E15 and 3rd gens

[JoeT4R]

You will always lose MPGs with ethanol compared to 'normal' gasoline, though not necessarily power (if you can tune for it). That part we are all on the same page with.



The question comes if the cost of higher ethanol gas is low enough to make up for the lower fuel economy.



Theoretical example:

E0 = 20mpg and $4.50/gallon ($0.225 / mile)

E10 = 19mpg and $4.00/gallon ($0.211 / mile)

E15 = 18mpg and $3.50/gallon ($0.194 / mile)



Clearly, even with the the lower MPG, total cost per mile can be better. This is why E85 (sometimes) makes sense for the end user. That, and it makes great race fuel for cheap!



-Charlie



PS. I am purposefully ignoring any discussions of whether or not ethanol actually should be in fuel from an environmental perspective...

Totally agreed with the above. I'm glad you typed this out from a numbers perspective, so thank you for that! That makes a lot of sense and gives me confidence in my choice to try the E15 stuff. I'm hoping that it'll save me money in the long run, which of course is one of my objectives with my experiment in using it.

And from an environmental standpoint I think we can all agree that cleaner fuel is of course better for the environment-- but that's not my reason for using it. I'm trying to spend the least amount of money possible and still maintain a healthy engine/performance. So if I can achieve both then of course that's good. But by no means would I ever say that people should be required to use it BECAUSE it's better for the environment. If I had non ethanol gas close to me I would make every attempt to use it exclusively no matter the cost.

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[gamefreakgc]

Totally agreed with the above. I'm glad you typed this out from a numbers perspective, so thank you for that! That makes a lot of sense and gives me confidence in my choice to try the E15 stuff. I'm hoping that it'll save me money in the long run, which of course is one of my objectives with my experiment in using it.

And from an environmental standpoint I think we can all agree that cleaner fuel is of course better for the environment-- but that's not my reason for using it. I'm trying to spend the least amount of money possible and still maintain a healthy engine/performance. So if I can achieve both then of course that's good. But by no means would I ever say that people should be required to use it BECAUSE it's better for the environment. If I had non ethanol gas close to me I would make every attempt to use it exclusively no matter the cost.

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I agree... my 4Runner runs so much better on straight gasoline...

 

[19963.4lsr5]

My drive to work is 25miles and I pass 17 gas stations. Regular ranges from 3.62 to 3.87 a gallon and only two stations are selling E15 at 3.67 to 3.72.

If there was more of a savings I’d try the E15. My block and heads were decked for the rebuild and I’m running a little higher compression than stock. E15 is 88 octane. Before the sharp rise in prices I ran 89 usually and noticed a 1-2mpg improvement.


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[JoeT4R]

I agree... my 4Runner runs so much better on straight gasoline...

As does mine. I had the opportunity to use non ethanol gasoline a handful of times and every time I noticed about a 1-2 mpg increase. Last time I had the opportunity to use it was back in August and I believe I paid about $4.69/gallon. Definitely expensive but I think it was worth it.

I'm only attracted to this E15 because of the price. So far I'm not noticing any differences in performance, but I've only been running it since last Friday or Saturday? I think? So not even a whole week/whole tank yet. Once I run through a couple tank fulls I will be able to better assess overall mileage and performance differences if there are any.

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[Bad Luck]

As does mine. I had the opportunity to use non ethanol gasoline a handful of times and every time I noticed about a 1-2 mpg increase. Last time I had the opportunity to use it was back in August and I believe I paid about $4.69/gallon. Definitely expensive but I think it was worth it.

I'm only attracted to this E15 because of the price. So far I'm not noticing any differences in performance, but I've only been running it since last Friday or Saturday? I think? So not even a whole week/whole tank yet. Once I run through a couple tank fulls I will be able to better assess overall mileage and performance differences if there are any.

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Keep in mind cooler weather helps with fuel economy to a degree, but when gas stations start switching to winter blend fuel then fuel economy will drop.

 

[brillo_76]

Keep in mind cooler weather helps with fuel economy to a degree, but when gas stations start switching to winter blend fuel then fuel economy will drop.

