daystar still rubs

[jacal]

Help!

After a 800km trip this weekend, I have noticed that my front passenger tire is still rubbing. In fact, it has cut through some rubber and now shows some "white". That cannot be good.

Who is at fault? The lift kit installer? they suggested adding shims to push the wheels further out. Seems like an ok idea, but I have not heard of anyone else needing this solution. I should also point out that they did not use the kits included steering stops, they re-used the toyota oem. Maybe that is the difference causing the problem?

The alignment (done at a dealer) could also be to blame. I specifically asked them to make 100% sure that it would not rub, that was the whole point to me.

There are plenty of pics here:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18705


If anyone can, please advise. I'm wrecking a brand new tire!

Who should solve this problem?


J

 

[Good Times]

You really can't blame anyone for this problem. Anytime you add larger tires (even if it's only 265.70.17) you face the risk of rubbing. Abeit I've yet to hear anyone have the same problem but you must keep in mind that not all tire manufacturer builds their tire the same size. There could be a slight variation in the tire size itself (remember these tires are 3 dimensional) so the sides could be more bulky or even the top could be more square vs round. Whatever the case the tire is the cause of the problem.

You have a few options:
1. change your wheels to a different offset / backspacing wheel.
2. change your tires (but that'll be costly).
3. You can update your upper control arms w/ aftermket ones that'll make sure it clears better ($$ - look into Total Chaos - chaosfab.com)

I would recommend that you swap out your wheels as the first option. Then try the tires and lastly the control arms.

That's about all I can say regarding your unusual issue.

Good luck

 

[jacal]

You have a few options:
1. change your wheels to a different offset / backspacing wheel.
2. change your tires (but that'll be costly).
3. You can update your upper control arms w/ aftermket ones that'll make sure it clears better ($$ - look into Total Chaos - chaosfab.com)


A couple issues:

- why just 1 side? could that tire itself be "funny"? is there any difference Left-Right that I'm ignoring?

- the installer decided not to use all parts of the daystar box...possible issue?

- Option: what about adding 4 small wheel shims? is there enough "bolt" left to properly support the wheels? or could I also move to longer bolts?

- the alignment: what if it was done incorrectly? I really have no way of knowing, other then the fact that it does indeed drive pretty straight. In the past I have had dealers do alignments that were wrong, and needed to be re-done (at Ford).


I really, really appreciate your feedback/suggestions/help.


Thanks,
J

 

[Good Times]

why just 1 side?

no clue. You sure you have the same tire on there? you sure you have the same wheel? you sure you have a lift on that side? too many q's too many uncertainties.

the installer decided not to use all parts of the daystar box...possible issue?

as long as the installer used the spacers that's all he really needs. the bumpstops are optional.

the alignment: what if it was done incorrectly? I really have no way of knowing, other then the fact that it does indeed drive pretty straight. In the past I have had dealers do alignments that were wrong, and needed to be re-done (at Ford).

This is possible. Want to learn more about alignments? Read here:
http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.php?t=81538

Good luck

 

[jacal]

This is possible. Want to learn more about alignments? Read here:
http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.php?t=81538




Sorry, not trying to "bug" you, but one last request:

In your opinion, would there be any risk in going with the wheel shims?


Great link for alignment info. I'm also combing the chaos www site.


J

 

[Good Times]

There are people that have used wheel shims to fix the rubbing issue but I'm not fond of them.

 

[Expat]

My guess is your aligner didn't get the job right. Can you post you alignment settings. You could compare them to mine which I posted for Alex when he was considering tires/wheels.

In my experience, alignment can be off marginally and cause you rubbing problems.

With the size you have chosen, I don't believe you should be having this problem. UNLESS...has the vehicle been involved in an fender benders?

 

[jacal]

My guess is your aligner didn't get the job right. Can you post you alignment settings. You could compare them to mine which I posted for Alex when he was considering tires/wheels.

In my experience, alignment can be off marginally and cause you rubbing problems.


