E15 and 3rd gens

[gamefreakgc]

Time will tell. I expect issues with it. So additives will help. Being pre 2001 engines where never designed to run ethonal. Lots of testing seems to be done if folks dig around.

Isn't adding more ethonal to the gas going to curb mpg?

As adding 10% dropped the mpg some. Wouldn't adding more drop it slightly more?

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Yes, as it takes more cc's of ethanol to power the same engine with gasoline. Something about less energy per liter or something like that, someone smarter than me could explain. That means if you are measuring in gallons, E15 will have less 'miles' in it than E10 because it has less energy potential. Hence why E85 is cheaper than traditional gasoline.

 

[gamefreakgc]

Using ethanol as fuel is a stupid and flawed idea. 1. Biofuel requires large amounts of fresh water (since it's made from corn)2. it raises food prices 3. it takes more energy to create then we get out of it, and 4. an acre of corn will generate less energy than an acre of solar panels. These are facts.

It's nothing that p*liticians make it out to be. In fact it's the opposite. But that is as far as I want to wade into that aspect. People who say its a better alternative are straight up wrong.

I assume the 5% drop in energy density compared to E10 will also have a drop in MPG. It's filler, empty calories that just take up volume. So the $0.1 drop in price over E10 will immediately be offset by the decreased potency.

E15 might not replace e10 in months, or maybe years, but lobbying and pandering will eventually insure that E15 becomes the norm like E10 did a decade ago. So if any of keep our 4runners, E15 might become unavoidable.

I imagine vehicles with carbs will gum up even more, I remember reading about how E10 caused problems for them as well. Are there suitable replacement parts for 3rd gens that can withstand E15?

I think for more modern vehicles that can run on E85 or traditional gasoline, they make the same miles per gallon? Something about able to advance timing to take advantage of the high octane fuel making more power per stroke and increase MPG's. Obviously our antiquating 4Runners don't have anything like that.

I have heard of complete E85 swaps like someone else is doing that did not replace the fuel pump and the fuel lines. There's very few rubber parts along that path so it wouldn't be terribly hard to convert them either to stainless steel or some other flexible line. Those would be the only two components that would not be able to handle the increased fuel needs of having to compensate for E15.

The ECU will read it like this: because E15 has less energy density it'll start to run a little lean. The oxygen sensor (or 2001 later vehicles, Air Fuel Ratio sensor) will immediately increase fuel trims to compensate. I don't see a scenario where it would ever increase the long term fuel trims over 30% and trip a code, I don't think even E85 would do that. Over time, the ethanol could start to cause the rubber to deteriorate to the point of causing fuel delivery options. The pump should continue to operate as it's always on at the same rate, it doesn't scale with throttle. I do not think that fuel pressure will drop as the 4Runner doesn't max out the pump if naturally aspirated.

Overall, I believe based on my work on the 5VZ platform we should be fine other than the obvious MPG drop as it's less energy dense fuel. California has been E10 only for about 5-6 years now and I have not had any problems except for watching my MPG drop. Below is a chart of the drop, you can see the baseline go down in 2017. It'll be less severe with a 5% add instead of 10% add but you get the idea.

 

[turbodudey2]

E15, a fuel that cannot be sold in summer because it causes smog. Its sale in some states is banned June to Sept 15.

Not sure where you found this info, but this is backwards.

Higher ethanol content is specifically sold in the summer to help reduce smog. From June - September is when E15 would be sold. The extra oxygen in ethanol is what is suppose to help reduce smog. Testing doesn’t seem to show a significant improvement, but that’s the general idea.

 

[turbodudey2]

I don't see a scenario where it would ever increase the long term fuel trims over 30% and trip a code, I don't think even E85 would do that.

Correct. E15 would bump up the LTFT a few percent, but not nearly enough for the computer to have any problem adjusting.

Since running E85 my long term fuel trim has been sitting at around +13%, that’s in addition to 30% larger fuel injectors. On stock injectors it probably would push the trim too high.

 

[brillo_76]

Yes, as it takes more cc's of ethanol to power the same engine with gasoline. Something about less energy per liter or something like that, someone smarter than me could explain. That means if you are measuring in gallons, E15 will have less 'miles' in it than E10 because it has less energy potential. Hence why E85 is cheaper than traditional gasoline.