I thought winter blend started in September?

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[gamefreakgc]

I thought winter blend started in September?

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Depends on your location. Here in CA they sometimes delay the summer blend to help with prices and other times start using it early. There's no official announcement on when that is but you'll notice it if you track MPG once they do.

 

[Bad Luck]

I thought winter blend started in September?

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I don't believe there's a set date across the board for when to start using winter blend but I never looked into it

 

[brillo_76]

Interesting. Around here western PA it's always September...,

Edit: Seasonal Gas Prices Explained | NACS

I have see it show up here in mid September. This article says it can start as early as Sept 15
Makes a lot of sense that it would vary around the country.
Like others stated, you see a few mpg drop when it hits l a lot of the time.. :-(


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[19963.4lsr5]

If it’s the same as diesel, winter blend starts November 15th in my area……


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[JoeT4R]

Keep in mind cooler weather helps with fuel economy to a degree, but when gas stations start switching to winter blend fuel then fuel economy will drop.

Ahhh, that would explain a lot then! I didn't think it was so much the blend as it was the weather itself. But that does make sense. I tend to yield ever so slightly better mpg's during the warmer months.

So far I haven't experienced anything crazy so my experiment will continue for the time being.

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[Zhehan]

As an update, seen below is a snapshot of the current tuning map I have setup for E10 fuel. I will keep tweaking as I go, but this is pretty close to where I will end up more than likely. Based on "gamefreakgc's" Supercharger thread, I was inspired to reinstall my Airaid MIT and tweak the tuning for both that and the E10 fuel. I have a long road-trip on the weekend of the 21st of October, so I will wait until then to post any actual MPG numbers. Currently driving a lot of short trips, and with the new tune and the return to the Airaid + Deckplate intake setup, I'm driving like an @sshole. ;-) The truck is ballsy. Love it!

One thing I can tell you all that based on the live data from my scan tool, the Long Term Fuel trim is up by 6% from 13% to 19% after adding the Airaid MIT + Deckplate Open. It was @ 13% with just the Deckplate open and the stock intake tube. Additionally, as before when I was running this setup, when I'm cruising on the highway, the exhaust note is almost silent. It's a lot quieter out back with an open, unrestricted and "noisy" intake. The intake noise is only noticeable under hard acceleration. It does add some throaty-ness around town as well. It's a good setup.

Below is the Tuning Map. I'm running the Developer Software which is why it says "Unknown Company".

 

[JBurt]

Have you been consistently running it for a while? How's your mileage? And all other factors associated with it like tire size/type, lift/stock suspension, daily driving conditions etc.

So far I'm not noticing a huge decrease in performance, and it could totally be placebo, but I feel like my rig is a bit less responsive than usual.

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I haven't noticed any difference, however I'm not as detail oriented as others in this thread. There's some really good info here and people with lots of knowledge.

 

[JoeT4R]

I haven't noticed any difference, however I'm not as detail oriented as others in this thread. There's some really good info here and people with lots of knowledge.

Gotcha. I too haven't been as detail oriented with this experiment however it will come to a halt next week. I've gotta go out of town and where I'm going won't have E15. So when I get back I plan to start over and log beginning mileage and track numbers much more closely.

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[gamefreakgc]

As an update, seen below is a snapshot of the current tuning map I have setup for E10 fuel. I will keep tweaking as I go, but this is pretty close to where I will end up more than likely. Based on "gamefreakgc's" Supercharger thread, I was inspired to reinstall my Airaid MIT and tweak the tuning for both that and the E10 fuel. I have a long road-trip on the weekend of the 21st of October, so I will wait until then to post any actual MPG numbers. Currently driving a lot of short trips, and with the new tune and the return to the Airaid + Deckplate intake setup, I'm driving like an @sshole. ;-) The truck is ballsy. Love it!

One thing I can tell you all that based on the live data from my scan tool, the Long Term Fuel trim is up by 6% from 13% to 19% after adding the Airaid MIT + Deckplate Open. It was @ 13% with just the Deckplate open and the stock intake tube. Additionally, as before when I was running this setup, when I'm cruising on the highway, the exhaust note is almost silent. It's a lot quieter out back with an open, unrestricted and "noisy" intake. The intake noise is only noticeable under hard acceleration. It does add some throaty-ness around town as well. It's a good setup.

