Advice sought for the likely cause of premature front right tire wear (11k miles)

[mom]

Attached is a picture of the four tires, all of which were new 11K miles ago, with an alignment 10K miles ago and new front shocks about 6K miles ago.

This is the second set of tires where this happened (the first set was before the new front shocks).

Any idea what the culprit might be before I bring it back for re-alignment?

 

[J-money$$$]

the camber is most likely the cause

 

[HCurphy]

Holy ****. I'm sorry this post won't be helpful to you at all, because i cant remember if thats camber or toe and like you i'm to lazy to do a goole search. Does your runner track straight? I wouldn't think so with that happening that quick. Where did you get your alignment done?

Ahh. Ok. This was the last set of tires it happened to? Looks like Billsteins in the pic.

I would definately get it realigned, but not by the same person who did it last time. I would probably also raise hell with whatever place did the last alignment. Although you probably could have mitigated some of the damage to that tire. Did you drive knowing you had a problem for a while?

best of luck to you

 

[BrianSD_42]

past bs aside, you should probably have them check your lower ball joints.

back a few years ago both my front tires were wearing badly on the outer part of the tire. I ignored it for awhile and finally complained to the mechanic I go to. He told me that my LBJs needed replacing for about $400 parts and labor.

I think I was very lucky because it is not uncommon for LBJs to suddenly give out when driving. If one of them breaks while the car is moving you will surely crash because the front wheel basically falls off.

Make sure they use a real Toyota OEM part but it probably doesn't need to be done by the dealer or anything. You can even do it yourself but my excuse is I didn't have a garage or tools when mine went out.

Try this search result: RESULT for site:toyota-4runner.org - Google Search

It should be easy for any competent mechanic to test the LBJs and tell you if they are bad or not. It requires less than 30 mins labor to check.

:nono:

 

[mom]

camber

I cant remember if thats camber or toe

Thanks. Based on the answers, an alignment check [and LBJ test] will be the first priority.

If you have hints for a good set of jack stands (mine are too short) & the most basic alignment tools, please let me know.
EDIT: I searched and started listing the tools required for my LBJ & alignment DIY (see results later in this post.)

Does your runner track straight?

I had not noticed any problems with tracking.

After googling for a while, here's what I 'think' can and can not be adjusted by turning (please correct where I err) on the 2WD 1997 4runner:

• steering wheel centering = adjustable via tie rod ends
• height = non adjustable (needs aftermarket parts)
• camber = adjustable via camber eccentrics
• caster = not adjustable (needs aftermarket UCA's and/or springs)
• steering axis inclination = ? (check for steering knuckle front wheel bearing looseness)
• toe-in = adjustable via tie-rod ends
• wheel turning angle = adjustable via?

Note: I do realize any one setting may affect all other settings - and that aftermarket parts can affect some settings; but I'm asking for the 'direct' settings which were provided expressly for the purpose of alignment adjustment.

Where did you get your alignment done?

Goodyear, in San Jose. It bothers me that, at the moment, I have no way of knowing if they did it right.

the last set of tires it happened to?

Yes. It happened to the last set of tires - but I had thought new shocks and alignment would cure the uneven tire wear.

Here's a pic of what I learned putting a front shock in place for that same wheel:

I would definitely get it realigned, but not by the same person who did it last time.

I hate being helpless & clueless, so, I will first search for a 2WD alignment DIY to specifically learn how to check & adjust at least the front camber & toe in my garage -- and then -- if needed, I'll take it in to Toyota for the full professional alignment.

EDIT: I searched but could not find applicable 3rd-gen 2wd alignment DIYs (yet) on this web site. I will expand the search (see results later in this post.)

Did you drive knowing you had a problem for a while?

