K&N Air Filter Available

Do you have anything to back this up? Seems like you're making a lot of assumptions about the physical properties of a filter. Why does it have to be bigger holes? Couldn't there just be more holes?
More holes? Sure, all you need is more surface area, but K&N filters are designed to fit in the OEM space so there is a limit to how much surface area you can get into that space and there aren't any secret ways to fold more surface area than the OEM filter has already got. So that leaves changing the filter medium from something restrictive like the OEM filter to something less restrictive like the K&N filter, which has bigger holes and relies on a film of oil to capture particulates in the air.

These aren't assumptions, by the way. I spent a lot of time sitting in classrooms learning dumb things like the seven different types of clutch mechanisms, why polishing intake ports can boost both horsepower and emissions, how to calculate the jetting of a carb for any altitude, and why you don't put 91 into an engine built for 87. I'm not claiming I know everything, but I'm not assuming things either.
 
Its true. K&N DOES allow more contaminents into your engine. I have an oil sample on my truck to prove it...elevated silicon levels which is basically dirt I was told from that. Do I still have it? You bet. Does it bother me? Not really. Crap is always going to get in there regardless. Now if the level were higher then yea I would replace it but they arent. Think about this....have you EVER heard K&N tout their filtration atributes? I havent. Do they flow more.....oh yea. Top end improvement but not bottom. Are they worth it? If you got extra cash burning a hole in your pocket or you like listening to it suck air in with an intake kit. I have searched this for quite some time and on another forum (truck) that Im a member on I posted up a filtration test in terms of flow vs. filtration.

Check this out as you wont find a more complete test. Filter Tests
 
Its true. K&N DOES allow more contaminents into your engine. I have an oil sample on my truck to prove it...elevated silicon levels which is basically dirt I was told from that. Do I still have it? You bet. Does it bother me? Not really. Crap is always going to get in there regardless. Now if the level were higher then yea I would replace it but they arent. Think about this....have you EVER heard K&N tout their filtration atributes? I havent. Do they flow more.....oh yea. Top end improvement but not bottom. Are they worth it? If you got extra cash burning a hole in your pocket or you like listening to it suck air in with an intake kit. I have searched this for quite some time and on another forum (truck) that Im a member on I posted up a filtration test in terms of flow vs. filtration.

Check this out as you wont find a more complete test. Filter Tests

Let me get this straight. You know that the K&N lets more dirt into your engine but your logic is" Crap is always going to get in there regardless."

With logic like that ,why use a filter at all ?Crap is always going to get in there regardless." Then it can really flow and you'll gain another 1-2 more hp on the top end.

Me personally,I'll take filtration over flow on a non race truck. Maybe yours is a race truck though.
 
count me among those sticking with the oem paper filter. the benefits (if any) of the "less-restricted" aftermarkets are dubious.

These aren't assumptions, by the way. I spent a lot of time sitting in classrooms learning dumb things like ... why you don't put 91 into an engine built for 87.
so why not? always thought that the ECU would just tune the mix to compensate; throwing $ away. :nerd:
 
Hey Im not busting your balls for not using it am I? Ive had it in there for years. I dont have a baseline oil analysis to go off of to prove it indeed was the filter...just going buy what they told me. I have 110K miles on it and got it when it had 28K. I have a BBC motor and custom tuning among other stuff. I need the open element for plenty of reasons I wont get into such as high AIT's and KR.

To each their own. Its not like Im driving in the desert or anything.
 
so why not? always thought that the ECU would just tune the mix to compensate; throwing $ away. :nerd:
On some vehicles, sure the computer will adjust the ignition timing to prevent knock/ping accordingly. But most computers are meant to adjust in variations in similar grades of gas, not skipping to different tiers of gas. And there are still vehicles out there that aren't built to sense ignition timing issues. All the owner's do by using the 91 in an 87 is reduce their engine life and get WORSE performance due to the inefficient burning of the air/fuel mixture (lower octane fuels burn at a lower temp) and worse gas mileage. If you continue to put 91 in an 87, you eventually get cool things like backfires and blown mufflers because the unburnt air/fuel mix starts detonating in the exhaust. And if the timing is even a bit off... or you run 87 in a engine designed for premium, you risk pre-ignition.

Is it as drastic a problem in new vehicles as it used to be? No. But you'd be surprised how many people believe that "premium" somehow equals "better" when all it really means is that it's designed for high compression engines that would induce compression detonation with 87 octane.
 
But you'd be surprised how many people believe that "premium" somehow equals "better" when all it really means is that it's designed for high compression engines that would induce compression detonation with 87 octane.
Finally! Youve got to be the first person Ive seen that understands this. Thats why I have to use it in my truck....to prevent Knock Re**** which in turn takes out timing which means power is lost :thanks:
 
Finally! Youve got to be the first person Ive seen that understands this. Thats why I have to use it in my truck....to prevent Knock Re**** which in turn takes out timing which means power is lost :thanks:

My wife has a 2004 Lexus RX 330. She has always put premium in it until she met me. I noticed the gas cap doesn't say "premium fuel only", and right there in the owner's manual it says 87 or better. It's the older engine before Lexus started requiring premium. So I'd say for a good 5 years and 65,000 miles, she spent close to $1,000 more than she should have at 30 more cents per gallon. And since I switched her back to regular, no decrease in gas mileage or anything else either.
 
