Any damage if I keep everything else stock?

Jtraskell said:
Here is another issue that may not apply to you since you already ordered the bumper mentioned in your OP for other reasons. Years ago, manufactures were mandated by law to build passenger cars with "crush zones". At that time, "Trucks" were excluded from the legal mandate. I am dating myself here, but at that time there were no such thing as an SUV's as such and especially a CUV. Those vehicles which fit that genre were called station wagons!

Now, some 20 or 30 years later, I am not sure, but I have a feeling that ALL vehicles are built with "crush zones". If I am correct, then by putting on a stiffer, heavier front bumper on a TR4 , you may in fact be causing more problems if involved in a collision then you realize. Yes, the bumper will be able to Handel a stronger impact, but the forces of that impact may be increased into the passenger compartment defeating at least some of the designed "crush zones" designed to reduce those forces.....just saying. All those overworked and underpaid engineers designed those vehicles to take an impact and keep the pasengers as safe as possible. They, and rightfully so, do not care how much damage the front end incurs. As long as it "absorbs" the impact, vs the bodies in the passenger compartment absorbing the impact.

If you think a stiffer, stronger bumper is going to better protect the passengers in the cab, I think you will find that is wrong. If stiffer stronger "anything", fenders, frames, etc. etc, would protect better, I think we all would still be driving vehicles made in the 50's and 60's, they were made like TANKS!

In addition, from both personal and professional experience, I can assure you that a stronger "bumper" will NOT (in most cases) reduce or protect you from damage or injuries from a Deer/Elk/Moose collision at speed.

Most of those animals, when hit, will collapse the bumper, grill, hood and then possibly the windshield. If the bumper does not collapse (as designed) then the animal (depending on the strike point) may be "forced" or "deflected" higher, ending up in the cab, just because the "bumper" did not collapse as designed.......just sayin. Be safe. (as much as you can.....)
Click to expand...

The crush zone topic I have read in another post, but this guy had an SW bumper and another person pulled up in front of him, and the bumper had maybe a scratch or a little dent (not sure), and he was able to drive away. He found out later that his frame was bent up though. I'm not pretending to know what happened, but I THINK the impact was redirected to his frame, and the bumper kept his front end in one piece (come on 1engineer, where are you :) ). I would rather have a working engine and a bent frame, than a none working engine and no bent frame. Here's the link http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/88067-why-shrockworks-definitely-worth-price.html

I seriously considered buying a vehicle made from steel from back in the day, it would be cheap and the closest thing to a civilian tank :) But do they have airbags and such? Not sure.

So in your experience, bumpers like SW and ARB did not help when they hit a deer/elk? Or was it just from those grill guards/brush guards? Did the bumper (or grill guard) do more damage? I wonder at what speed, with the SW bumper, would I have to go to make a deer explode upon impact? I mean sometimes I see blood sprayed all over the highway and a bunch of deer chunks on the side of the road, meaning that dear probably exploded. Probably from a semi. Sometimes I see the deer on the side of the road with it's neck snapped and some blood, probably from a prius. So I wonder what the SW bumper will do? I really don't want to find out personally, but just curious you know. Since we are on this subject, are you suppose to maintain your speed when you hit a deer, not slam on the brakes? I heard if you just maintain your speed, the deer won't end up going through your windshield, but it'll just continue it's way over your car (hitting your windshield first though)? But in my case, due to the extreme nose dive, I would probably just pin the deer down :)

Just to clear some things up though, I am not a reckless driver. I will not be driving around town thinking the 4R will own all the other cars because of the SW bumper. I am a very defensive driver, and have been in zero accidents, and caused zero accidents, knock on wood. I drove through blizzards with heavy snow and icy roads and managed to stay out of the ditches. My wife has been in 4 accidents, 1 not her fault, 3 her fault. Thankfully no one got hurt or killed. The cars she drove though, are now gone. She too, does not, and will not, think she's invincible, she just needs to learn how to drive like me :) And that's why I do all of the driving when the family is together :)
 
KCcarguy said:
Expanding on what Jtraskell said. From my experience working in the OR, many severe injuries sustained in car wrecks are a result of sudden changes in momentum/ shearing forces, etc.. At high speed, that big bumper will not prevent your neck from breaking, your brain from bleeding, or your liver/ spleen lacerating.

It should also be pointed out that by adding a heavy front bumper and possibly making your vehicle harder to control, you could be increasing your risk for roll-over, etc.

I'm not trying to rag on you for adding this bumper for protection....maybe it'll work, and maybe not (I wish our resident engineer would chime-in on this). In the end, it's your truck and you have a right to do with it what you want. I hope you guys stay safe.

:thumb3:
Click to expand...

