Biker Gang Incident

[theliman]

You've taken comments out of context and tried to add your own - that's a dangerous thing to do.

I very deliberately noted that these were excerpts from larger quotes, and it was the accumulation of comments along those lines that, perhaps subconsciously, motivated me to ask a question. I was just defending myself against the idea of creating a straw man.

I agree with everything you've said. Was not implying anything regarding your comment except that you may have been the type of person I was referring to when I followed up by touching more on fleeing vs. using a gun. Which is why I didn't use the quote button, because I was not meaning to call anyone out, but just to answer a point by Kevin.

 

[RunninInGA]

I very deliberately noted that these were excerpts from larger quotes, and it was the accumulation of comments along those lines that, perhaps subconsciously, motivated me to ask a question. I was just defending myself against the idea of creating a straw man.

I agree with everything you've said. Was not implying anything regarding your comment except that you may have been the type of person I was referring to when I followed up by touching more on fleeing vs. using a gun. Which is why I didn't use the quote button, because I was not meaning to call anyone out, but just to answer a point by Kevin.

No worries.

 

[wnelax04sr5]

[MENTION=51046]theliman[/MENTION] [MENTION=49649]KidVermicious[/MENTION] after eliminating gut reaction and emotion that came out yesterday, i can say with conviction that what [MENTION=49649]KidVermicious[/MENTION] said here..

"driving away is a far better defensive measure than opening fire. If they managed to immobilize my truck and I had my window being broken in, I'd open fire, and I wouldn't stop shooting until they were all on the ground or running away, or I was mobbed and disarmed."

is what i most agree with. before you jump all over me, im not redacting anything i said and pretending it didnt happen, simply eating a slice of humble pie and admitting emotions and my heart spoke louder than my rationality and brain.

 

[KidVermicious]

[MENTION=51046]theliman[/MENTION] [MENTION=49649]KidVermicious[/MENTION] after eliminating gut reaction and emotion that came out yesterday, i can say with conviction that what [MENTION=49649]KidVermicious[/MENTION] said here..

"driving away is a far better defensive measure than opening fire. If they managed to immobilize my truck and I had my window being broken in, I'd open fire, and I wouldn't stop shooting until they were all on the ground or running away, or I was mobbed and disarmed."

is what i most agree with. before you jump all over me, im not redacting anything i said and pretending it didnt happen, simply eating a slice of humble pie and admitting emotions and my heart spoke louder than my rationality and brain.

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar, and I take back half the bad things I said about you. :cheers:

 

[wnelax04sr5]

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar, and I take back half the bad things I said about you. :cheers:

you can still call me cowboy though :lmao:

 

[KCcarguy]

Question for everyone saying that if they had a gun, they would have used it: Don't you think after you shoot one guy and then try to speed off, or stick around, or whatever, something worse is going to come from the numerous remaining bikers?

I would think many of them had guns, and at least a few of them would be motivated to chase after and return fire back at your car (with your family).

This really is just a question, not arguing. Seems like introducing a gun to the situation may very well be legally justified, but would just end horribly for you and your family as well. More horribly than getting your face beat up and having a lot of stitches.

I agree with you, except a couple things. In he the heat of the moment, when 50 people surround me and my family and start breaking windows....ESPECIALLY one with my child sitting on the other side...I might start shooting at that point. It might not be the best option/ smartest move, but I don't know many parents who wouldn't use whatever means they had to protect their children.

But, watching from the comfort of my kitchen, I think some Bat-shit crazy Range Rover driving would have been more effective than a gun.

Lastly, getting beat by a bunch of angry young men can get you more than "a bunch of stitches". He could have easily ended up with an intracranial bleed and died. His life was in danger, no doubt.

 

[soj1057]

I’m not sure why some people feel the need to express that these bikers were not a gang? Because they weren’t patched? Or wearing colors? They were traveling in force as a group, they actively worked together to assault a man, those that “weren’t guilty” became guilty as soon as they chose to stick with the gang in pursuit of the rover. I would have rolled over every single one of them as well.

 

[eddiebx]

You've taken comments out of context and tried to add your own - that's a dangerous thing to do.

My gut tells me once the dude that tried bashing the windows in with his helmet hit the ground with extra holes in his face and his brains leaking out, the others would have taken a step back and may have thought differently about their next course of action.