I looked for this document last night, but things have been so crazy in the past 2 months (1st baby) I was unable to find it. Toyota has offered to re-check the alignment, and admitted they have done them incorrectly in the past. I have my original alignment specs (new tires, pre-lift)...but that won't help. Worst case, I will get the new specs once I get down to Toyota and post those. I will also look for the post to Alex. Thanks for the help!


With the size you have chosen, I don't believe you should be having this problem. UNLESS...has the vehicle been involved in an fender benders? [/B][/QUOTE]

Geez, there is a slight chance. In canada, all accidents >$1000 must be registered. That never happend with this truck. Also, there is no Toyota service record of such a repair. Thus, while I cannot be 100% certain, I'm pretty sure it hasn't had any fender benders. One of the risks of buying used.

Strange part is, there is CLEARANCE between that a-arm! I can stick my pinky in there. Hopefully I'm not focusing on the wrong problem.


J

 

[snowjay]

You're looking at that bump on the knuckle as the cause to the rubbing problems on the sidewall?

Doubtful. Unless your tires are under inflated casuing them to roll under when you corner.

More likely it's been my experience that most rubbing will be on the lower control arms/frame area. I think you are looking in the wrong place. If you are rubbing on a suspension piece, or where ever else, you should see a nice bald area of shiney metal.

 

[Kmvreter]

In your opinion, would there be any risk in going with the wheel shims?

DON'T shim a wheel. The hub to wheel mounting joint is critical. There are many dynamics to this interface and shimming could cause loss of lug nut torque or wheel breakage. Don't risk it.

I'm not clear on one thing. Is the rubbing only at full lock on a left or right turn? I'm predicting it is a right turn and you are rubbing a frame rail. Show the alignment guys before they move anything.

 

[cphair]

The 1/4" spacers helped me in my installation. It was $40 well spent. I still had to cut a little out of the wheel wells but there isn't any rubbing on the upper control arm.

 

[jacal]

You're looking at that bump on the knuckle as the cause to the rubbing problems on the sidewall?

Doubtful. Unless your tires are under inflated casuing them to roll under when you corner.

More likely it's been my experience that most rubbing will be on the lower control arms/frame area. I think you are looking in the wrong place. If you are rubbing on a suspension piece, or where ever else, you should see a nice bald area of shiney metal



Tires are running 35psi all around. I hope they are not deforming *that* much under loads/corners! I agree it probably isn't that arm-knuckle because it is slightly higher then the area that is rubbing.

Also, I don't see the shiney metal - ANYWHERE!

Toyota dealer is re-checking/doing the alignment today. Let's see what they come back with. I will post the numbers. If they say the alignment is a-okay, then I will check for rubbing in the next week. Maybe I can put a few pieces of duct tape in strategic locations, drive a short bit and see if/where it rubs off first.

After I feel 100% the alignment is correct, then, as Good Times suggested it could be a wheel. So I would think the best thing for me to do is swap the 2 front wheels. Perhaps the rim is damaged?

If the wheel swap rubs the "new" tire, then we have reduced it to some element within the steering control/frame/etc on that side only. If the "rubbed" tire rubs even more on the new side, then it must be that wheel/tire combo. I need a way to "see" where things are rubbing, maybe some black shoe polish or something oily (armor all?) to 'see' where dirt sticks/gets rubbed off.


J

 

[jacal]

DON'T shim a wheel. The hub to wheel mounting joint is critical. There are many dynamics to this interface and shimming could cause loss of lug nut torque or wheel breakage. Don't risk it.


I agree, this is a last resort. I'd probably try a new set of wheels if I had to (hooray debt-service ratio!) If I had shims I'd probably never be able to stop thinking about them (are they tight, are they getting loose etc)? Safety first.


I'm not clear on one thing. Is the rubbing only at full lock on a left or right turn? I'm predicting it is a right turn and you are rubbing a frame rail. Show the alignment guys before they move


I (regretfully) have not answered this question for myself. Even full-left or right doesn't appear to touch anywhere, not even the frame rail! I can try full-right again, and see what happens specifically at the frame rail.



J

 

[snowjay]

When you say at full left/right, is that with the vehicle on the ground? If so thats not a good test.