Thanks, I know you're not ragging on me man. I appreciate your input (and everyone else). Like I said before, I am a very defensive driver, my wife I'm trying to teach :) You can only prevent so much, and it only takes a split second for someone to mess up and you're dead. I always do my best to avoid situations where an accident could happen and prepare for them (hence the extra armor), and when it's outta my hands, it's outta my hands. I had two close friends who died in car accidents. 1 was from a drunk driver. And the other one was his fault, he fell asleep when driving. Vehicles can be deadly, drive safe everyone.
 
tlflow said:
Crumple zone are prevailent in unibody vehicles like cars (and some jeeps). Body on frame vehicles have the steel frame to provide structural integrity. By replacing your front bumper (aluminum 2X4) with a big old hunk of steel you truck will be substanially more resilient (please see attached link for example)

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/88067-why-shrockworks-definitely-worth-price.html

I am sure that the occassional deer will fair far worse, but the bumper is easily cleaned with soap and water!

I am sure that you will want to stiffin up the front end first, call a few vendors and discuss what you are doing and they can help you make a good decision.

ps1 You can't brake hard enough to blow out you tires, or endo you truck
ps2 Brake assist can't do it either ... but it will scare the crap out of you
Click to expand...

I love that thread, after seeing how strong the SW bumper is, I had to get it. So have you seen/know of anyone hitting a deer with a SW or ARB bumper? What was the end result?

Looks like the plan so far is to upgrade my tires based on Jtraskell's suggestion and see how that goes with the cornering, body roll, and nose dive, then most likely stiff up the front end. Thanks for your input.
 
whodat said:
... I wonder at what speed, with the SW bumper, would I have to go to make a deer explode upon impact? I mean sometimes I see blood sprayed all over the highway and a bunch of deer chunks on the side of the road, meaning that dear probably exploded.
Click to expand...

Exploding deer are a regional phenomenon. In parts of Texas the deer are so fragile that spontaneously explode when there is a rapid drop in barimetric pressure. (I'm am still hoping to explode one this winter)

Further north they are much more sturdy, you would have to be traveling near relativistic velocity to stand a good chance of blowing one up.

However, this would mean that your own mass would tend to infinity {remember that as V appraches Vc, m= m(rest)/sqrt( 1+ (V^2)/(Vc)^2)}.

So, unfortunately you too would explode. But you would see it happen.
 
Good luck man. Let us know how it drives after install on stock suspension and how each subsequent upgrade helps!

:cheers:
 
haha I was thinking what's BR and NO in Texas (based on your location) whodat! the other post reminded me of the old days of studying engineering, did 2 years of it, ace'd differential equations and every math class before it, but man, all that hard work and low pay and all the jobs going to India, I had to jump ship.
 
whodat said:
I know what you're saying about turns over 20mph, normally I am a very cautious driver, not really in a hurry. But once in a while I am running a little late for work (in other words, I'm not there early) and I turn the corner kinda fast and the body roll is definitely there, and the tires "screech" a little too. I definitely see your point with the extra weight and sidewalls of the tires being pushed beyond its limit. I know my next upgrade will be tires. I'll take your advice and go from their if I need any other upgrade(s). After lurking so much on this forum, I learned a lot and I have been swayed to the duratracs. I know SeattleMike really liked them a lot and the guy just had a way of convincing people with his confidence. For me, getting some duratracs is kinda like paying homage to the guy. Every time I see one of his old posts, I think to myself, he punked us, he's still alive! But I look at the date and nope, RIP Mike. Sorry for the side track.

Funny how I read a thread about the motorcycle hitch the other day and 1Engineer was talking about the same thing with extra weight being add to the tongue due to bumps and and pot holes, something about vectors and such (sorry wasn't taking notes 1Engineer), so I understand what you're saying. Worse case scenario, I brake real hard, nose dive, and blow out my tires. Gotta get new tires honie, duratracs should do the trick :)
Click to expand...

Duratracs are fine tires, just make sure you get the stronger load range in whatever tire you decide to buy! Be safe.
 
tlflow said:
Crumple zone are prevalent in unibody vehicles like cars (and some jeeps). Body on frame vehicles have the steel frame to provide structural integrity. By replacing your front bumper (aluminum 2X4) with a big old hunk of steel you truck will be substantially more resilient (please see attached link for example)

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/88067-why-shrockworks-definitely-worth-price.html

I am sure that the occasional deer will fair far worse, but the bumper is easily cleaned with soap and water!

I am sure that you will want to stiffen up the front end first, call a few vendors and discuss what you are doing and they can help you make a good decision.

ps1 You can't brake hard enough to blow out you tires, or endo you truck
ps2 Brake assist can't do it either ... but it will scare the crap out of you
Click to expand...