Below is the Tuning Map. I'm running the Developer Software which is why it says "Unknown Company".

This is awesome and interested in seeing how the timing advance plays out. I'm also glad you noticed the fuel trims in relation to the intake. It's a very precise way to see if any intake or exhaust upgrades are actually working. If it's flowing more fuel, that means the engine is getting more air and if you're getting more air, you're getting more power!

 

[Zhehan]

This is awesome and interested in seeing how the timing advance plays out. I'm also glad you noticed the fuel trims in relation to the intake. It's a very precise way to see if any intake or exhaust upgrades are actually working. If it's flowing more fuel, that means the engine is getting more air and if you're getting more air, you're getting more power!

Thanks!

If you have the tools, and can use them and observe them and understand them, it's easy to get a lot more performance for less cash outlay. I know the 5VZ-FE responds very well to intake + exhaust mods. Add in a piggyback, a scan tool, some time to dial stuff in and it makes a really big difference.

I'll keep you posted.

 

[Zhehan]

Just to circle back on this: I don't really have much usable data for this. I had a longer trip at the end of November, but my battery died right before the trip, so the ECU was in learn mode for half the trip or so. Also, I don't ever get on the highway unless it's for a road tip. This isn't a daily driver, and when I do drive it to work, it's about a 3 mile trip. Errands around town are similar in distance. At any rate, on the way home from Central Oregon, we hit snow and drove in 4WD for about 30 miles. I got 171 miles out of a half tank of gas by the time we got home. I averaged 16.8 mpg on that tank as I finished it with short drives around town. I'm pretty confident that 300+ miles per tank is doable with long distance driving. That's by the time the light comes on. Tank fills are around 15.5 gallons when the light comes on. It's not on "E" when the light turns on, but slightly above it. I'm certain the sender unit is accurate.

As I drive this thing more on longer trips, I'll update this. We are going to the coast on NYE.

 

[JoeT4R]

Thread revival, I know. Tisk-tisk.

8 months ago the conversation about this ended. But I'm curious, has anyone else been using E15 in their 3rd gen? I haven't since I last documented it in my build thread, which I think was sometime late last year. I remember my mileage was decreasing pretty bad so I decided to stop using it as the cost wasn't outweighing the decrease in mileage.

Curious to hear people's experiences and thoughts on this now.

 

[Pyral]

Thread revival, I know. Tisk-tisk.

8 months ago the conversation about this ended. But I'm curious, has anyone else been using E15 in their 3rd gen? I haven't since I last documented it in my build thread, which I think was sometime late last year. I remember my mileage was decreasing pretty bad so I decided to stop using it as the cost wasn't outweighing the decrease in mileage.

Curious to hear people's experiences and thoughts on this now.

Nope. But the cost difference will never outweigh the decrease in milage.

Don't be tempted by the lower initial price of E15. As soon as people lose reference for what a lower ethanol concentration costs, they'll erase the cost savings and pocket the difference.

Ethanol as fuel is a corn lobbied scam built on flawed assumptions that growing corn to burn is sustainable (it's not even close).

I got to try E-free while driving across the country, and it benefit me 4 MPG. So it appears to me that for every 5% of ethanol, I lose 2 MPG.

 

[brillo_76]

Nope. But the cost difference will never outweigh the decrease in milage.



Don't be tempted by the lower initial price of E15. As soon as people lose reference for what a lower ethanol concentration costs, they'll erase the cost savings and pocket the difference.



Ethanol as fuel is a corn lobbied scam built on flawed assumptions that growing corn to burn is sustainable (it's not even close).



I got to try E-free while driving across the country, and it benefit me 4 MPG. So it appears to me that for every 5% of ethanol, I lose 2 MPG.

You guys figured it out.. Good job. Will the rigs run e10 and e15 yes. Will you loose mpg .....the answer is above. It's a scam to help drive down fuel costs. Pure gasoline is the best for small engines too.

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