Biker Gang Incident

[Jumpkix]

If you're in the same situation as the SUV driver and you actually have a firearm and use it, I think it would be easy to articulate, later on, that you feared for your life: who wouldn't when you're outnumbered and someone is breaking in your window?

They were slashing his tires. The guy that got run over could be the awesomest good samaritan in the world, and you still couldn't hold the RR driver responsible.

That's what scares me. Common sense tells you that this guy did what any other human being probably would have done. Yet someone will try to spin this story as "racially motivated", or we should regulate the sale of SUVs because of this.

 

[KidVermicious]

Not all SUVs, just Range Rovers. They're obviously a menace.

 

[bofa]

Not all SUVs, just Assault Vehicles. They're obviously a menace.

ftfy - favor returned.

 

[theliman]

Question for everyone saying that if they had a gun, they would have used it: Don't you think after you shoot one guy and then try to speed off, or stick around, or whatever, something worse is going to come from the numerous remaining bikers?

I would think many of them had guns, and at least a few of them would be motivated to chase after and return fire back at your car (with your family).

This really is just a question, not arguing. Seems like introducing a gun to the situation may very well be legally justified, but would just end horribly for you and your family as well. More horribly than getting your face beat up and having a lot of stitches.

 

[Jumpkix]

Question for everyone saying that if they had a gun, they would have used it: Don't you think after you shoot one guy and then try to speed off, or stick around, or whatever, something worse is going to come from the numerous remaining bikers?

I would think many of them had guns, and at least a few of them would be motivated to chase after and return fire back at your car (with your family).

This really is just a question, not arguing. Seems like introducing a gun to the situation may very well be legally justified, but would just end horribly for you and your family as well. More horribly than getting your face beat up and having a lot of stitches.

You have to be realistic and realize that if you opened fire on that guy busting your window, there's a good chance those other biker dudes return fire on you. But either way, your family is in danger at that point. I'm not saying it's the right decision, but if someone were trying to pull me out of my vehicle and away from my wife and child that I will guard with my life, I'm gonna cap that sap.

 

[bofa]

Question for everyone saying that if they had a gun, they would have used it: Don't you think after you shoot one guy and then try to speed off, or stick around, or whatever, something worse is going to come from the numerous remaining bikers?

I would think many of them had guns, and at least a few of them would be motivated to chase after and return fire back at your car (with your family).

This really is just a question, not arguing. Seems like introducing a gun to the situation may very well be legally justified, but would just end horribly for you and your family as well. More horribly than getting your face beat up and having a lot of stitches.

I think most here are saying they would have avoided using a gun and tried to keep moving. But, yeah at the point where you are boxed in and they are bashing on the glass with helmets, it would have been necessary to use deadly force imo.

 

[KidVermicious]

Question for everyone saying that if they had a gun, they would have used it: Don't you think after you shoot one guy and then try to speed off, or stick around, or whatever, something worse is going to come from the numerous remaining bikers?

It's entirely possible. That's why the firearm would be a last resort.

Seems like introducing a gun to the situation may very well be legally justified, but would just end horribly for you and your family as well. More horribly than getting your face beat up and having a lot of stitches.

Yeah ok, Captain Hindsight. The next time my family and I are being assaulted by a gang of biker thugs, I'll go ahead and leave my handgun in the truck, because hey, that guy in New York just got beat up a little is all.

 

[Limbwalker]

Hmmmm...no gun in the car and Im trapped by thugs in traffic with my wife and son in the car? As soon as they bashed out the window and pulled me out, Im afraid to say they'd probably be arranging my funeral, not talking about charges... But helmet swinger? Yeah, he's going down with me

 

[theliman]

Yeah ok, Captain Hindsight. The next time my family and I are being assaulted by a gang of biker thugs, I'll go ahead and leave my handgun in the truck, because hey, that guy in New York just got beat up a little is all.

Thanks for the reply, complete with necessary snark. I was asking a legitimate question. That my simple question so quickly resulted in name-calling is why I just need to stay out of these discussions.

If I had a gun in my car at the time I believe my mind would process "fire this, and all hell will break loose." Yes, of course I don't know what's going to happen. But I would think driving away would more likely lead to a better outcome than a potential (likely?) exchange of bullets.

 

[KidVermicious]

But I would think driving away would more likely lead to a better outcome than a potential (likely?) exchange of bullets.

Which is exactly what EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE THREAD (except that one guy) has said. Oh, and except for you. Driving away wasn't an option in your hypothetical - you presented a) pull a gun and die or b) "just get beat up a little", if I may be allowed to paraphrase. That's a false dilemma, and effectively a strawman.