You are correct as to unibody, but years ago in the time of yor, passenger cars were also body on frame and they too had crumple zones. Trucks were exempt for a time. They MAY not be exempt any longer. I have not looked into it. If you crawl under your 4runner, and see "holes" and or "indentations" towards the front of the frame rails, those are crush zones. Might also be have some towards the rear of the frame rails. I have not crawled under there yet to look. I will later today!

While a strong bumper is great at lower speeds, the problem is a higher speed collision. All the energy is transferred to and through the passenger compartment during accidents. I would much rather have that energy absorbed by the crush zone.

When I talked about hitting an animal at speed, I did say depending at speed and strike point and also of course the size of the animal. Just saying, it is a collision and as such, many injuries occur.

Yea, you can blow out your tire (s) while hard braking, and especially if there is extra stress/weight on the front end. Think about it. The bead of the tire can separate from the wheel, happens all the time. This usually occurs when hard braking combined with a hard turn. Pulls the tire to the side of the wheel too far. Be safe.
 
Wow,
You guys have hit on a lot of important topics in this thread! While most of what you guys posted is true and none of you really went out on a ledge you couldn’t get back from, it seems you are combining many questions and attempting to answer them all at one time. After reading through this thread here is what I perceive being asked:

1. If I add extra weight to the front of my vehicle will I need to upgrade the OEM suspension components?
2. If I add this weight in the form of a steel bumper will it make the occupants of the 4Runner safer?
3. How is the steel bumper different than the old bumper as it pertains to “crumple” zones?

Before we begin please take a look at this old guy named Newton and his three laws:
(BTW get a coffee and pastry or a Coke and nabs because this will take some time!)
1. First law: The velocity of a body remains constant unless the body is acted upon by an external force.
2. Second law: The acceleration a of a body is parallel and directly proportional to the net force F and inversely proportional to the mass m, i.e., F = ma.
3. Third law: The mutual forces of action and reaction between two bodies are equal, opposite and collinear.

Alright, got that? These won’t help answer the first question but will help answer the other two. OK, here we go:

1. If I add extra weight to the front of my vehicle will I need to upgrade the OEM suspension components?
Short answer – No. Whodat compared it to a fat kid sitting on the existing front bumper and that is as good as any. What you need to think about is what components will have an additional load by adding 60-80 more (New bumper – Old bumper) pounds to the front of the vehicle: Tires, torsion bar, Upper control arm and front suspension.
Tires – Remember your front tires are rated at a maximum load just like the rear tires and usually they are the same tire. You don’t think twice about putting 400 lbs on your hitch, two adults in the back and all kinds of gear in the cargo area so what are you worried about adding weight to the front? So tires should be no problem. Front suspension components though are a little different. You basically will be preloading them a little more with the new bumper. Will it handle different? Sure, a little but probably not any different than two 250 lb people in the front seats vs two 150 lb people in the front seat. I could calculate the weight delta at the CL of the front wheels of the bumper of adding 80 more lbs of bumper vs adding 200 lbs with the people but my gut tells me it would be close. Add it to the fact that a vehicle’s load changes from one trip to the next (500 lbs in the rear or 400 lbs in the backseat) and you see what I mean. Think of it this way: I add 80 lbs up front. To offset this weight I add “X” weight to the rear and the resultant will be a wash.
Personally I think you will have a little more shock wear over time. If it were me I would put some “C” rated tires on it which will give you more sidewall stiffness. I probably would add a heavier shock too but then again this is what I am going to do with my stock 4Runner anyway to help handling.

2. If I add this weight in the form of a steel bumper will it make the occupants of the 4Runner safer?
Answer = No. What it will do though is minimize front end sheet metal damage in a low speed impact. There are two ways people get hurt in a vehicle during an accident: A) Something that does not belong comes into the passenger compartment like a steering shaft, engine block, sheet metal, rock, etc. or B) Sudden acceleration or deceleration of the occupants. Item “A” is easy to explain. If you want to know more about item “B”, then Google Col. Jon Stapp. He was the “test dummy” that I learned about in Dynamics class 100 years ago or so. Suffice to say a human body can take a lot “G’s”. I will say that while the added bumper will increase rigidity of the structure it will also increase the sudden deceleration on the occupant, which in my mind will negate any gains. A quick word of vehicle safety from my sponsor:

