Handgun in the 4R

[BD-430]

These types of safeties also applies to the Sigs at least the P229

Sigs are great guns too. I personally like the simplicity and reliability of Glocks. I can totally detail strip every part from the gun in about 15 minutes using only a single punch or small screw driver. That makes them very easy to clean and inspect.

I'm not trying to downplay any other gun brand. I just happen to love Glocks, but would not hesitate to buy a Sig either.

I also own a Khar PM9, a 38 Detective Special, and a WWII 1911 I got from my dad - I love that gun, just not for personal defense.

The next gun I would probably seriously consider is an M&P.

 

[M1911]

2nd by your logic the OP should start with .22 then move to .380. The 357Sig is just as easy to shoot as the 9mm.

There are a lot of people who recommend that people start with a .22lr, including the NRA. And there are plenty of good reasons for that -- .22lr handguns are inexpensive and accurate, the ammunition is dirt cheap, they have little report and almost no recoil. As a result, it is very easy for a novice to learn basic marksmanship with a .22lr. In contrast, if you start someone with a .44 Magnum Mountain Gun using full house loads, they aren't going to learn much at all, other than having a massive flinch.

No, .357 SIG is NOT as easy to shoot as 9mm for a novice. .357 SIG has a much louder report and more recoil. As an experienced instructor, I can tell you from direct experience that novices have a hard time not flinching, and the louder the report and the greater the recoil, the more they flinch.

And even for an experienced shooter, they can shoot a 9mm faster than a .357 SIG (less recoil means faster recovery and faster split times). There is a reason that many IDPA and USPSA competitors shoot 9mm and very, very few shoot .357 SIG.

Your right performance doesn't matter if he can't hit the target but what does that have to do with his ability to hit the target, a miss is a miss regardless of if it's a 9mm or 357Sig. That's why you practice. So what if it costs more. As I mentioned before, what's your life worth?

Unless you are independently wealthy, everyone has a budget. With the same budget, he can shoot more 9mm than .357 SIG. Therefore he can practice more. Therefore he will be a better marksman. Therefore, he will be more likely to hit his target. It is just elementary logic.

 

[M1911]

I need to look into these classes, not sure if they have such things in my area, but definitely sounds like something I will do, even if it's a drive to get to the class.

Training in defensive shooting is a very good thing. There are a number of very good trainers (and a few charlatans as well) and many of them travel the country teaching classes. You might be able to find one of them coming through your area. Some of the good ones include:

John Farnam
Mas Ayoob
Randy Cain
Gunsite
Mike Seeklander

Thanks for the info, sounds like practice practice practice is the common suggestion, and I will be sure to do it.

Some of the very best practice you can do is in your basement, dry firing, without any ammunition. It is free, takes little time, and helps you overcome flinching.

One more thing, if you are going to carry concealed, get a good holster and dedicated gun belt. I can't stress enough that you need quality gear, and you won't find it in a gun shop. Wilderness Instructor belts work well. Comp-tac makes decent Kydex outside the waistband holsters for range use. For concealed carry, it is hard to beat a Crossbreed inside the waistband holster.

 

[Gerdo]

made a new thread so I'll ask my questions there lol.

personally I wouldn't feel good about leaving my gun in the car.

About all you can do is lock your car and lock the gun in a gun box. Something like this In Car Gun Lockers

 

[mikebontoft]

that's a neat idea though. is the G26 super small? I'm starting to get interested in that an the XD 9 subcompact... but the G19 is just fine to carry? how bout the G26 with the extended mag?

Just saying.... it could be relevant for the OP anyway.

 

[KCcarguy]

that's a neat idea though. is the G26 super small? I'm starting to get interested in that an the XD 9 subcompact... but the G19 is just fine to carry? how bout the G26 with the extended mag?

Just saying.... it could be relevant for the OP anyway.

I've got a XD .40 SC. I'm pretty sure its the same dimensions as the 9mm. It's a great gun but honestly its a little bulky for a CC.....especially the width. If you're a big guy or like wearing baggy/ layered clothes it might work. Be sure you're honest with yourself about the guns practicality as a CCW. Otherwise you'll end up leaving it at home more often than not.