My hesitation in that instance would have been driven by the thought of what if it doesn't affect them the way I expect it to....and what happens when my mag and extra mag run dry....

I still don't know what exactly I would have done other than tried to keep moving. They obviously thought about that too, which is the reason they slashed his tires. You cannot tell me this was NOT premeditated however.

One thing to consider is that well...a lot of them JUST watched their buddies get run over by the range rover and that certainly didn't seem to stop them from attempting to cage the range rover in with their bikes over and over again.

IMO a lot of these kind of people seem to have no regards for their own life. They absolutely do not care if they die at any given instant, so chances are if they see their friend's brains get blown out, they will all probably try to attack you even harder.

I've personally encountered these type of bike gangs on the NY highways, and well they literally used their bikes as a weapon by swerving at me and causing me to swerve to avoid hitting them and ended up almost spinning out at 70 mph. What caused this is that one biker decided to use his bike as a road block on the right lane, and just came to a complete stop to hold up traffic so all of their friends can merge onto the highway from the shoulder. Of course I was driving in the right lane at normal highway speeds and I had to slam on the brakes and honk, which naturally means they need to chase me down and get "revenge". Just a bunch of ruthless animals, and even worse in big packs.

Like you have said though about this current event, the smartest thing to do is to just keep moving if you can and hope the cops arrive quickly...I doubt many of us have mentally prepared to encounter these types of extreme situations, gun owner or not. Natural instincts would just tell us to flee to safety, and then try to hold down the fort if given no choice.

 

[Dark Lord]

Hey man, not sure why you have it out for me. I'm not anti-gun at all. I own several, and I do not want to take them away from myself.

I didn't do anything dishonestly. Just pondering the idea that shooting someone in this situation could be worse than fleeing. Maybe some people would respond that they realize this but it's a risk they think, all things considered, is the best action. Maybe some people will agree. Maybe some people will say that they believe most of the bikers wouldn't be armed and would hesitate to approach the source of gunfire.

Maybe some people will call me names, determine that I'm anti-gun, and accuse me of debating dishonestly.

As for my argument, and your assertion that driving away wasn't optional... I mention "speeding off," that the bikers would "chase after," and "driving away" in my posts.

I thought a forum that united people with at least some similar interests could be a place for friendly discourse. My bad.

If I were to call someone Captain Hindsight, it would not be in a demeaning manner, it would be to prove a point. I don't believe calling someone Captain Hindsight is aimed at making fun of someone. Anybody can Monday morning quarterback somebody, but when you look at use of force you have to imagine it from the point of view of that person in that situation at that point in time. You can't judge somebody after all the facts are known.

I believe what KidVermicious was trying to say is that you don't know that the biker's intentions were to beat you up a little. I think it's obvious (I guess not for everybody) that the best choices are to take as many defensive actions as possible before resorting to deadly force. Once you're pinned, cannot drive anymore, and are forced to use a deadly weapon, that is the only time it should be used. When all other options are exhausted.

In this case, Alexian Lein did use deadly force by using his vehicle to escape a potentially dangerous situation. If you don't think a 6000 pound vehicle can be considered a deadly weapon, think again.

 

[RandyDaytona]

That's what scares me. Common sense tells you that this guy did what any other human being probably would have done. Yet someone will try to spin this story as "racially motivated", or we should regulate the sale of SUVs because of this.

Yup. That's certainly something you have to consider in our sue-happy/spin-crazy society.

But at the moment when it's all happening, I think you just have to try to make the best decisions you can with the information at hand and make an honest effort to 1) avoid confrontation if possible and, if not 2) defend yourself and your family. You just have to worry about the bozos later on.

Yeah, common sense doesn't seem to be our society's strong suit, sometimes.

 

[zopperman]

i wish they'd incorporated this into the end of Breaking Bad and Walt went crazy with the m60 but instead it was in the range rover and laid out all the bikers.

 

[Millerad1651]

i wish they'd incorporated this into the end of Breaking Bad and Walt went crazy with the m60 but instead it was in the range rover and laid out all the bikers.

I really hope this isn't a spoiler for the end of Breaking Bad...if it is, not cool man. If not, disregard.