So if we are losing mpg at 10%. Then increasing another 5% we will lose more. How is this helping anything. As making ethonal takes more energy then it produces.

How much pollution is created by producing ethonal?

Is it wise to use corn and food to create it.

I would think this isn't going to help anything. The slight emmision loss isn't taking into account the emissions used to create ethonal.






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[Devbot]

Not sure where you found this info, but this is backwards.

Literally any site of your choosing. Just search "E15 seasonal ban" and tell us which one you see.

 

[JoeT4R]

I vote for more ethanol free gas stations! I like it, my 4Runner definitely likes it, but my wallet not so much. Although, I don’t care what my wallet thinks. If I’m yielding better response and better MPG’s, I’m happy. I’ve had excellent results with ethanol free gas. I’d definitely be hesitant to put E15 in my tank though. I haven’t done much research, but I can only imagine it’s gonna hurt the already 13 miles per gallon I get, plus decrease overall engine performance/response.
Pretty sad to see the administration focusing on implementing alternative fuel replacements rather than more important things like education, war on drugs and how it affects the youth, gangs, law enforcement, the list goes on… sorry not trying to get p-litical. Just sayin’

 

[Devbot]

I vote for more ethanol free gas stations! I like it, my 4Runner definitely likes it, but my wallet not so much. Although, I don’t care what my wallet thinks. If I’m yielding better response and better MPG’s, I’m happy.

I'm the same way, I'm fortunate enough to have an ethanol free station near me and the vehicle performs so much better that I really don't pay much attention to the extra bump in price. Initially I stuck with it because throttle response was so much better, but a week and a half ago I had to fill up with regular ol E10 and it feels like I went through it seriously faster than normal - going only to and from work I can last a hair over two weeks but I definitely lost a couple days on that tank for sure. Now I'm curious if I'm actually spending that much more in the long run
I've always thought it would be funny if someone created some redneck device/system to remove ethanol from gas. All it takes is water; it'll separate and mix with the ethanol while separating itself from the fuel... Someone should be able to do it with a couple barrels and a 100ft of copper line :smokin:

 

[Brian.]

Something about able to advance timing to take advantage of the high octane fuel making more power per stroke and increase MPG's.

Having looked into converting my carb and points vehicles (computers!!??! We don't need no stinking computers where We're going!) to run on alcohol as a SHTF mental exercise... you have to RETARD timing because alcohol is far less volitile/takes longer for the flame-front to move through. Same reason it has a higher octane (resistance to pre-ignition) rating. You also have to dump about 10~15% MORE into the carb, so I seriously doubt you're going to be seeing the same, much less better, overall MPG fuel economy. Depending on the cost, you Might see a better cost per mile. No idea on power... clearly, top-fuel (alocohol) dragsters show that lots of power Can be made, but I don't know what they do to achieve that.


I wish I had an ethanol free station close, but 80 miles round trip isn't reasonable. Thinking about doing the homebrew version of sobering up my fuel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSnE4MYwRzs (didn't watch this one, just the most watched of the search results)

 

[19963.4lsr5]

I did the ethanol free test in my Saturn and only thing I noticed was I was out 50c per gallon. No milage change still 43-45mpg.

You can remove the ethanal from gas but you will not have 87 octane anymore.


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[ArthurKotb]

Time will tell. I expect issues with it. So additives will help. Being pre 2001 engines where never designed to run ethonal. Lots of testing seems to be done if folks dig around.

Isn't adding more ethonal to the gas going to curb mpg?

As adding 10% dropped the mpg some. Wouldn't adding more drop it slightly more?

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My 1995 115 Mercury outboard manual says E10 is okay to use and I've never had a problem with it. My manual for the 1999 Sienna also says E10 is okay to use and my 1991 Camry V6 (original owner) ran E10 until I donated it in 2020.

Since only about 1.5% of gas stations nationwide sell E15 (and conversion cost is prohibitively expensive as a short term investment) I doubt it will be a problem to get E10.

 

[ArthurKotb]

Not sure where you found this info, but this is backwards.