I believe Glocks have a thinner profile.

 

[Okki]

Skinny 130lbs guy here..... I carry a G26 and have no issue holding on to it. an extended mag, or a mag with a pinky rest will fix any concerns about where to put your pinky. :hungry:

I use a Walther P99 for my nightstand gun. I also recommend you look into a surpressor for your nightstand gun so you dont put your hearing out IF you have to fire it inside your house. You will NOT be looking for your hearing protection when things go bump in the night.

Okki

 

[mform]

My wife and two daughters practice with a Ruger Single Six revolver with 22 mags. GREAT training for novices and not crazy expensive. They also each went to handgun school. I might be the worst shot in the house....and damn proud of that. Inside the house, not much willl beat a Taurus Judge with Winchester .410 personal defense ammo. Takes the pressure off pinpoint accuracy. Not a carry weapon though.

 

[jbstrd]

About all you can do is lock your car and lock the gun in a gun box. Something like this In Car Gun Lockers

Console Vault: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-g...you-do-your-5th-gen-today-62.html#post1255290 .....for 5th Gens

 

[zooroadbaja]

I own a couple 1911's. If I carry, it's either my Talon II with Bobtail or the Kobra Carry. I like the slow recoil, and the stopping power of a 45. Also I wouldn't buy a 9mm 1911. That's like buying a Shelby Cobra and asking them to install a 4banger.

 

[whodat]

I'm friends with (recently retired) SSA Buford Boone who used to run the FBI Ballistic Research Facility, and in my last job, I did quite a bit of research on ballistics: terminal, exterior, and interior. I'm not going to get into an argument about ballistics on the Internet because that's just silly, but I will tell you that I know for a fact that the .357, overall, is not a superior performing caliber in terms of terminal ballistics compared to the .40 or even 9mm. This is backed up with hundreds of data points using gelatin, live tissue, cadavers, high speed photography, and many bullets, bolts, and barrels. As a matter of fact, SSA Boone had concluded just before he retired that there is a superior performing 9mm that he believes all LEOs should carry, but the .40cal bonded ammunition he chose for the FBI is currently the "second best" in terms of an everyday carry for LEOs. His personal opinion is that all LEOs should carry rifles, but he was never able to conquer the politics of that one, and that's an entirely different discussion. You mentioned the USSS, and the day before SSA Boone retired I was in a meeting with him that was cut short because the USSS was coming to talk to him about his latest pistol cartridge research. The USSS relies heavily on the FBI's research, and the firearms industry at large for the latest developments. Nearly every year they do another down-select for a new rifle or a new bullet based on changing requirements and new research. They also don't have standardized ammunition across the entire Service like the FBI does across the Bureau. Anyway, what I know about ballistics is shallow compared to a lot of folks I know, but what I do know is that it's an ever-changing field with very few true experts, and the true experts that do exist in the field I happen to know personally or can get to with one or two degrees of separation. So, I can comfortably say that amongst themselves they will never say verifiably what the best bullet "period" - they always add the caveat, "for your circumstance and based on my experience, but...".

You could also get into the argument about which is better: fewer, larger misplaced holes; or more, smaller misplaced holes? Point is, there's no real sense arguing about it. I carry a G19 as my everyday carry. :driving:

Damn, what do you do for a living? Sounds interesting with all the people you meet. This forum has tons of people with tons of knowledge and experiences.

I'm surprised that nobody is recommending the M&P9/M&P9c more. I've carried a Sig P229, Glock 19, Springfield EMP9 (1911 type), Glock 26, and a Kimber Aegis 9mm (1911 type) on my quest to find the perfect carry gun.

Here's my feedback:
Sig P229 9mm - Hate single action/double action, very reliable... I couldn't shoot it accurately though. Might have been bc it's my first pistol. EXTREMELY heavy for carry use. Nice ammo capacity.

Glock 19 - Didn't like the fact that there was no external safety. Google Glock accidental discharge. There's numerous stories of objects/people accidentally getting into their triggerguard and shooting themselves/friends. Nice ammo capacity and extremely reliable. I kept shooting left of my target for some reason. Great groups though.