Yes. It happened to the last set of tires also. But the RF shock had clearly blown so I thought it was fixed when I replaced the front shocks:

1. Your advice on choosing the shocks
   
2. Your advice on the tools to use
3. How I personally did my 2WD shock R&R

Here is a shot of the last set of tires:

check your lower ball joints

Thanks for that additional advice and the search criteria for the LBJ check & replace.
What I know I need before I can even start are:

• DIYs for '97 2WD 4runner lower-ball joint & alignment
• Taller jack stands (both my sets are too short)
• Toe-in measuring tools
• Camber measuring tools

Note: I have a dial gauge (which I bought to measure rotor runout).

If one of them breaks while the car is moving you will surely crash

Yikes! Thanks for the warning.

That's all the more reason for me to learn how to test & replace them myself.

You can even do it yourself

I will attempt the 2WD ball joint & alignment DIY; if I fail - I can then have them professionally done.

Given the helpful advice above, my todo list is currently the following:

1. Get alignment specs for the 97 2WD 4Runner (should be in my FSM) <== done (see below)
2. Find the best 2WD ball joint & alignment DIYs (may be hampered by a dearth in 2WD DIYs) <== in progress, ball joint DIYs are easy to find ... alignment DIYs are much less common
3. Buy any necessary tools (assuming they don't cost vastly more than the service itself) <== in progress ... simple tools may or may not suffice
4. Test the lower ball joints; replace as needed
5. Check alignment; adjust as needed

Thanks for the helpful advice. As always, I'll report what I find out as I progress.

EDIT 1: These seem to be the key specs to start with for the 1997 2WD 4runner:

• Lower ball joint play
  • 0.020" (0.5mm) at a force of 66 ft lb
• Vehicle height
  • Front: A - B: 72.2 mm (2.843 in.)
  • Rear: C - D: 52.0 mm (2.047 in.)
• Front Camber
  • -0 °15’ ± 45’ (-0.25° ± 0.75°)
• Front Caster
  • 3°15’ ± 45’ (3.25° ± 0.75°)
• Steering axis inclination
  • 11°00’ ± 45’ (11° ± 0.75°)
• Toe In
  • A + B: 0°12’ ± 12’ (0.2° ± 0.2°)
  • C - D: 2 ± 2 mm (0.08 ± 0.08 in.)
  • Note: See descriptions of A, B, C, D in the PDFs included below.
• Wheel angle
  • Inside wheel: 35° (33° - 36°)
  • Outside wheel: 31°
• Note: Left-right error: 30’ (0.5°) or less for all measurements.
• Note: Only the front is adjustable; the rear is not adjustable.
  

EDIT 2: I tend to buy OEM unless I know better (most seem to say to go with OEM for LBJs).
Looking at the online Toyota part-number lookup site, the Toyota part numbers appear to be:

• LBJ, right: 43330‑39415 apparently superseded by 43330-39585 ?
  
• LBJ, left: 43340‑39325 apparently superseded by 43340-39465 ?
  • Note: OEM should come with new LBJ castle nut and cotter pin)
• Castle nut: 90171‑16050
• Bolt (x4): 90105‑10406
• Cotter pin: ?

• $81 right, $81 left, at toyotapartsales
• $78 right, $78 left, at parts.camelbacktoyota.com
• $81 right, $81 left, at toyotapart.com (for OEM)
• $79 right, $79 left, at toyotapartszone.com
• $84 right, $84 left, at shoptrd.com (no shipping over $100, TX)
• $86 right, $84 left, at partsgeek for Sankei 555
• $84 right, $82 left, at NAPA for Infineon brand (local San Jose store)
• WIP

EDIT 3: DIYs for 1997 4Runner 2WD lower ball joint & alignment

Lower ball joint DIYs (2WD may be different, Tacoma is definitely different ):

• Lower Ball Joint Removal and Installation
• How to replace 3rd Gen lower ball joints. Pic Heavy.
• R&R Upper and Lower Ball Joints
• Inner Tie Rod Removal and Installation
• WIP

Front alignment DIYs (2WD may be different):

• WIP (I haven't found any DIYs yet on toyota-4runner.org so I may need to expand my search)
• DIY Wheel Alignment Guide (hot rod) (negative-camber.org) (you tube 1)
• Note: There are apparently no rear alignment adjustments.

