Is it just me or do Limiteds (and Nightshades) have some sort of stigma about them?

[BlackWorksInc]

It's mainly accomplished via Magick Helical Gnomes(R) that use Wibbly Wobbly Mathematics Stuffs (totally legit technical term) to induce Torque-Sational Asymmetrical Bifurcation of the Chooch from the input side to the output side.

Basically, it's just a matter of how the gear ratios on the individual gears stack up with each other as well as how the planetary assembly is geared/meshed together, this results in an allowable "slip" in the torque being input vs. output before the actual Torsen function kicks in. The result is that you need to over come that 40/60 bias before the Torsen actually starts locking up and managing torque effectively.

This is the simplest way I can think of to explain it at the moment because I am on my phone and lack pictures, also it's Saturday and I sure as hell am not doing math and physics on the forum at 22:30 on a Saturday. Lol

 

[2021nightshade4x4]

I have a viscous coupler in my 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee with NV249. I used to have an issue where after a long interstate run, the vehicle would then buck repeatedly in low speed maneuvering if I turned too tightly to pull into a parking space.

It’s just not used for long trips anymore so I haven’t experienced it lately.


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[Captain Spalding]

I accept that there’s an asymmetrical torque split but I don’t understand what’s happening in the Torsen diff to make that happy. Thanks for the effort Stiles wnd Blackworks. I’ll take it from here.

 

[GlockGuy]

I absolutely love my '21 Nightshade. I don't off road and don't plan to. It suits me perfectly.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I accept that there’s an asymmetrical torque split but I don’t understand what’s happening in the Torsen diff to make that happy. Thanks for the effort Stiles wnd Blackworks. I’ll take it from here.

Hopefully this will help give you a better idea of what we were alluding to: Toyota all-wheel drive. Torsen AWD

It is just math and physics, the input torque is divided/biased to a 40/60 split because of the ratio created by the different types of gears, their teeth numbers, as well as the fact it is a planetary gear arrangement. All those factors are mathematical and result in splitting the torque to 60% to the rear wheels via the rear axle output side of the unit, while the difference in gear ratio results in 40% of the torque being transferred via the outer portion of the unit and through the front axle gearset of the transfer case when the vehicle is in an "unloaded" or straight ahead/equal traction condition. When the load on the vehicle is changed because either it's turning and/or one or more wheels are binding up/have more traction than the others, the different parts of the planetary gearset will move at different speeds than when in a straight line, this results in the delivery of torque being physically changed and how the unit changes from 40/60 to say a 20/80 torque delivery to allow the front axle to not bind up in a turn on a full-time 4WD vehicle.

Planetary gearsets are tricky to learn because you have to visualize multiple parts rotating, being held still, and then the result of those functions at different stages. I find Toyota's documentation showing the partial "cut-away" slices like in the link I posted to be a bit confusing myself; I would much prefer a more traditional isometric cutaway with colored/labeled sections so I can better see how the whole unit moves.

But it just comes down to the math of gear ratios and how different types of gears interact in a planetary gearset; once you wrap your head around the fact that gearset actually has more than one "output path" the way it biases torque is more obvious.

This isn't a VF2-BM transfer case, but it's roughly similar in overall layout to give you an idea of what I am talking about. The part labelled "Clutch Pack" would basically be where the Torsen T3 lives in the Limited's transfer case. You can see that the outer portion of it's casing drives the chain for the front axle gear set and the rear output shaft drives the rear axle; the input shaft side drives the transfer case and input side of the Torsen.

 

[Captain Spalding]

Hopefully this will help give you a better idea of what we were alluding to: Toyota all-wheel drive. Torsen AWD

Okay. Now we are getting somewhere! Thanks for your patience. Check me on this: The construction of the Torsen diff in the link is different than those previously seen. The planetary gear setup, with all the shafts being parallel, is what allows the torque split, because the front output is inside the rear output and so must necessarily be a different size.

“The planetary gear carrier (with 8 planet gears) is connected to the transmission output shaft. It rotates front drive via sun gear and rear drive via epicycle.”​

The ratio of the sun drive to the epicycle is 40/60. Yes? So they can both turn at the same speed but, because of the different diameters, with different torque.

 

[2021nightshade4x4]

I absolutely love my '21 Nightshade. I don't off road and don't plan to. It suits me perfectly.

I just got offered $46k for my 21 Nightshade 4x4 with 17k miles. By a DEALER.

I am blown away.


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[aggrobot]

I just got offered $46k for my 21 Nightshade 4x4 with 17k miles. By a DEALER.

I am blown away.


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A replacement vehicle will cost you even more (assuming you need one).

 

[3kushn]

For me, it's an odd vehicle. Not bad, just a little hard to understand the marketing team's choices for it. It's street oriented based on the small tires and 20" wheels and the low hanging plastics. But the chassis isn't really the ideal choice for that target use when you have a highlander in the stable that is almost universally better for highway duty. And it doesn't come with some of the things that I think would make it a lot more compelling. KDSS and a V8/Turbo6. If it had the 4.6 v8 and KDSS no one would think twice about it justifying the price or its fit in the lineup.

