Diesel News

[khaug]

Jeep has announced that they will offer DCX's new 3 liter V6 direct injection turbo diesel in the '07 Grand Cherokee. It will have 215 hp and, more importantly, 376 lb/ft of torque.

Having spent the past two years driving a M-B E320 CDI, I know how unbelieveably good modern diesels can be. And I want one in my next sport ute.

Toyota, the gauntlet has been thrown, and the ball is now in your court. This is arguably one of the best sport-ute engines ever made, and you're going to have to go some to beat it. I'm confident you can do it if you choose to. If you don't choose to, I'm sorry to say you have lost a faithful customer (four Toyotas in the past 15 years). There are other things in life besides your vaunted reliability!

 

[nh00gts]

Already have people searching the lot for the new diesel. I'm looking forward to driving one.

 

[Offroader]

Been there, done that

Toyota already makes sophisticate direct injection turbodiesels, and they offer them all around the world.
Except in the U.S.

They just have to decide to import them.

 

[charlier180]

Re: Been there, done that

Toyota already makes sophisticate direct injection turbodiesels, and they offer them all around the world.
Except in the U.S.

They just have to decide to import them.

Hopefully, once the new emissions rules are in force and the new diesel is readily available across the USA Toyota will choose to bring some of their diesels into the USA.

With the long term trend for fuel prices only going up, diesel engines for the Tundra, Sequoia, Land Cruiser and 4Runner would seem prudent. Without a diesel engine option, sales of these vehicles could very well stagnate or drop.

While hybrid versions of these model may be interesting, I doubt they would be very practical for those that tow or do a lot of highway driving which typically do not benefit much from a hybrid option.

 

[Offroader]

The first thing the U.S. government should do is set more "sincere" diesel prices.

Diesel is 25% cheaper to produce, and it's sold at this price worldwide.

The higher U.S. diesel price was intended to discourage people to use it because of environmental concerns.

But since modern direct injection diesel engines pollute less, this should be changed.

I was amazed to see last month in Europe how more than 70% of new cars sold there are diesel.

From little volkswagens, to sporty BMW's, Mercedes and Audis are all Diesel.

I know I'm spending less than half on fuel for my TurboDiesel 4Runner than my friends who drive the Gasoline 4.0 V6 version.

 

[Dennis]

The US government doesn't set prices for fuel, although its policies certainly influence the price. But prices (of anything) are never determined by the cost of production.

The policies of individual states have powerful influence on the availability of diesel engines. When you can't sell a diesel model in some of the country's biggest markets, it really cuts the incentive to produce a diesel at all.

 

[Offroader]

The US government doesn't set prices for fuel, although its policies certainly influence the price. But prices (of anything) are never determined by the cost of production.

The policies of individual states have powerful influence on the availability of diesel engines. When you can't sell a diesel model in some of the country's biggest markets, it really cuts the incentive to produce a diesel at all.

Do your research. It's just one word: Taxes.

Or hundreds of countries around the world must be wrong.

Selling diesel at the same price as gasoline is as ridiculous as selling hamburger patty at the same price as a premium rib eye steak.

Gasoline is more refined: It's more expensive to produce. Period. Anything else is tax.

 

[Jeff Kleb]

Diesels


As stated above, the US Government does not "set" the market price of diesel fuel; although you are correct about them setting the rate of tax on it.

Diesel does cost less to refine than unleaded gasoline, and it is kind of dumb that we tax it at a rate much higher. In Germany, diesel is taxed at a rate much lower than gasoline - thus it costs much less per liter and a diesel engine goes farther on a tank full than does a gas job. Imagine unleaded being $3.50 a gallon and diesel costing $2.50, but also getting 30% better fuel economy per gallon - and you'd understand why diesels are so popular over there.

Perhaps our federal government people have concerns about the increased particulate emissions attributed to oil-burners. While much of this perception is based upon ancient myths and is less true today than just a few years ago, it is hard to get a big ship to change course so quickly. When asked to think of diesel-powered vehicles, most people recall an old Mercedes sedan belching black smoke and having its entire rear end coverd with soot; or they visualize a huge, overloaded semi spewing filth into the clear blue sky as it climbs a mountain.
:bash:

Diesel cars and trucks are now so, so, so much cleaner than ones built just a decade ago. With the new ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel) now being used in many states and the upcoming super-clean 2007 diesel engines, emissions are not nearly the problem they once were. With manifold heaters and better glow plugs {which some engines no longer need}, cold starting is not the arduous task that it once was. A friend of mine once had a 1970s VW Rabbit diesel and firing that thing up on a cold Pennsylvania winter morning was a real crap shoot!