EDIT 4: Special tools needed for LBJ & alignment

• Taller jack stands (what range is needed?)
• Pickle fork or ball joint puller
• Tie rod puller (pictures here) (2-jaw puller recommended)
• Open-end wrenches for the inner tie rod end
  • (the inner to outer connection is 27mm and 28mm, the inside joint to rack is 30mm and 42mm)
• Camber measurement tool ? (youtube 1)
• Toe measurement tool ?
• Steering wheel immobilizer
• Sockets 14mm, 19mm, 24mm, & 15/16" (can use wrenches)
• Fluids: Blue loctite, PB Blaster
• Torque wrench: 14mm=59 ft #, 24mm=105 ft #, tie-rod-ends=53 ft #
• Carpenters level (youtube 1)
• Non-stretching twine (youtube 1)
• Clear tubing 1/4" ID, 15' (youtube 1)
• Tile, 12"x12", 1/8" thick (youtube 1)
• WIP

 

[HaYnrunner]

just so u guys know when you shop at napa order the altrom(atm) items, if they list the parts you need under atm get it. the atm line is oem (repackaged toyota) or nissin, denso, nippon ect.
i actually work for napa and alot of times atm is cheaper than the napa stuff

 

[BrianSD_42]

OP is better off buying the LBJs from a dealer in TX and having them shipped.

Btw, Napa owns MOOG and those parts are known to fail, especially the LBJs.

.

 

[mom]

the atm line is oem

That's good to know since it's not mentioned in the ball joint brand thread:
> 3rd gen T4Rs > what brand ball joints??

But it 'is' mentioned in this LBJ thread:
> 3rd gen T4Rs > Ball Joints

I ordered from NAPA...
LBJ's (went with Altrom as they also mfg the OEM's)
ATM SB3794L
ATM SB3794R
These list for $124.00 each, paid $72.81 each.

The "general" consensus, based on multiple thread, (and certainly by no means universal) seems to be in roughly this order:

1. OEM (ATM Altrom may be the OEM manufacturer)
2. NAPA Premiums
3. Raybestos Professional Grade (OE)
4. Sankei 555
5. sticks tied together
6. Moog

If the LBJ test bad, I'm simply going to go with OEM + 4 new bolts per side.

I didn't see anyone post instructions on how to check the ball joints. Here's some videos I found.

4runner with a good and bad ball joint.
VERY BAD Ball Joints - WATCH THIS!!! - YouTube

More "detailed" inspection with a Ford Explorer.
Front Suspension & Steering Inspection - YouTube

Note: Based on this thread, the Tacoma LBJs are not a 1:1 replacement option.
Note: Based on this thread, the ball is the important part to be the OEM 555.

 

[JohnsD90]

Oh look, its another thread where the LBJ HAS to be the problem, it doesn't have to be, it could potentially be the problem, but its not a surefire answer, Everyone here really wants everyone to drop $350 on new ball joints as if they are LBJ salesmen.

But yeah thats your alignment, my moms car's alignment was off the chart and the tire went in less than 8k miles and the car drove straight.

 

[BrianSD_42]

Oh look, its another thread where the LBJ HAS to be the problem, it doesn't have to be, it could potentially be the problem, but its not a surefire answer, Everyone here really wants everyone to drop $350 on new ball joints as if they are LBJ salesmen.

But yeah thats your alignment, my moms car's alignment was off the chart and the tire went in less than 8k miles and the car drove straight.

I see what you mean and realize it could just be his alignment. In my case it was my LBJ's as diagnosed by a Toyota mechanic. As I suggested above the OP should have his LBJs "checked" out at least.

.

 

[JohnsD90]

I see what you mean and realize it could just be his alignment. In my case it was my LBJ's as diagnosed by a Toyota mechanic. As I suggested above the OP should have his LBJs "checked" out at least.

.