 

[zopperman]

I really hope this isn't a spoiler for the end of Breaking Bad...if it is, not cool man. If not, disregard.

Whatever you do, don't look at the breaking bad thread, but no, it's not. :bolt:

 

[Millerad1651]

Whatever you do, don't look at the breaking bad thread, but no, it's not. :bolt:

Oh I haven't! We finished season 2 last night...trying really really hard not to hear before we get to the end. Its been everywhere though...this site is about the only one I'm brave enough to look at.
I was at the dentist Monday morning, and they have TVs you can see while they're cleaning your teeth...the Today show started talking about it, and I had to mumble/yell at the hygienist to change the channel! :bolt:

 

[zopperman]

Oh I haven't! We finished season 2 last night...trying really really hard not to hear before we get to the end. Its been everywhere though...this site is about the only one I'm brave enough to look at.
I was at the dentist Monday morning, and they have TVs you can see while they're cleaning your teeth...the Today show started talking about it, and I had to mumble/yell at the hygienist to change the channel! :bolt:

Hahaha yeah man, you have some catching up to do. That's impressive, even one of my professors was talking about it in class, it's hard to avoid...

 

[CookieRoe]

WTF????????

This is going to be a circus apparently:

Gloria Allred: Injured biker was 'innocent victim' in clash with SUV - U.S. News

This attention whore lawyer "thinks" her client is innocent. I knew the poor guy was going to get sued (screwed). Let's hope he is absolved of any wrong doing if ANY charges are filed (Criminal AND Civil).

The system is f**ked up.


[MENTION=55855]zopperman[/MENTION]. As soon as I read your post (#91), I said, "WHAT THE FUCH" out loud, then read your response that no, it wasn't a spoiler. Damn, gotta start watching that...................

 

[02SE]

I think this pretty conclusively shows that these punks aren't the innocent victims that they and their ambulance-chasing lawyers are desperately trying to portray them as.

In fact, they are blatantly lying about what took place. Fortunately, Video doesn't lie.

The Jawa Report: Bikers Versus SUV

 

[KCcarguy]

These guys are scum. I can't believe how screwed-up our justice system is.

 

[RunninInGA]

Two NYPD officers confirmed amongst the gang during the incident. Did nothing to intervene or even report the incident until they both told superiors yesterday apparently. ****ing scum only reported it because they were afraid of being ID'd.

Imagine if either of them were run over.......or had been shot as some of us have discussed being a possibility.

http://nypost.com/2013/10/04/undercover-cop-stood-by-as-bikers-beat-dad/

 

[SV_Dude]

To all those who are saying that you would have tried to drive away and avoid those guys BEFORE defending yourself with deadly force might want to think twice. I am not so sure that would have been a good idea. All you would do is escalate and prolong the inevitable while still endangering yourself, your family and those around you. Either way, you are in a bad position and prolonging it is doing just that... prolonging the inevitable.

Yes, pulling a weapon and firing on those who are trying to do you harm may just be fatal to yourself or your family. Either way you and your family are in danger at the point where a swarm of angry bikers wish to do harm to you or your family.

Now before you slam me for suggesting to stop and stand your ground, imagine this:

We live in a world where thugs, criminals, gangsters, bad guys and all forms of evil doers are afraid to do harm to others because THEY fear for their lives. People will NOT stand for being bullied and people WILL defend themselves, their family and the weak with deadly force. People will not tolerate thievery, wrongful violence, or any form of criminal activity. Criminals fear the general public because everyone will do what they have to do in order to make sure they are safe. We don't have to be scared for the several very valuable minutes that it takes for the police to show up because they don't rely on the police. We stand up for ourselves and show criminals that if they wish to do harm to innocent people that they will be dealt with accordingly.

Now... the above is FAR from the world we live in. In fact, it is the exact opposite. Why? Most people are straight up chicken shit and are afraid to take the hard stand. Why can't we stop the thugs when they first start to do wrong? Why does it always have to turn into running and letting them know that we are afraid of them? They will ALWAYS win!

I wasn't there and I have never been in a situation where my family was in danger along with me. However, I would hope that I would have the guts to not drag out the inevitable and take my stand right away and not try to run away. If everyone took the immediate stand then criminals would think twice before they start shit with people.