The 6.0L PowerStroke diesel from Navistar (used in Ford's F-Series 'Super Duty' trucks), the modern generation of the Cummins 5.9L (used by Freightliner & Dodge) and GM's Duramax (made for Chevy/GMC by Isuzu) are examples of how far technology has improved power, reliability, performance and longevity of modern diesel engines.

We have an all-diesel heavy-duty fleet of trucks where I work and it is amazing how clean and non-smelly the newer International/Navistar trucks run (DT-466 engines). Even on cold days, they fire right up with no delays. Oh, and the DT-466 and 530 engines don't have any glow plugs at all.
:awais:

With cars, Mercedes has re-introduced a diesel for the US market after several years of not offering one. Volkswagen has an outstanding TDI diesel sold as an option on the Jetta and New Beetle. Rest assured that other automakers are ponying up their own oil-burners. Jeep is slated to sell a six-cylinder diesel for the 2007 Grand Cherokee and supposedly will allow buyers of the smaller Jeep Liberty to get diesel power as well.

Toyota and Nissan sell diesels in other markets (Asia, Latin America, Europe, etc.), so I suspect US offerings will soon be coming if they can meet the reduced emissions standards enacted for 2007. It may be a year or two away, but I believe the market will support it and there are plenty of people who want a larger diesel SUV that will get similar fuel economy to a smaller gas-powered one.


"Real trucks don't have sparkplugs!" (a bumper sticker seen recently on a Dodge Ram with a Cummins diesel engine)


http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/superduty/
2007 Ford Super Duty -- A real "Beast of Burden" for today's hauling

 

[pipspeak]

IMO, three things have to happen before diesel engines make a bigger splash in the US.

Firstly the car makers have to start upselling diesel on a few consumer models. Once the media gets hold of the "diesel is great value and no more environmentally harmful overall than gasoline" story, people will sit up and take notice. Exactly that happened with those silly hybrids.

Secondly, oil companies need to start making better grades of diesel. I believe much of the diesel sold in the US is the old high sulphur, high particuate variety, which gets the reputation as a dirty fuel for a reason (I could be wrong... anyone know?). Most diesel sold in Europe is now low particulate and low sulphur, which is altogether a better fuel.

And finally, taxes need to be equal on diesel and regular gasoline, which would make them almost equal in price when taking into account the additional processing needed to produce "cleaner" diesel. It's not true that diesel is cheaper everywhere else but here. In the UK, for example, diesel is a tad more expensive per liter, but of course you average 40+ mpg even in a zippy turbo diesel so it works out cheaper in the end.

FYI, my father used to have a Jeep Cherokee diesel in the UK (a 2001 I believe). It was a dog, performance-wise, and sounded more like a tractor than most other diesels. I hope Jeep has a better engine for the US market.

In fact I remain to be convinced that six-pot turbo diesels can hack it for SUVs in a country used to huge V6 and V8 gasoline engines. A friend of mine who has owned and abused many SUVs in Europe hates the diesels and swears by either gasoline V8s or LPG-converted V8s.

 

[Offroader]

In the UK, for example, diesel is a tad more expensive per liter, but of course you average 40+ mpg even in a zippy turbo diesel so it works out cheaper in the end.

Wrong. Diesel is cheaper than petrol (gasoline) in the UK.

Check Fuel prices across europe in this page:

http://www.see-search.com/business/fuelandpetrolpriceseurope.htm

 

[Offroader]

In fact I remain to be convinced that six-pot turbo diesels can hack it for SUVs in a country used to huge V6 and V8 gasoline engines. A friend of mine who has owned and abused many SUVs in Europe hates the diesels and swears by either gasoline V8s or LPG-converted V8s.

Correct. Modern turbodiesels do the job perfectly to transport you at any speed, even well above U.S. speed limits (100mph+), while consuming less fuel, which is good for your pocket.

But there's always the customer who wants to own a rocket, no matter how big the hole in his pocket.

But the dissapearance of the Hummer H1 from the civilian market, and the sudden interest in hybrids tells me that U.S. customer needs are changing, and modern turbodiesel engines could supply that demand for more miles per gallon.

 

[Roams001]

We have a Jetta TDI and absolutely love it. We run B20 in it right now and it purrs like a kitten compared to straight D2. If we had a source closer to us, we'd run B100. Fuel economy, Biodiesel, Torque plus I love the sound and smell of the modern diesel engine. Hell, it smells better than my 4Runner.

http://biodiesel.org/


:bigok:

 

[sbbamafan]

The taxes are what is killing the passenger diesel in the US. I have a Ford diesel and my T4R. Today, for example in Atlanta, Unleaded regular is +/-2.37. diesel is +/-2.83. This is rediculous. As one of the earlier posts said, diesel is 25% less expensive to produce. I'm not certain of the number but I do know it is a substantial percentage and this seems consistant with other numbers Ive heard over the years. That being said, diesel should cost +/-1.78 today, not 2.83.