It was and wasn't directed at you, i don't mean any harm, i just always see the OMG LBJ posts, and they are expensive to change, and not always needed.

But i do agree they should be checked, but i would hope the mechanic doing the alignment would look at them cause they are right there where he is working.

 

[JayRolla]

Just to clear it up, if the LBJ breaks you can usually safely stop before wrecking. I know because I have had it happen. You still have control of your brakes and one tire for steer.

To the OP, like stated have it the alignment checked. If its good than it could be a bad LBJ. If its bad enough it can cause play in the tire. But you can jack the car up and shake the tire. If you feel that its loose the ball joint is bad. It should be solid and not shake around.

 

[mom]

you can jack the car up and shake the tire. If you feel that its loose the ball joint is bad. It should be solid and not shake around.

Thanks everyone for the advice. My first step coming home today from work was to check the lower ball joints.

I have a dial gauge & clamp mechanism (for testing rotor runout); but I can't imagine how I'm supposed to apply 66 foot pounds of force to the lug nuts as described in the Toyota FSM.

How would anyone perform the test in the FSM?

Moving forward, I floor jacked the 4runner up by the center jack point below the engine & performed the recommended simple tire-shake test with the tires up in the air. (Note: I tried to put the 4runner on jack stands, but failed as per this thread.)

After jacking the centerpoint so that the wheels were freely dangling in the air, I shook the wheel with my hands at 12 & 6 o'clock; there was no perceptible motion of the lower ball joints.

However, when shaking with my hands at 3 & 9 o'clock. there was an audible click which was hard to pinpoint where it was coming from. It seemed to be coming from inside the steering mechanism boot on the driver's side (see more detail below) but the tire that wore badly was the passenger side.

I then ran the LBJ pry-bar test from this URL - and (on both sides) my 4Runner lower ball joints didn't budge a bit:
- VERY BAD Ball Joints - WATCH THIS!!! - YouTube

Did I do that test right?

Here is the pry bar test on the passenger side (bad) tire:

Here is that same test on the driver side (good) tire:

Both sides seemed pretty tight to me.

The only thing that seemed awry was that slight clicking sound when shaking the wheel at the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock position.When I shook either one of the wheels, I could see the other wheel moving also.

Based on this Ford Explorer video, it seems (I think) my driver side inner tie rod end (inside the boot) is where (I think) the slight clicking is occurring when I shake at the 3 and 9 o'clock position.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKk33w86OSI

The weird thing is that the driver side is not the tire that is wearing abnormally!

I'm not sure if anything is actually wrong with the ball joints and/or tie rod ends yet.
Any advice?

EDIT: Here are seemingly good alignment DIY (but none are specifically for the 4Runner):
- [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times,sans-serif]Set Toe Properly
- Set Camber & Caster
[/FONT]

 

[HaYnrunner]

have you looked into the upper arm? the bushings could aslo be worn and causing a shift in camber. but as you said there was a "clicking" noise it could be the inner or outer tie rod, but also sheck the steering rack. its not a common wear item but the mounts on the rack can wear and shift but a tie rod/rack play would lead to a feathering tread more than a camber issue like you are seeing

Thanks everyone for the advice. My first step coming home today from work was to check the lower ball joints.

I have a dial gauge & clamp mechanism (for testing rotor runout); but I can't imagine how I'm supposed to apply 66 foot pounds of force to the lug nuts as described in the Toyota FSM.

How would anyone perform the test in the FSM?

Moving forward, I floor jacked the 4runner up by the center jack point below the engine & performed the recommended simple tire-shake test with the tires up in the air. (Note: I tried to put the 4runner on jack stands, but failed as per this thread.)

After jacking the centerpoint so that the wheels were freely dangling in the air, I shook the wheel with my hands at 12 & 6 o'clock; there was no perceptible motion of the lower ball joints.

However, when shaking with my hands at 3 & 9 o'clock. there was an audible click which was hard to pinpoint where it was coming from. It seemed to be coming from inside the steering mechanism boot on the driver's side (see more detail below) but the tire that wore badly was the passenger side.

