definitely a PITA, it typically isn't a show stopper.
But my issue here now is that you're encouraging others to "stick their head in the sand" (to use your words) when it comes to the FSM. Service manuals are there for a reason - so you don't have the do the same job 4 times. I strongly encourage people (I'm referring to non-technicians, pro-techs already will) to reference the proper materials any time they're doing a job for the first time, rather than rely solely on "procedures" posted by "forum experts" (that goes for crap I post too, hahahaha).
:focus:
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