There simply isn't going to be a viable diesel passenger market as long as legislation and taxes pander to the oil companies that want to sell gas. Jeep has already cancelled production of the Liberty diesel. Until fuel prices stabilize people will not buy the Cherokee, no matter how good it might be. I predict the Cherokee diesel to be short-lived too.

As for what one of the earlier posts said, I think all the diesel available in the US is now the low-sulpher variety. Furthermore, diesels are more flexible than gas engines and run easily on WVO, or other blends of diesel, etc. Most people don;t realize it but when the diesel was invented it was made to run on straight peanut oil. They are a great engine and with modern technology they are even better.

Enough of my soap box...but it is just another thing that govenment has f'd up.

 

[pipspeak]

Wrong. Diesel is cheaper than petrol (gasoline) in the UK.

I was speaking from first hand experience... I've been to the UK three times so far this year and each time diesel was a couple of pence more expensive than petrol in the southeast and London. Can't vouch for the rest fo the country.

I guess diesel and petrol prices move up and down at different rates.

 

[pipspeak]

Furthermore, diesels are more flexible than gas engines and run easily on WVO, or other blends of diesel, etc. Most people don;t realize it but when the diesel was invented it was made to run on straight peanut oil. They are a great engine and with modern technology they are even better.

Reminds me of my friend's golf diesel... they sometimes fill it up with vegetable-oil based fuel, earning it the nickname "the chippy" (you might have to know Brithsh slang to understand that one!)

 

[Offroader]

There simply isn't going to be a viable diesel passenger market as long as legislation and taxes pander to the oil companies that want to sell gas.

I think you found the culprit. In most countries, diesel has less tax because people who use it are wasting less oil to produce fuel.

In the U.S., it's the exact contrary.

 

[halw]

diesel news

In Colorado the state tax for gas and/or diesel is 22 cents a gal. The last time I checked the US tax was 18.5 cents/gal. Or a total of 40.5 cents/gal. Not a huge part of the 3 dollars a gal price. I don't think it is taxes that make diesel more than gasoline. It could be that it takes more crude oil to make a gal of diesel than a gal of gasoline.

 

[the_bear]

The taxes are what is killing the passenger diesel in the US. I have a Ford diesel and my T4R. Today, for example in Atlanta, Unleaded regular is +/-2.37. diesel is +/-2.83. This is rediculous. As one of the earlier posts said, diesel is 25% less expensive to produce. I'm not certain of the number but I do know it is a substantial percentage and this seems consistant with other numbers Ive heard over the years. That being said, diesel should cost +/-1.78 today, not 2.83.

There simply isn't going to be a viable diesel passenger market as long as legislation and taxes pander to the oil companies that want to sell gas. Jeep has already cancelled production of the Liberty diesel. Until fuel prices stabilize people will not buy the Cherokee, no matter how good it might be. I predict the Cherokee diesel to be short-lived too.

As for what one of the earlier posts said, I think all the diesel available in the US is now the low-sulpher variety. Furthermore, diesels are more flexible than gas engines and run easily on WVO, or other blends of diesel, etc. Most people don;t realize it but when the diesel was invented it was made to run on straight peanut oil. They are a great engine and with modern technology they are even better.

Enough of my soap box...but it is just another thing that govenment has f'd up.

The federal excise tax on diesel is 6 cents per gallon higher than gasoline, and one cent of that difference is mandated for a leaking ground storage tank trust fund. Georgia state taxes one diesel and gasoline are identical.

Taxes do not add up to the 46 cent difference you posted.

-Eric

 

[the_bear]

I think you found the culprit. In most countries, diesel has less tax because people who use it are wasting less oil to produce fuel.

In the U.S., it's the exact contrary.

The taxation differences between gasoline and diesel at a federal level are only 6 cents per gallon, that is a drop in the bucket compared to $3 per gallon price. Most of the states the taxes are the same or very close, the only state I found that had grossly higher diesel taxes was Florida with about 13 cents more tax on diesel. Some states have lower taxes on diesel.

Here is an article that sheds some light on this discussion.
Article

State Fuel Taxes

BTW, the diesel price list for Europe you posted is over a year old. The following page is from July this year and shows the UK as having a higher price for diesel than gasoline as pipspeak stated from personal experience.

Europe Diesel prices from July 2006


-Eric

 

[Hank]

Last month's issue of C&D had an article on the BMW 330D (diesel) and according to the article, certain states including CA will have a new stricter clean air emission regulation that will pretty much prohibit sales of diesel cars (not trucks) in that state. The only one that will pass the new standard (to my knowledge) is the MB diesel E-Class which has a new CAT system which makes it cleaner burning. Therefore, it's the only diesel car available for '07 in CA, unless I'm mistaken.