The safest vehicles are modern race cars. If you really want to make a safe vehicle then add a complete roll cage, a HANS device, 5 point harness and helmets. This is what is required. Anything less you might as well keep it stock. Remember all the crash test data is at relatively slow speeds. Ever wonder why they don’t test at 70-75 mph? Because you usually don’t walk away from a crash at those speeds in any stock passenger vehicle.
The biggest problem though of adding that bumper is what you could do to a pedestrian. Vehicles are designed the way they are not because all engineers are thoughtful and safety conscious, but because there are rules and laws governing design. Pedestrian strikes are why front ends are designed the way they are. Of course slow speeds only as high speed strikes cannot be made safer. This brings us to:

3. How is the steel bumper different than the old bumper as it pertains to “crumple” zones?
My answer in a minute. Here are a few examples of crash scenarios. See if you can pick the one most likely to walk away.
• Bicycle hitting a Toyota Prius head on at 70 MPH.
• Prius hitting a Dodge 3500 Mega Cab 4X4 head on at 70 MPH.
• Dodge 3500 Mega Cab 4X4 hitting a Long Nose Kenworth head on at 70 MPH.
• Long Nose Kenworth hitting a Bridge Support head on at 70 MPH.
The answers are easy right? Referring back to Newton’s laws you can see that heavier is better until you get to the bridge support. Nobody wins when you hit one of those.


Never forget that the design of ANYTHING is all about compromise. Designing a vehicle like ours is no different. A consumer wants:
• Great looks
• High performance
• Safety
• Comfort
• Fuel Efficiency
• Reliability
• All at a low cost

Looking at the list above you can see how for example, fuel efficiency could be improved if we got rid of all the added weight of the airbags and safety hardware. Comfort could be improved if we added La-Z-boy recliners. That would make safety and fuel efficiency take a hit though. We could increase performance but reliability and efficiency would suffer. You get my point. It’s all about compromise. NOW to answer question 3:

It is probably easier and cheaper to make crumple zones. Full frames use a lot of steel and add weight, which decreases fuel economy. So, which one is safer? Go back up to the crash scenarios I listed above. Looks like mass is king there. In a low speed crash crumple zones are fine. They deform and protect the vehicle’s occupants. But at least in my mind mass wins at higher speeds. The vehicle engineers are constantly having to make compromises to meet the needs of consumers and to stay within the safety and fuel economy rules set forth by our government. I am a firm believer in safety but I understand compromise. Your steel bumper is no safer hitting a bridge support at 70 mph than anything else as your percentage of mass did not change much. Just remember, if something is designed to crumple, it will crumple even more at higher speeds.
While everything above is based on fact there are opinions in there too. Hope you enjoyed my answers. Good luck and I like the looks of them too!
 
Not to nitpick but this thread is almost 24 hours old before 1engineer replied. While I'm all for the superhero showing up just in the nick of time, in the future please do your best to show up faster when we light up the 1E spotlight. :surfer:
 
phillyd2 said:
Not to nitpick but this thread is almost 24 hours old before 1engineer replied. While I'm all for the superhero showing up just in the nick of time, in the future please do your best to show up faster when we light up the 1E spotlight. :surfer:
Click to expand...

Sorry. My head has been involved in a Brazilian project that I completed late last night. Hopefully my answer absconds me for my tar d ness. (it will not let me type that word)
 
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My friend put on a ARB front bumper on his new Tacoma with stock suspension for 5 years and 140k miles with the bumper on with no problems. Sure his shocks needed replacement after 100k miles but he off roaded a lot. So if I were you just put on the Shrockworks front bumper and see how it handles, if you are not satisfied upgrade as you wish.

If I were in your shoes and had a wife that yanked on the wheel on emergency situations to avoid accidents prematurely I would of gotten the KDSS model. This would help a lot to reduce body roll in maneuvers like what you described. I would think the non KDSS 4runner would lean more and would freak out your wife in certain emergency situations causing a dangerous situation even more dangerous. So a KDSS model would of benefited your wife in these types of scenarios.

This is the reason if I ever do purchase a 4runner it would be the KDSS model seems to be more stable.
 
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1engineer said:
Sorry. My head has been involved in a Brazilian project that I completed late last night. Hopefully my answer absconds me for my tar d ness. (it will not let me type that word)
Click to expand...

Yeah. I'm pretty hairy too. Waxing can take up a whole evening.
 
Maybe Tom Brady spent too much time with his head in a Brazilian project last saturday.
 
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1engineer said:
Wow,
The safest vehicles are modern race cars. If you really want to make a safe vehicle then add a complete roll cage, a HANS device, 5 point harness and helmets. This is what is required. Anything less you might as well keep it stock. Remember all the crash test data is at relatively slow speeds. Ever wonder why they don’t test at 70-75 mph? Because you usually don’t walk away from a crash at those speeds in any stock passenger vehicle.
Click to expand...

Agreed, if you are going really fast you're screwed, even in a race car.

What are your thoughts on the velocity required for exploding a deer with a T4R?
 
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