You really need to jack up the front end and put it on stands so you can visually see everything well while moving the wheel with your hands and rotating it.

 

[jacal]

When you say at full left/right, is that with the vehicle on the ground? If so thats not a good test.

You really need to jack up the front end and put it on stands so you can visually see everything well while moving the wheel with your hands and rotating it.

Excellent point. I wondered if everything might look a little different because it is "just sitting".

Toyota service claims to have re-checked and everything is within spec, so they will not do/change anything with the alignment. They claim the rubbing problem is because of the lift kit. They also are saying that the tire was rubbing before the alignment, therefore it is not their problem to look into. The problem is when I brought it in originally, I asked if they could resolve the rub, and they said "yes absolutely". I worry they didn't do anything today.



J

 

[snowjay]

Excellent point. I wondered if everything might look a little different because it is "just sitting".

Yeah, it should be looked at with weight off the wheels. Even though you turn the wheel to lock, it kicks back because their is too much resistance on the ground to turn the wheels that far. When you are moving it's possible do to the forward motion of the vehicle.

When the tires are up in the air you should be able to turn them by hand to full lock in both directions.

 

[jacal]

My alignment Specification

I went to toyota at lunch. All they did was test drive the runner. It drives straight so they did no further action. They gave me the old printout of the spec sheet. They claim the alignment is perfectly within spec. They claim if it was out since the last alignment it would pull.

4/26/06
FRONT
Camber
LF: .47
RF: .58

Caster
LF: 2.57
RF: 2.53

Toe
LF: .05
RF: .04
Total Toe front: .08
Steer Ahead: 0
total toe rear: .23
Thrust angle rear: .34

Rear:
Camber:
LR: .26
RR: .35

Toe
LR: .23
RR: .46

Hope these are useful.

The installer of the lift has agreed to look at it again.


Thanks for all the feedback and assistance.
J

 

[jacal]

Comparing the numbers to Expat:

Most noticable (no surprises) is my front Right camber. I'm at .58 which is just inside the margin of .6 whereas Expat is at .1.

Could this camber adjustment/different be the problem?

If it was, what would I even say to the dealer? Yes your alignment is in spec, but I want it more in spec? I guess I'll be out another $80 for a full alignment if "we" think this is the solution.




J

 

[Kmvreter]

I (regretfully) have not answered this question for myself. Even full-left or right doesn't appear to touch anywhere, not even the frame rail! I can try full-right again, and see what happens specifically at the frame rail.



J

Don't you here or feel the rubbing when you are driving?
I have a slight "rubbing" noise with my BFG 275's (in winter) but it turns out it is just contacting a plastic dirt flap (above the frame rail; rear of tire; covers view into engine bay.) Makes a noise at full lock but isn't possible to damage the tire. My point being that you should here or feel when this is happening if there is enough force to damage a tire. There should be witness marks somewhere as a contact point. Is this a fresh mark on the tire? Did the tire shop sell you a blem tire and hide it on the inside? I think you are on the right track to rotate your tires and see if the problem follows.

 

[jacal]

Don't you here or feel the rubbing when you are driving?

Yes. From that area you can hear a hum, which I interpret as the rubbing occuring. At a certain speed I can no longer hear it, I assume other sounds are drowning it out.


I have a slight "rubbing" noise with my BFG 275's (in winter) but it turns out it is just contacting a plastic dirt flap (above the frame

I had this sort of rub on my previous truck. The engine cover "flap" would make contact with the tire. Superficial problem only.


force to damage a tire. There should be witness marks somewhere as a contact point. Is this a fresh mark on the tire?
Did the tire shop sell you a blem tire and hide it on the inside? I think you are on the right track to rotate your tires and see if the

I'm 100% certain the tire was brand new. The markings (damage) is worse. I was told "everything is fine" by both toyota and the installer, so I put it out of mind for a while. Then I re-checked and saw the problem worsening. The tire shop said it is still acceptable for now, but if it continues I'll have too much damage. What I don't see/can't find is the "witness marks" on the contact point.



J