E15 and 3rd gens

[Pyral]

Biden admin says it's going to allow E15 to be sold all summer. Currently I'm forced to buy gasoline with a 10% dilution of ethanol (E10), and the owners manual say that is the max amount of ethanol. Unfortunately, E15 is coming whether we like it or not.

I've seen a lot of places claiming that all vehicle made from 01 onwards are safe to use with E15. That should include the very tail end of 3rd gen 4runners.

Did Toyota have to change anything with the fuel system in those model years to achieve E15 compatibility?

I'm worried that my early 3rd gen will start having issues when I start being forced to use E15. Mines a 4 cylinder, so it was discontinued by 2001 (hope its not too different)

 

[spartacus]

E-15 is more corrosive to rubber and attracts moisture. I would avoid it.

 

[Brian.]

E-15 is more corrosive to rubber and attracts moisture. I would avoid it.

Nearly no one will be able to avoid it.... it will be at EVERY pump that isn't specifically "ethanol free".

But I agree, it's something I'd love to avoid. Like feeling hungry and adding a handful of sand to your food to "feel full". My 2 carbed vehicles are already trouble with the current formulations, soooo not looking forward to what's coming.


Funny, this feels like a planned situation given the Keystone pipeline he canceled on day 1.

 

[brillo_76]

I saw when the ethonal first came out. Toyota said the maximum is 10% In the older vehicles. So I expect a lot of people to have major issues with older vehicles if they run 15%

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[jgue467]

Time for Stabil or Star Tron, which is my cost-effective choice, about .20cents a tankful from the quart size. I give each vehicle a little splash every tankful or so...

 

[ch1966]

100% gas all things.
Unless you like chasing ethanol related problems.
Those cost time and money.

 

[delstele]

Rec gas has no ethanol but it is about $.40 - .50 cents higher than ethanol blends so that's an option. I run it in my 72 c10 truck.

 

[turbodudey2]

The difference between E10 and E15 is negligible. Any 3rd gen, even pre-2001 should run E15 with no issue. Ethanol isn't any more corrosive to fuel systems than gasoline. The only caveat is if it's mixed with water. So just don't put water in your fuel tank and you'll be good. There are old arguments that say it will readily absorb moisture from the air, but this is very silly since the fuel systems are sealed.

Ethanol is a good solvent, so if anything it may clean the fuel injectors which will improve performance.

The energy density of ethanol is lower than gasoline, so you may notice a decrease in fuel economy. This is normal. Depending on the price of gas, it may be a wash in terms of actual $$ per mile for fuel consumed.

I've been running E85 for a while (supercharged, larger injectors, etc) and it is considerably cheaper than gasoline even after accounting for the decrease in fuel economy. The price of ethanol has remained relatively stable while the price of gasoline has gone up significantly.

The other bonus of ethanol is the high octane rating (average 105 octane), which is especially nice for supercharged applications.

 

[jgue467]

...There are old arguments that say it will readily absorb moisture from the air, but this is very silly since the fuel systems are sealed.
...

How about the air in the tank as is splashes around while driving?

You make otherwise solid points about alcohol. I hate that it deteriorates rubber hoses, which by and large do not exist on runners. But they sure do exist on most small engines, atvs, ect. So I just treat every fuel tank I have, since many of my engines don't see daily duty, uggg.

 

[ArthurKotb]

Doing a little research this morning I find that cars made since 2001 will be okay with E15 gas. Small engines like lawnmowers, chainsaws, generators and marine engines should not use E15. BUT, only 1.5% of gas stations in the US have the necessary equipment to store E15 fuel, so E10 should still be readily available. It's estimated that for a 10 pump station it would cost $300,000 to convert to E15, a fuel that cannot be sold in summer because it causes smog. Its sale in some states is banned June to Sept 15.

Biden’s approval of E15 gas will only affect 1.5% of gas stations — Quartz
President Joe Biden and E15: What to know about the renewable fuel

 

[turbodudey2]

How about the air in the tank as is splashes around while driving?

Assuming a typical condition of 50% relative humidity at 70°F, the amount of water vapor in the air is very small.

If the fuel tank was only half full, that would leave about 1 cubic foot of air space containing 0.006312 oz of water vapor. Pretty much insignificant.

There is something to be said for the old rule of thumb to store a vehicle with the fuel tank full. Just to reduce the air volume allowed in the tank. But again these numbers are so small, it's not something anyone needs to worry about.