Springfield EMP9 - Couldn't get the pistol to function reliably with hollow point ammo after sending it into Springfield twice. Excellent customer service though and I didn't have to pay a dime to send it in. Low ammo capacity. Extremely accurate.

Kimber Aegis 9mm - Great pistol! I almost regret trading this pistol off, but there was an offer I couldn't refuse. Shot accurately. It had a slim profile for carry and an external safety. It was a full size grip though which makes it tough to conceal. Low ammo capacity.

Glock 26 - Similar to Glock 19, but shorter. I didn't like that it was still the same width as the Glock 19/23. 12 rnd capacity was great for a handgun that size though. You'll have to learn to shoot without a pinky hold on the grip.

SW M&P9c - This is what I carry currently. It has a 12 round capacity, external safety and night sights. I can hit a human sized target out to 25 yards with probably 80% rate. The short barrel is not ideal for longer range engagements (ie active shooter in a mall). I might be able to hit someone 1/24 rounds I carry at 50 yards.

SW M&P shield - I haven't shot this yet, but it seems like an excellent concealed carry pistol for close range defensive scenarios. It's a single stack M&P9c, so it carries less ammo, but from what I hear, it's extremely concealable and we all know that the best pistol is the one you will carry every day. Try it out.

Random advice:
1) I wouldn't go lower than 9mm for carry
2) Make sure you can afford to buy lots of ammo after you buy the pistol. Any pistol is crap if you don't practice.
3) Don't get price gouged. The value of firearms/ammo has shot up 2-400% in the last month. It might be worth it to wait it out... if you believe we'll still have gun rights in 6 months.
4) I am glad that there are this many citizens exercising their right to protecting themselves on a t4r forum. Lets me know America is alive and well.

Thanks for serving! And I wonder when m1911 was talking about getting a good holster, maybe he was also hinting a good holster would help to prevent accidental discharge, but that's something I'll keep in mind. Unfortunately my class is coming up the Jan 14th, so I'll have to buy when the price is inflated :ybrick:

^^ out of curiosity did you happen to see one of my posts where I mentioned those two? Appreciate your input since I was looking at those, especially the m&p9c.

Nah I guess it isn't totally on topic. sorry op.

No problem man, I'm learning from your questions too.

Experienced shooters practice enough to commit handling the gun to muscle memory which makes the manipulation of the safety reflexive and its presence (or absence) an operational moot point.

Glocks and DA Sigs weren't designed for experienced shooters. They were designed for the police and conscript market that is largely disinterested in pistol shooting (police: any shooting), extremely price conscious, and on the police side hadn't yet transitioned from revolvers which didn't have safeties either.

That isn't to say in any way that they're bad guns. But experienced shooters aren't why the safety isn't there.

Muscle memory is a pretty good point. I think I'll look into an aftermarket safety for the glock and see how fast I can switch off the safety while practicing. I tend to over think things, so who knows, the extra time I take to switch off the safety, I would convince myself that I should shoot the guy shooting at me/my family, or maybe the bullets flying towards me would be enough convincing :AK47: I guess what I could do is practice with a safety a lot at the range, then take one of the stress classes and see if I actually remember to switch off the safety. If I forget, then I'll take the safety off. Thanks for your input!

Training in defensive shooting is a very good thing. There are a number of very good trainers (and a few charlatans as well) and many of them travel the country teaching classes. You might be able to find one of them coming through your area. Some of the good ones include:

John Farnam
Mas Ayoob
Randy Cain
Gunsite
Mike Seeklander



Some of the very best practice you can do is in your basement, dry firing, without any ammunition. It is free, takes little time, and helps you overcome flinching.

One more thing, if you are going to carry concealed, get a good holster and dedicated gun belt. I can't stress enough that you need quality gear, and you won't find it in a gun shop. Wilderness Instructor belts work well. Comp-tac makes decent Kydex outside the waistband holsters for range use. For concealed carry, it is hard to beat a Crossbreed inside the waistband holster.

Wow M1911, thanks for all your info! Much appreciated!