Are you intentionally debating dishonestly, or were you just so eager to get your anti-gun digs in that you forget what everybody else was saying?

 

[Hepar]

Thanks for the reply, complete with necessary snark. I was asking a legitimate question. That my simple question so quickly resulted in name-calling is why I just need to stay out of these discussions.

If I had a gun in my car at the time I believe my mind would process "fire this, and all hell will break loose." Yes, of course I don't know what's going to happen. But I would think driving away would more likely lead to a better outcome than a potential (likely?) exchange of bullets.

I'd have to agree with you. I hear all this talk of what if the guy had a gun. Well, I can imagine that IF the driver had a gun and IF just a couple of the riders had guns too, the outcome would most likely include several fatalities instead of injuries.

 

[LandCruiser]

I'd have to agree with you. I hear all this talk of what if the guy had a gun. Well, I can imagine that IF the driver had a gun and IF just a couple of the riders had guns too, the outcome would most likely include several fatalities instead of injuries.

You'd think that. But most untrained people shrivel away if they suddenly see the person next to them lit up. I seriously doubt these thugs would have continued to chase the SUV if fired upon.

 

[Hepar]

You'd think that. But most untrained people shrivel away if they suddenly see the person next to them lit up. I seriously doubt these thugs would have continued to chase the SUV if fired upon.

I'd agree IF no one in the bike group had firearms either. However, if you add guns on top of a "I'm the baddest man on the road" type of attitude, then I think you would see a return in gunfire.

I am not anti-gun, however I do feel like many people should stay away from them as many people react strongly on their emotions. Adding a firearm to that will only make things worse.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...and-kill-each-other-after-road-rage-incident/

 

[theliman]

Which is exactly what EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE THREAD (except that one guy) has said. Oh, and except for you. Driving away wasn't an option in your hypothetical - you presented a) pull a gun and die or b) "just get beat up a little", if I may be allowed to paraphrase. That's a false dilemma, and effectively a strawman.

Are you intentionally debating dishonestly, or were you just so eager to get your anti-gun digs in that you forget what everybody else was saying?

Hey man, not sure why you have it out for me. I'm not anti-gun at all. I own several, and I do not want to take them away from myself.

I didn't do anything dishonestly. Just pondering the idea that shooting someone in this situation could be worse than fleeing. Maybe some people would respond that they realize this but it's a risk they think, all things considered, is the best action. Maybe some people will agree. Maybe some people will say that they believe most of the bikers wouldn't be armed and would hesitate to approach the source of gunfire.

Maybe some people will call me names, determine that I'm anti-gun, and accuse me of debating dishonestly.

As for my argument, and your assertion that driving away wasn't optional... I mention "speeding off," that the bikers would "chase after," and "driving away" in my posts.

I thought a forum that united people with at least some similar interests could be a place for friendly discourse. My bad.

 

[LandCruiser]

I'd agree IF no one in the bike group had firearms either. However, if you add guns on top of a "I'm the baddest man on the road" type of attitude, then I think you would see a return in gunfire.

I am not anti-gun, however I do feel like many people should stay away from them as many people react strongly on their emotions. Adding a firearm to that will only make things worse.

Two Michigan Drivers Shoot and Kill Each Other After Road Rage Incident - ABC News

As a former parmedic who has been shot at (they winged my partner) I always wonder what would I have done if I was armed at the time. Getting him to safety was really my only priority--I've ALSO wondered how stupid we all look when we think we can dodge a bullet...

 

[KidVermicious]

Hey man, not sure why you have it out for me. I'm not anti-gun at all. I own several, and I do not want to take them away from myself.

I didn't do anything dishonestly. Just pondering the idea that shooting someone in this situation could be worse than fleeing. Maybe some people would respond that they realize this but it's a risk they think, all things considered, is the best action. Maybe some people will agree. Maybe some people will say that they believe most of the bikers wouldn't be armed and would hesitate to approach the source of gunfire.

Maybe some people will call me names, determine that I'm anti-gun, and accuse me of debating dishonestly.

As for my argument, and your assertion that driving away wasn't optional... I mention "speeding off," that the bikers would "chase after," and "driving away" in my posts.

I thought a forum that united people with at least some similar interests could be a place for friendly discourse. My bad.

Ok, I apologize if I over-reacted. But if you weren't setting up a straw man, then who exactly are you talking to you? The post that I originally responded to said...

Question for everyone saying that if they had a gun,

... but who said they wanted to pull a gun? Unless I missed it, pretty much everybody except wnelax04sr5 agreed that pulling a gun would be a bad idea, even the guys in this thread that regularly CC. So you'll pardon me if it seemed like your question was an attempt to set up a straw man argument.