If my wife were buying a 4R, it's the one she'd go for. And I think it would serve very well as an all around SUV. When I was shopping for mine, if it had KDSS I likely would have gone for the Limited for the nicer interior and then cut up the plastics as needed. KDSS is the biggest odd choice to me, yeah it adds a few inches of articulation - but it's biggest benefit is on the highway. Seems like a natural fit for the Limited trim.

I didn't know enough when I made my choice and regretting it somewhat.

My thinking was I'm never going off roading but want 4WD for other situations. I do get into back roads often. Gravel I also drive a lot, I think. Approx 45K/year. I assumed the Limited would offer a slightly softer ride.

My thinking went sideways with the 20" wheels. Thinking tire life, Duh??


Overall I'm not thrilled with my 4R but that's what I'm going to live with.

 

[Steve40th396]

I just got offered $46k for my 21 Nightshade 4x4 with 17k miles. By a DEALER.

I am blown away.


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They are getting desperate. I think they know the market is about to get ugly in 3rd/4th quarter due to imminent recession and are trying to buy and sell as much as they can at high prices.

 

[mbm112]

I didn't know enough when I made my choice and regretting it somewhat.

My thinking was I'm never going off roading but want 4WD for other situations. I do get into back roads often. Gravel I also drive a lot, I think. Approx 45K/year. I assumed the Limited would offer a slightly softer ride.

My thinking went sideways with the 20" wheels. Thinking tire life, Duh??


Overall I'm not thrilled with my 4R but that's what I'm going to live with.

In my first year of ownership I put on 50k miles and I still average over 20k/year.

First thing I did when I got my Limited was switch to 17” wheels. Made a huge difference in ride.

Then I ditched x-reas soon after. It made for great handling but I do a lot of off-roading around Colorado and Utah. I chose a progressive spring setup from Dobinsons so now it rides like a boat, which I like for my uses.


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[stiles_s]

I didn't know enough when I made my choice and regretting it somewhat.

My thinking was I'm never going off roading but want 4WD for other situations. I do get into back roads often. Gravel I also drive a lot, I think. Approx 45K/year. I assumed the Limited would offer a slightly softer ride.

My thinking went sideways with the 20" wheels. Thinking tire life, Duh??


Overall I'm not thrilled with my 4R but that's what I'm going to live with.

Yeah, the irony is that the Limited doesn't ride as well as the ORP/KDSS I had. Better body control and better on road handling, but the ride is worse. 17s to 17s so apples to apples.

The body control for a truck like this is pretty impressive, and it isn't harsh, but my ORP was plush by comparison.

My perfect 4runner -- that they don't make:
- Interior: Limited
- Body: Pro but without the hood scoop
- Drivetrain: Limited
- Suspension: ORP/KDSS with some Bilsteins for less nose dive
- Oh and the v8 from my old GX470 since I'm dreaming

Don't tell me to buy a GX460 btw -- that ain't it either. Maybe a "late" LC100

 

[2021nightshade4x4]

Yeah, the irony is that the Limited doesn't ride as well as the ORP/KDSS I had. Better body control and better on road handling, but the ride is worse. 17s to 17s so apples to apples.

The body control for a truck like this is pretty impressive, and it isn't harsh, but my ORP was plush by comparison.

My perfect 4runner -- that they don't make:
- Interior: Limited
- Body: Pro but without the hood scoop
- Drivetrain: Limited
- Suspension: ORP/KDSS with some Bilsteins for less nose dive
- Oh and the v8 from my old GX470 since I'm dreaming

Don't tell me to buy a GX460 btw -- that ain't it either. Maybe a "late" LC100

Hear me out… LX 570


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[aggrobot]

I didn't know enough when I made my choice and regretting it somewhat.

My thinking was I'm never going off roading but want 4WD for other situations. I do get into back roads often. Gravel I also drive a lot, I think. Approx 45K/year. I assumed the Limited would offer a slightly softer ride.

My thinking went sideways with the 20" wheels. Thinking tire life, Duh??


Overall I'm not thrilled with my 4R but that's what I'm going to live with.

I dont spend a lot of time off-roading. Its not a hobby of mine, but I do get out on a lot of dirt/gravel roads. I also spend some time on some beaches, a bit of highway driving, and the full-time AWD for snowy/icy roads is huge. From what you’ve described, i would have also assumed you picked the right 4r to suit your sensibilities. What are you regretting? As others have mentioned, wheels and tires can be easily swapped out so suit your tastes. If youre looking to get into off-reading as a hobby, you’ve still got a great platform to begin with.