 

[jross20]

More government nonsense that we don't need. Woo

 

[heat]

Doing a little research this morning I find that cars made since 2001 will be okay with E15 gas. Small engines like lawnmowers, chainsaws, generators and marine engines should not use E15. BUT, only 1.5% of gas stations in the US have the necessary equipment to store E15 fuel, so E10 should still be readily available. It's estimated that for a 10 pump station it would cost $300,000 to convert to E15, a fuel that cannot be sold in summer because it causes smog. Its sale in some states is banned June to Sept 15.

Biden’s approval of E15 gas will only affect 1.5% of gas stations — Quartz
President Joe Biden and E15: What to know about the renewable fuel

The EPA ban and supporting court case is an interesting twist. I was getting a
little crazy about this. My owner's manual says nothing over E10, and the local
dealer service department had no information at all.

 

[brillo_76]

Time will tell. I expect issues with it. So additives will help. Being pre 2001 engines where never designed to run ethonal. Lots of testing seems to be done if folks dig around.

Isn't adding more ethonal to the gas going to curb mpg?

As adding 10% dropped the mpg some. Wouldn't adding more drop it slightly more?



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[spartacus]

The fuel systems in these trucks are getting long in the tooth. Ethanol is known to degrade rubber, nylon in fuel pumps and lines and effects aluminum. Fuel pumps and injectors etc will surely be effected.

 

[Pyral]

Using ethanol as fuel is a stupid and flawed idea. 1. Biofuel requires large amounts of fresh water (since it's made from corn)2. it raises food prices 3. it takes more energy to create then we get out of it, and 4. an acre of corn will generate less energy than an acre of solar panels. These are facts.

It's nothing that p*liticians make it out to be. In fact it's the opposite. But that is as far as I want to wade into that aspect. People who say its a better alternative are straight up wrong.

I assume the 5% drop in energy density compared to E10 will also have a drop in MPG. It's filler, empty calories that just take up volume. So the $0.1 drop in price over E10 will immediately be offset by the decreased potency.

E15 might not replace e10 in months, or maybe years, but lobbying and pandering will eventually insure that E15 becomes the norm like E10 did a decade ago. So if any of keep our 4runners, E15 might become unavoidable.

I imagine vehicles with carbs will gum up even more, I remember reading about how E10 caused problems for them as well. Are there suitable replacement parts for 3rd gens that can withstand E15?

 

[turbodudey2]

Using ethanol as fuel is a stupid and flawed idea...

Are there suitable replacement parts for 3rd gens that can withstand E15?

I agree from an both an energy and environmental standpoint it's not helping anything to produce ethanol for the transportation sector.

While the reasoning for producing this stuff may be flawed, as long as it's available and cheap I'm certainly going to take advantage of it.

The lower concentrations E10, E15, etc may not be as beneficial for most people, but E85 has been great. (if you can take advantage of the high octane rating) It's like getting race gas for cheaper than regular gasoline.

The idea that ethanol is corrosive is not really true. It won't do any harm to your 4runner, and there certainly aren't any parts that would need to be replaced. It might help clean the fuel injectors, which is a plus, but other than that there's not much you need to worry about.

 

[phattyduck]

If it was designed for E10, the fuel system can handle ethanol. That part isn't much of a worry.

The increase in ethanol content does increase fuel usage - which affects fuel trims. It also affects emissions. For those of us that still need emissions testing, this may also get interesting. I believe it would be for those two reasons that Toyota doesn't want more than E10 in the fuel.

-Charlie

 

[Brian.]

I imagine vehicles with carbs will gum up even more, I remember reading about how E10 caused problems for them as well.

I have 2 vehicles with carbs, and the biggest issue is vapor lock. Both have mechanical fuel pumps that sit on the engine block, which is enough heat in the summer to make for a miserable experience. Stumbling, stalling and refusing to hot restart are the main issues. We drive those 2 vehicles more frequently than the 4runner, so vanishing isn't much issue.... but anything over a month and I'd be draining the float bowls on anything not specifically to operate on alcohol.



Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

For those that don't know and want fuel that isn't drunk.

 

[brillo_76]

Doing a little research this morning I find that cars made since 2001 will be okay with E15 gas. Small engines like lawnmowers, chainsaws, generators and marine engines should not use E15. BUT, only 1.5% of gas stations in the US have the necessary equipment to store E15 fuel, so E10 should still be readily available. It's estimated that for a 10 pump station it would cost $300,000 to convert to E15, a fuel that cannot be sold in summer because it causes smog. Its sale in some states is banned June to Sept 15.

Biden’s approval of E15 gas will only affect 1.5% of gas stations — Quartz
President Joe Biden and E15: What to know about the renewable fuel

Maybe that will save us..