I then ran the LBJ pry-bar test from this URL - and (on both sides) my 4Runner lower ball joints didn't budge a bit:
- VERY BAD Ball Joints - WATCH THIS!!! - YouTube

Did I do that test right?

Here is the pry bar test on the passenger side (bad) tire:

Here is that same test on the driver side (good) tire:

Both sides seemed pretty tight to me.

The only thing that seemed awry was that slight clicking sound when shaking the wheel at the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock position.When I shook either one of the wheels, I could see the other wheel moving also.

Based on this Ford Explorer video, it seems (I think) my driver side inner tie rod end (inside the boot) is where (I think) the slight clicking is occurring when I shake at the 3 and 9 o'clock position.
Front Suspension & Steering Inspection - YouTube

The weird thing is that the driver side is not the tire that is wearing abnormally!

I'm not sure if anything is actually wrong with the ball joints and/or tie rod ends yet.
Any advice?

 

[mom]

have you looked into the upper arm?

Thanks. I was wondering why the thread went dark for a while. I don't know what to look for next as the lower ball joints appear to be solid.

I was concentrating only on the lower ball joints. I was wondering if maybe I was doing the test wrong. For example, maybe I needed to jack under the "A frame" instead of under the center of the engine ... so that's why I mentioned in detail 'where' I jacked it up.

BTW, I just bought new (taller) jack stands ... so I can now shake harder. I was afraid to shake too much with the 4runner on just the jack itself.

the bushings could aslo be worn and causing a shift in camber

I'll have to look up what you mean by "the bushings"....

but as you said there was a "clicking" noise

I'll try to video it when I get home from work. I will need a friend to help with the video though...

it could be the inner or outer tie rod, but also sheck the steering rack.

I'll have to look up 'how' to check a steering rack and the tie rods. Just in case, I bought a two-pringed tie-rod puller today ...

a tie rod/rack play would lead to a feathering tread

Hmmmm.... The tread appeared 'feathered' before it was worn down to nothing ... so maybe it's the rack???

 

[nevada]

Oh look, its another thread where the LBJ HAS to be the problem, it doesn't have to be, it could potentially be the problem, but its not a surefire answer, Everyone here really wants everyone to drop $350 on new ball joints as if they are LBJ salesmen.

But yeah thats your alignment, my moms car's alignment was off the chart and the tire went in less than 8k miles and the car drove straight.

lower ball joints would normally cause wear to the INNER part of the tire, not the outer. that looks like the toe is way out. bad alignment.

has it ever been wrecked?

But i do agree they should be checked, but i would hope the mechanic doing the alignment would look at them cause they are right there where he is working.

truth. and a good shop would NOT do the alignment if it had worn parts. its impossible to get it correct.

long thread but for infos sake alighment shops can suck. I am done with them since I can ball park it better then my last two alignments. check for worn tierods, control arm bushings, UBJ, LBJ, rack bushings and then chalk is up to bad alignments.

maybe better than the last 2, but not even close to where it should be.

find a new shop.

 

[mom]

check for worn tierods, control arm bushings, UBJ, LBJ, rack bushings

I'll try to get some help to snap a video of the slight clunking sound when I wiggle the tires. I don't think it's the LBJ - but everything else is on the table.

that looks like the toe is way out. bad alignment.

That's starting to make sense since the clunking seems to be inside the steering boot. I'll try to measure the wheel-to-wheel toe - but I don't yet have the tools to measure single-wheel toe.

has it ever been wrecked?

Nope. No accidents ever.

Its not rocket science to align a truck

The tolerance is a problem, but, other than that, it looks doable from the garage - at least roughly.

when lifted its too much to ask of the average mech.

Mine is stock. 2wd. Should be as easy as can be to align properly.

My problem is twofold when I do the alignment:
a) I need to figure out what tools to buy, and,
b) I need to figure out what things to measure.