Higher ethanol content is specifically sold in the summer to help reduce smog. From June - September is when E15 would be sold. The extra oxygen in ethanol is what is suppose to help reduce smog. Testing doesn’t seem to show a significant improvement, but that’s the general idea.

Well, I posted two source links but you seem to have ignored them. Here's one of them, the Des Moines Register.

Sunlight drives the reaction that creates smog. And, as a result, the U.S. Clean Air Act bans the sale of E15 from June to Sept. 15 in some states.

Please provide a link for a difference of opinion.

President Joe Biden and E15: What to know about the renewable fuel

 

[brillo_76]

My 1995 115 Mercury outboard manual says E10 is okay to use and I've never had a problem with it. My manual for the 1999 Sienna also says E10 is okay to use and my 1991 Camry V6 (original owner) ran E10 until I donated it in 2020.



Since only about 1.5% of gas stations nationwide sell E15 (and conversion cost is prohibitively expensive as a short term investment) I doubt it will be a problem to get E10.

Yes. 10% has been approved by Toyota engineers yes ago. However, they really recommend never exceeding 10%.
The saving grace is only 1.5% of gas stations. So it's less the 2 stations out of a hundred..

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[19963.4lsr5]

In my state E15 is available all year round and 10c cheaper then E10


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[phattyduck]

Having looked into converting my carb and points vehicles (computers!!??! We don't need no stinking computers where We're going!) to run on alcohol as a SHTF mental exercise... you have to RETARD timing because alcohol is far less volitile/takes longer for the flame-front to move through. Same reason it has a higher octane (resistance to pre-ignition) rating.

You have the "slower burn" portion correct - but you have to ignite the fuel EARLIER (advance the timing) to get max torque from higher octane/ethanol content.

Of course, E15 fuel with the same octane rating as E15 fuel would likely burn at the same rate. The rest of the fuel could be lower octane to make up for the extra ethanol content.

-Charlie

 

[brillo_76]

In my state E15 is available all year round and 10c cheaper then E10


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We have very few stations around here with e 15. Mostly around the larger cities. Must be a central state thing.

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[gamefreakgc]

So if we are losing mpg at 10%. Then increasing another 5% we will lose more. How is this helping anything. As making ethonal takes more energy then it produces.

How much pollution is created by producing ethonal?

Is it wise to use corn and food to create it.

I would think this isn't going to help anything. The slight emmision loss isn't taking into account the emissions used to create ethonal.


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I think the reasoning behind removing the ban is to help out some areas of the country that the switch causes seasonally higher prices. This won't help where I live in CA as the winter blend contains more butane, not ethanol. Besides the gas stations always hike their prices at every major national holiday to make more money anyway. For 4th of July week it's not going to matter if they have 10% ethanol, 15% ethanol, or 20% cat pee. It's still going to cost more than it did the week before.

What it really is a minor policy change being announced as a major relief.

 

[brillo_76]

I think the reasoning behind removing the ban is to help out some areas of the country that the switch causes seasonally higher prices. This won't help where I live in CA as the winter blend contains more butane, not ethanol. Besides the gas stations always hike their prices at every major national holiday to make more money anyway. For 4th of July week it's not going to matter if they have 10% ethanol, 15% ethanol, or 20% cat pee. It's still going to cost more than it did the week before.



What it really is a minor policy change being announced as a major relief.

Maybe. I think ts not going to help a thing.

It will actually make things worse for a pile of people.

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[19963.4lsr5]

We have very few stations around here with e 15. Mostly around the larger cities. Must be a central state thing.

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Rutters is the only one in my area with E15


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[Pyral]

I lost the last ethanol free gas station around last year, I was so sad. Also was the last station stull using an analog display. At least it still lets people fill tires for free. I can still get ethanol free, but I would have to get the expensive high octane which is unnecessary.

I don't think I've yet encountered E15, the pumps are annoyingly vague when it comes to ethanol content. They always say "up to" 10% ethanol. Imagine buying protein powder and reading that it contains up to 10% flour, you'd probably assume that they are ripping you off. I don't see how being vague about the ethanol content is any different, your potentially buying gasoline with 10% filler.

Would higher ethanol cause smog check problems? That would really be the feather in the cap, especially since I have CA smog this year.