To get this back on track, I agree with you that driving away is a far better defensive measure than opening fire. If they managed to immobilize my truck and I had my window being broken in, I'd open fire, and I wouldn't stop shooting until they were all on the ground or running away, or I was mobbed and disarmed.

 

[1engineer]

If that were me in the Rover with my family, and my vehicle was disabled or unmovable, I would use whatever weapon I had at my disposal to get my family to safety. Bats, guns, Ninja stars, shoes or anything else. The actual vehicle though is the best weapon as long as it can move.

 

[theliman]

Ok, I apologize if I over-reacted. But if you weren't setting up a straw man, then who exactly are you talking to you? The post that I originally responded to said...

... but who said they wanted to pull a gun? Unless I missed it, pretty much everybody except wnelax04sr5 agreed that pulling a gun would be a bad idea, even the guys in this thread that regularly CC. So you'll pardon me if it seemed like your question was an attempt to set up a straw man argument.

To get this back on track, I agree with you that driving away is a far better defensive measure than opening fire. If they managed to immobilize my truck and I had my window being broken in, I'd open fire, and I wouldn't stop shooting until they were all on the ground or running away, or I was mobbed and disarmed.

I see where you're coming from. I was just trying to pick the brains of wnelax04sr5, RunninInGA (“We just saw what NOT having a weapon looks like”), JumpKix (“But if someone was endangering my family and I was carrying, I would drop them”), Bofa (“But yeah if I was stuck, the dude swinging the helmet would not have had a good day. That kind of leaves you no choice. But then again this is NYC so no one is armed”), DarkLord (“In this case, if someone were up to my window bashing it in while I had my kids in the car I believe I would have been able to articulate the use of deadly force in that situation”), RandyDaytona (“If you're in the same situation as the SUV driver and you actually have a firearm and use it, I think it would be easy to articulate, later on, that you feared for your life”).

Yes, these are small quotes pulled from larger statements. I just wanted to keep it concise and get to the point that I was directing my question to these people who have showed that they believe in some cases it would not be unreasonable to use an available firearm. I agree with them, for the most part! Just asking what I thought was a reasonable follow-up question. There were a few more, but they mentioned being "stuck" (edit: I also left at least one of those in, by accident)

 

[RunninInGA]

I see where you're coming from. I was just trying to pick the brains of wnelax04sr5, RunninInGA (“We just saw what NOT having a weapon looks like”), JumpKix (“But if someone was endangering my family and I was carrying, I would drop them”), Bofa (“But yeah if I was stuck, the dude swinging the helmet would not have had a good day. That kind of leaves you no choice. But then again this is NYC so no one is armed”), DarkLord (“In this case, if someone were up to my window bashing it in while I had my kids in the car I believe I would have been able to articulate the use of deadly force in that situation”), RandyDaytona (“If you're in the same situation as the SUV driver and you actually have a firearm and use it, I think it would be easy to articulate, later on, that you feared for your life”).

Yes, these are small quotes pulled from larger statements. I just wanted to keep it concise and get to the point that I was directing my question to these people who have showed that they believe in some cases it would not be unreasonable to use an available firearm. I agree with them, for the most part! Just asking what I thought was a reasonable follow-up question. There were a few more, but they mentioned being "stuck" (edit: I also left at least one of those in, by accident)

You've taken comments out of context and tried to add your own - that's a dangerous thing to do.

My gut tells me once the dude that tried bashing the windows in with his helmet hit the ground with extra holes in his face and his brains leaking out, the others would have taken a step back and may have thought differently about their next course of action.

My hesitation in that instance would have been driven by the thought of what if it doesn't affect them the way I expect it to....and what happens when my mag and extra mag run dry....

I still don't know what exactly I would have done other than tried to keep moving. They obviously thought about that too, which is the reason they slashed his tires. You cannot tell me this was NOT premeditated however.

 

[nevada]

You'd think that. But most untrained people shrivel away if they suddenly see the person next to them lit up. I seriously doubt these thugs would have continued to chase the SUV if fired upon.

indeed. when they watch their buddy get his face blown off, they may change their minds just slightly.

To get this back on track, I agree with you that driving away is a far better defensive measure than opening fire. If they managed to immobilize my truck and I had my window being broken in, I'd open fire, and I wouldn't stop shooting until they were all on the ground or running away, or I was mobbed and disarmed.

once the window was broken, and they were getting inside, that's when you fire.

If that were me in the Rover with my family, and my vehicle was disabled or unmovable, I would use whatever weapon I had at my disposal to get my family to safety. Bats, guns, Ninja stars, shoes or anything else. The actual vehicle though is the best weapon as long as it can move.

agreed. once its disabled, or boxed in is when you resort to firearms.