Still waiting for you to name the two administrations [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION]....
Fact or Fiction?
- Thread starter 1engineer
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Still waiting for you to name the two administrations [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION]....
1engineer
Moderator
Since 1958 the poverty rate in the US has reduced by almost 9 points. What, you want me to name every administration since 1958? Alright:
Dwight David Eisenhower
John Fitzgerald Kennedy
Lyndon Baines Johnson
Richard Milhous Nixon
Gerald R. Ford
James (Jimmy) Earl Carter, Jr.
Ronald Wilson Reagan
George H. W. Bush
William (Bill) Jefferson Clinton
George W. Bush
Barack Obama
Your ORIGINAL statement was, and I paraphrase, that the poor people are not doing any better. Quit moving the target. Your statement was false and I offered proof. The poor people are doing much better than in the past and when social programs are factored in most of them are living standard middle class lives.
My question however referenced the poor doing better under "two administrations in the last 25 years" which would leave:
George W. Bush
Barack Obama
I can't see any evidence that the poor have done better in this stretch or even the middle class? Worldwide yes but not in North America...
1engineer
Moderator
This is what I said that you took exception to:
"I'm not well to do but am entrenched firmly in the middle class. My opinion? No matter who wins, Trump or Clinton, will effect me and people like me (job, middle class, middle age) most. That's OK, I can take it but I see the rich with no change, the poor doing better and the middle guys with jobs paying more."
This is how you responded:
"LOL, the poor never does better under anyone! What you are really pointing out is the steep divide between the rich and poor is suffocating the middle class; that sir, is not partisan!"
Then I answered to prove your statement incorrect and then you moved the target. Move on and think twice before making blanket statements with nothing to back it up.
Moved the target? No, maybe my comment was broad but so was your response. Are you suggesting to me that results from 60 years ago are more relevant to the poor in the last 25 years? I would say to you that your original response given the 60 years span paints a very wide target to support the poor doing better (against what specifically?) but once broken down, both opinions have relevance and validity. As for moving on, you have minimized your role in that.
Hepar
New member
Oh, and I'm also an engineer
Oh, and I'm also an engineer
I have a friend who is a structural engineer and he may be the most illogical person I have ever met when regards to anything outside of the engineering world. But then again I have another friend who is also an engineer and above being one of the most logical individuals I know, is also one of the most intelligent. So, is that a wash?
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wadle5
New member
If there is one thing I learned no matter what job profession every industry has .... smart fellers and fart smellers. What are you?
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Hepar
New member
Depends on what I had for lunch.
jwkilgore
New member
Yes, it always averages out.
:drum:
I'm a structural engineer ([brag]who just passed the NCEES SE Exam!!!:thumb3:[/brag]) who thinks very logically. I drive my very emotional wife crazy at times. Or is it the other way around?
I'm grew up rural extreme conservative :gun6:, but I've lived in various cities for the last 20 years. :hippie: I now classify myself as a moderate who leans conservative on some issues and liberal on others.
I also have an insatiable curiosity, a mind for remembering random trivia and for making logical connections between different topics, and my Google Fu is strong.
And as for math... I know that the past 25 years covers more presidents than just Obama and Bush Jr. Also, when talking on a global/historical scale, unless you are talking extreme homeless poor, the poor in the US do very well. Historically and globally, "poor" means no car, no TV, no electricity, no running water, no private bathroom, and most likely no food. But in the USA it's measured either by the official poverty level or the more accurate supplemental poverty level which takes cost of living into account (i.e., $35,000 could be a comfortable life in rural Mississippi but poverty in the LA basin).
And counting all the social programs, the poor do quite well in this country when compared to a global scale. The people who get screwed are the working poor and lower middle class... the people who make too much to qualify for social programs but not enough to really get by.
Missed one...bite me.
Agreed totally, I should have referenced "working" poor and lower middle class, appreciate the distinction that I missed with my comment.
1engineer
Moderator
Get away from income inequality. That was not the original statement and you know it. Social mobility is a made up thing. People are not equal. There always has been income inequality and there always will be unless we have a pure socialist society. They are NOT getting "worse" if you add in the social programs the poor receive. I will say that rich people have more money than me if that helps you out. And I am not mad about it either.
How equal is a doctor making $500K a year (after going to school for 12 additional years and putting in 100 hour weeks and being on call 24/7) and a guy that didn't finish high school (for whatever reason) and has no marketable skills because he refuses to learn a trade because? Maybe the doctor should just give that guy $250K so it would be equal.
1engineer
Moderator
This is the truth. Those who are too proud to take a hand out from the government and live day to day working two or three jobs just to decide on food or power this week. These are the ones I wish I could help more.
-JD-
New member
What in the hell are you talking about?! Did I, or anyone else, make ANY statement even resembling saying that a doctor has to give half his salary to a guy who didnt' graduate high school? If you want to have a rational debate about taxation thats another issue, but this is a laughably ignorant statement.
Social mobility is as made up as 'poor' and 'rich' I suppose. As are a lot of other things. Doesn't mean its not a valid metric. Are poor people doing better than in the past? Yes. Has their standard of living risen proportionally with the rest of the country, the top earners, or the rate of inflation? No. Thats what the real issue is (or at least should be).
Raise the minimum wage?
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wadle5
New member
Yeah. . . . .that turned out well.
Or you could lower taxes or the government could spend within budget or. . . . Etc .....heck move to Canada since apparently it's so great and you got everything figured out up there?
Raising the minimum for a job that is not meant to be a career will not solve the problem. What will make that individual want to better themselves and contribute more to society when they can just skate by and get paid as much? Although you may not have said it directly, engineers Dr analogy is exactly what you were inferring. He just put a real story to it.
Also you know who is always hiring and will give you free college, pay for all your travels, housing, 3 hot meals, and the chance at a great rewarding career....the good ol US of A military. Sign up. We don't need anymore joke demonstrators protesting Wall Street. Go visit another part of the world and see how great these low income families here stateside have it. With cheaper housing, free food, etc etc. Only have a job at McDonald's and complain about what they get paid hourly but don't have a problem owning a $600 iPhone, maybe working 40 hours a week, not showing up in time, and they have a car.
Last time I checked the poor in other countries maybe have a land line and either walk or take public transportation.
As for staying on topic and bringing us back down to earth
FACT:
The opportunities out there are endless for individuals who want to make above minimum wage....one route is just easier.
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1engineer
Moderator
You mentioned income inequality. I gave you an example of income equality.
Please tell me you are smart enough to realize what would happen if the minimum wage was increased. It's a great political talking point for the left but in reality it would hurt those you are trying to help. Why? You raise the minimum wage across the board. As soon as you do those businesses that use minimum wage employees automatically raise their prices of their wares to compensate for the increased salary hit. The people who buy products from these businesses, including minimum wage earners, now pay much more, negating their salary increase.
Get rid of your passionate verbiage and speak logically and coherently or you will be the first ever to be on my ignore list.
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ndcent
New member
Mods speaking in this fashion is what gives me pause about their ability to moderate responsibly.
wadle5
New member
Oh come on just like society there will always be louder people like you or other mods to balance it out. . . I mean complain when confronted with logic.
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