Skinny 130lbs guy here..... I carry a G26 and have no issue holding on to it. an extended mag, or a mag with a pinky rest will fix any concerns about where to put your pinky. :hungry:

I use a Walther P99 for my nightstand gun. I also recommend you look into a surpressor for your nightstand gun so you dont put your hearing out IF you have to fire it inside your house. You will NOT be looking for your hearing protection when things go bump in the night.

Okki

Did not think about the sound in a home and a suppressor, thanks Okki! Now to search if they're legal in Iowa.

 

[mikebontoft]

If they do allow silencers, may I suggest SilencerCo. Yes. I'm biased. I have family that works for them

pretty much, they offer a 30dB reduction (dry) on most everything.

 

[McFly2003]

I too recommend a can for an in home weapon, if possible. My bed side setup is a sig p226 9mm with a Gemtech Tundra. Running 147 grain hydroshock. Sounds like an airsoft gun

 

[harper7]

If your going to let your wife train and shoot it too, make sure she can rack the slide.I had to buy my x-GF a S&W 642 38 special revolver because she had a hard time with semi-automatics being a 5 ft 90 lb weakling. She actually enjoyed it and got her CHL too.Bought her a Glock 26 but ended up selling it . I think it's important for women you love to be trained in guns too as the coward ash holes of the world will rather pick an easy target rather then grown men.

For me, a Mossberg 590 SP with 00 buckshot for the house, can't miss even a Zombie and carry a Desert Eagle"Baby Eagle" .40 S&W that I've had for years and have had 1000's of rounds thru it as I used to live in the boonies and loaded my own ammo.

 

[jam23r1]

.40s SUCK - YouTube

 

[KCcarguy]

.40s SUCK - YouTube

I say shoot what YOU can shoot.

 

[aha2988]

as arrogant as that guy is in the video, there are some facts to his speech. I carry a .40 have zero issues shooting it or being accurate. I can hit a 4 inch circle 15 times at 30 yards with the practice I keep up.

with the higher pressure round it does have significantly more recoil than a 9mm but I'm comfortable with it. It may wear out faster than a 9mm but what parts can you not replace on a glock if it breaks or wears out

this guy is much more informative about hand guns and rifles he does many comparisons http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddP7IHHnM4A

 

[philsey]

If your going to let your wife train and shoot it too, make sure she can rack the slide..

Harper makes an excellent point. I have a Browning BDA 380 that is even hard for me to rack, a woman simply couldn't do it.

Gary ... about arming an "ex-" .... we need to talk.

 

[M1911]

Thanks for serving! And I wonder when m1911 was talking about getting a good holster, maybe he was also hinting a good holster would help to prevent accidental discharge, but that's something I'll keep in mind.

Any good holster that covers the trigger guard will reduce the chance of some types of negligent discharges. Most of us who carry concealed have a cardboard box (or two) in the basement holding the holsters that didn't quite work for us. Different people have different shapes and different wardrobes, so what is comfortable and conceals adequately for some people won't work for other people. Don't waste your money on cheap, mass market holsters (for example Galco) -- smaller shops make better holsters for the same money.

You should be able to get a Kydex holster quickly for most any gun from Comp-tac or similar vendors.

.40s SUCK - YouTube

Remember what I said about some instructors being charlatans? :nono:

All I need to know about James Yeager can be seen in this picture, captured from a video that Yeager himself posted of one of his classes:

The idiot with the camera between the targets is one of Yeager's instructors, and, yes, they are actually shooting real bullets at those targets just inches away from the potential Darwin award candidate. Unfortunately, I know more than that about Yeager.

 

[02SE]

Remember what I said about some instructors being charlatans? :nono:

All I need to know about James Yeager can be seen in this picture, captured from a video that Yeager himself posted of one of his classes:

The idiot with the camera between the targets is one of Yeager's instructors, and, yes, they are actually shooting real bullets at those targets just inches away from the potential Darwin award candidate. Unfortunately, I know more than that about Yeager.

Wow, that picture reminds me of this moron.

DEA Agent Shoots Himself.flv - YouTube