 

[98Base4R]

Nice thread, thanks for showing the base model some love.

The clicking sound is similar to a loose tie rod end on a Volvo 850 I owned. I found the TRE after Goodyear aligned it. I replaced the TRE, and got a no charge re-alignment, with plenty of grumbling. If the shop can't align due to worn parts, they need to bring up that fact before doing the work.

On the Volvo I could only see the TRE slop by looking at the (outer) end when I moved the tire and wheel, and listening. It was very subtle. Click-click-click as I moved the wheel with my hands at 3 and 9 o'clock. A corresponding amount of flex in the TRE, with a little movement that was only on one side. The boot was also torn on inspection.

Not to beat up on alignment techs (there are likely many more good than bad), but is it possible that some don't want to look for repair items, but just want to perform as many alignments as possible? It seems like many vehicles that need alignment would need a part replaced. Is it too much trouble to back it off the alignment rack and order parts? Is the $$$ in alignment volume?

This site does have a lot of "you should replace your LBJs" threads. The failure pics I have seen are of 4WD T4Rs with lifts. I cannot recall seeing pics of a 2WD, stock on the road failure. Most failures also seem to be at low speed.

The higher speed failures may not have lived to post about it.

My guess is that an inner tie rod solves your issue. I would do both inners while you are in there. If you figure out how to do LBJs in your garage you could replace yours w/OEM. Then post pics of your 190k removed LBJs w/boots removed, so we can know how bad (or how good) they look.

 

[mom]

It was very subtle. Click-click-click

I ran that same test today but I don't know if my results are normal or abnormal.

I get a slight click upon every push of the tire at the 3 & 9 o'clock position. Both wheels moved but I could not pinpoint 'where' the click was coming from. The click seemed to come high up in the engine bay - but that makes no sense to me.

Here are short videos of the click as I zoom in on each boot over the tie rod ends.
toyota 4runner tie rod or ball joint or bushing clunk avi 01 01 - YouTube
http://youtu.be/lPKvHYNAgiM

I don't know what to look for in a good setup - so - may I ask whether that video sounds and/or looks normal or not to others?

I'll see if I can follow this Yotatech home alignment DIY:
* 86-95 Trucks & 4Runners 2nd/3rd gen pickups, and 1st/2nd gen 4Runners with IFS

Searching here for all the 'camber' DIYs, I found this picture from this thread which seems to imply that the front camber eccentric is normally at the 12 o'clock position.

In my 4Runner, I noticed the passenger side front eccentric bolt was adjusted by the last alignment guy way differently than the driver's side was set. Here's a closeup of the passenger side. The yellow is the before and after marks I put before the guy did the alignment.

Personally, I don't trust that he did the alignment right (since the tires wore abnormally and I can't find anything obviously wrong with the ball joints or tie rod ends just yet)... so that's why I want to do a check at home, if I can.

Here's a closeup of the equivalent front-most eccentric on the driver side:
(Note: The rust is from the battery leaking acid a few years ago.)

Do these look OK to you?

 

[98Base4R]

OP - any update?

Could your a-arm be clicking, which would sound like noise from higher up in the engine bay?

I was inspired by this thread to tackle my own clicking issue. When I unbolted and released the outer tie rod, I could pull on the tie rod end and feel the "click" in the inner tie rod. The outer tie rod felt solid, but was leaking grease.

If you can't tell where the looseness and noise are coming from, you may want to use pull the tie rod to remove the wheel and associated hardware from the equation.

So back to the parts store for an outer tie rod, then to Firestone for an alignment. All went well, and it was $81 out the door. Only the toe was adjusted, no change to Camber or Caster.

My question: Is there a setting to pay attention to, that makes the car feel "settled" on the highway? I don't know if I'm trying to describe a darting tendency, or if it doesn't want to return to center as quickly as I'm used to. I know it is a short wheel base truck. The Camber settings were the closest to the limit... will an adjustment there change the steering feel?