 

[Humble Leader]

I dont spend a lot of time off-roading. Its not a hobby of mine, but I do get out on a lot of dirt/gravel roads. I also spend some time on some beaches, a bit of highway driving, and the full-time AWD for snowy/icy roads is huge. From what you’ve described, i would have also assumed you picked the right 4r to suit your sensibilities. What are you regretting? As others have mentioned, wheels and tires can be easily swapped out so suit your tastes. If youre looking to get into off-reading as a hobby, you’ve still got a great platform to begin with.

because it doesnt have a rear locker so therefore it's not worth ever driving offroad lane: (jk obviously)

I think the biggest issue people have with the 2014+ limiteds are those front bumpers that seem to stick down more than other trims (I don't know I never measured). honestly though I think the 10-13 4runners had the best front end, all pretty much the same, but I'm biased I have a 2012. most of the other limited trim components can be removed or swapped out

 

[aggrobot]

because it doesnt have a rear locker so therefore it's not worth ever driving offroad lane:

I think the biggest issue people have with the 2014+ limiteds are those front bumpers that seem to stick down more than other trims (I don't know I never measured). honestly though I think the 10-13 4runners had the best front end, all pretty much the same, but I'm biased I have a 2012. most of the other limited trim components can be removed or swapped out

If youre looking to get into off-roading, a lift, wheels and tires would put you on much more capable ground. It is my understanding you can also get a rear locker installed for a reasonable price, if you so desired. most folks who get serious about off-roading remove the bumper and go with some kind of armor, so the diff bumper being argued as huge limitation is kinda meh, IMO. The rear bumper does sit lower than other trims. As a consequence you have an inferior approach/departure angle as compared to other models. If youre not wheeling, this is not all too relevant. Again, a lift w/wheels and tires helps this a bit as well. Ive been rocking a limited of one kind or another since 2018 in all kinds of terrain and this simply hasn’t been a problem. Bottom line: Similar mods as everyone else = similar outcome as everyone else, plus you have the added benefit of full-time AWD. Of course along with these mods comes the hit to fuel economy…

 

[Humble Leader]

If youre looking to get into off-roading, a lift, wheels and tires would put you on much more capable ground. It is my understanding you can also get a rear locker installed for a reasonable price, if you so desired. most folks who get serious about off-roading remove the bumper and go with some kind of armor, so the diff bumper being argued as huge limitation is kinda meh, IMO. The rear bumper does sit lower than other trims. As a consequence you have an inferior approach/departure angle as compared to other models. If youre not wheeling, this is not all too relevant. Again, a lift w/wheels and tires helps this a bit as well. Ive been rocking a limited of one kind or another since 2018 in all kinds of terrain and this simply hasn’t been a problem. Bottom line: Similar mods as everyone else = similar outcome as everyone else, plus you have the added benefit of full-time AWD. Of course along with these mods comes the hit to fuel economy…

agree 100%. my rear locker comment was not being serious. I have a 2012 limited and I have made some modifications to un-limited it in certain areas. there are of course some scenarios where the extra offroad goodies will help you, but 95% of people will not need them for mild to moderate offroading with a daily driven 4runner. the full time 4wd with torsen is a good system and honestly (and don't forget ATRAC) I wouldn't buy an SUV without AWD or full time 4wd that is also to be used as a daily driver. 5 months of winter up here, no thanks I'll take the AWD/4wd over the goodies and rear locker. plus like you said, can always add a rear locker later if I REALLY wanted to

yes I know you can switch to 4wd manually in a part time trim but going from snow drift covered roads, unplowed and unpaved hilly areas to dry pavement means for a lot of manual transfer case action. kind of a pain

 

[aggrobot]

agree 100%. my rear locker comment was not being serious. I have a 2012 limited and I have made some modifications to un-limited it in certain areas. there are of course some scenarios where the extra offroad goodies will help you, but 95% of people will not need them for mild to moderate offroading with a daily driven 4runner. the full time 4wd with torsen is a good system and honestly (and don't forget ATRAC) I wouldn't buy an SUV without AWD or full time 4wd that is also to be used as a daily driver. 5 months of winter up here, no thanks I'll take the AWD/4wd over the goodies and rear locker. plus like you said, can always add a rear locker later if I REALLY wanted to

yes I know you can switch to 4wd manually in a part time trim but going from snow drift covered roads, unplowed and unpaved hilly areas to dry pavement means for a lot of manual transfer case action. kind of a pain

Ah, my apologies. My sarcasm meter broke sometime in the last few years, hah.

 

[Lexington]

agree 100%. my rear locker comment was not being serious. I have a 2012 limited and I have made some modifications to un-limited it in certain areas. there are of course some scenarios where the extra offroad goodies will help you, but 95% of people will not need them for mild to moderate offroading with a daily driven 4runner. the full time 4wd with torsen is a good system and honestly (and don't forget ATRAC) I wouldn't buy an SUV without AWD or full time 4wd that is also to be used as a daily driver. 5 months of winter up here, no thanks I'll take the AWD/4wd over the goodies and rear locker. plus like you said, can always add a rear locker later if I REALLY wanted to

yes I know you can switch to 4wd manually in a part time trim but going from snow drift covered roads, unplowed and unpaved hilly areas to dry pavement means for a lot of manual transfer case action. kind of a pain

If you’re not a serious off-roader I think the Limited drive train is a much better option. You don’t have to worry about switching back and forth.