More holes? Sure, all you need is more surface area, but K&N filters are designed to fit in the OEM space so there is a limit to how much surface area you can get into that space and there aren't any secret ways to fold more surface area than the OEM filter has already got. So that leaves changing the filter medium from something restrictive like the OEM filter to something less restrictive like the K&N filter, which has bigger holes and relies on a film of oil to capture particulates in the air.

You don't need more surface area to have more holes. You just need a stronger material that will allow more holes without deforming. I don't want to get into an argument here, I can see your point also. And I'm not a K&N fan boy, I've only ever had one and it came with a FMIC kit.
 
You don't need more surface area to have more holes. You just need a stronger material that will allow more holes without deforming.

Let's try this again...

Let's say you have a surface area of 10 square inches. In order to get more holes into the same surface area, no matter what the medium is, you have to make smaller holes. There is a finite number of holes that can be made in that surface area, just as the minimum number of holes is one.

Obviously one big hole is not going to restrict air flow. As you add holes, they necessarily have to be be smaller, which will restrict airflow relative to one big hole. Now, as you point out, you run into a problem with the medium being strong enough to hold together but let's (for the sake of argument) assume that the medium will NEVER break no matter how many holes you put into it. Eventually, and this is where physics comes into the deal, you will reach a point where they filter reduces air flow simply because of the size of the holes will not allow the gas molecules to pass through except in single file.

Now, in the real world, you get to that point long before the number of holes weaken the medium to the failure point. The reason that OEM filters restrict more than aftermarket (like K&N) filters is because the holes are much smaller, not because there are too few of them. If they tried to add more holes, they would have to be smaller than the holes in the OEM filters (especially Toyota filters, as they use fiber filters rather than the paper kind with holes in the 120-130 um range) which would further restrict airflow, but for a very practical reason... the very contaminants that the filter is trying to keep out would clog those smaller holes very quickly. So there is a practical limit to how small the holes can be before you literally starve the engine of air.

The other way to add more holes is to increase the surface area, which is why most filters are folded into pleats. More pleats gives you more surface area but even that has a practical limit as you can only fold things so many time before you effectively turn it into a brick.

Keep in mind, every bit of technology in an IC engine is 100 years old. Engineers have refined it, found better way to control it, and made it more efficient but they haven't fundamentally changed it because there are practical limits to what can and can't be accomplished using that technology. Air filters have been pored over by engineers for decades in the search for that perfect balance and aside from advances in filter media, we've hit the wall as far as air filtration goes.
 
As I said before, I get what you are saying, I just don't agree with the assumptions you're making. K&N filters aren't a paper filter and while they look the same they don't necessarily work the the same.
I give up. You either can't comprehend compound sentences or you just refuse to pay attention. I am not making assumptions, I never said K&N filter were paper, and I'm done trying to educate you. Enjoy your ignorance.
 
I give up. You either can't comprehend compound sentences or you just refuse to pay attention. I am not making assumptions, I never said K&N filter were paper, and I'm done trying to educate you. Enjoy your ignorance.

:iagree: Can't argue with physics. Well you can try, but you'll fail.
 
I agree. I wasn't aware we had so many "experts" around here on this subject. :barf:

I guess anyone who has taken a high school physics class is obviously more qualified to speak about K&N filters than their design engineers. Has anyone actually seen any air filter specifications or requirements from Toyota?

I see a lot of speculation and big words being thrown out without much substance behind them. I am an engineer and, while I won't pretend to be an expert on this subject, I recognize that there is a more to it than some people on here seem to think.

You aren't an expert on this subject and yet you feel qualified to cast doubt on the facts other people have put forth? Based on what? Your own qualifications? What would those be exactly? Your degree in engineering? what field of engineering? And where are the K&N design engineers making any comments on this?

The standard required for ALL OEM air filtration is in ISO 5011. If you go to K&N's "Facts" page, you'll see they provide a lot of comparisons and reassurances that are designed to sell you their filters, not provide comparison data to OEM filters. If you want a real comparison, try this site or just take the word of people who have taken the time to study these specific applications.

The bottom line is that K&N filters are surgical cotton, encased between two mesh screens and coated in oil. They depend on the oil alone to capture debris so that the larger holes can allow more air to pass. Larger holes means more debris gets past the filter. More debris means more wear on the moving parts, reducing engine life for the dubious increase in horsepower that is infrequently used. This isn't rocket science nor is it an assumption.
 
K&N vs. TRD

I'm curious - I see quite a few people who are concerned about the K&N filter letting more debris into the engine than the OEM filter - is this the same for the TRD filter? In pictures they look like they have a similar set up (however I have not seen a TRD filter in person). Would you have the same concerns with the use of a TRD filter once it comes out (setting aside the fact that TRD and Toyota would probably back the TRD filter where they would most likely blame the K&N for any problems that may arise)? I used a K&N in my prior 4Runner without problems and was going to get one for my new one but now I have concerns after reading all these posts.
 
I created this thread to notify everyone that K&N has released an aftermarket filter for the 2010 4Runner and how to get it. I did not know it would turn into a pissing contest.

Those discussing K&N or air filter engineering should create a new one or PM each other. I believe this thread has served its purpose, and I would like a moderator to please lock it.
 
. I believe this thread has served its purpose, and I would like a moderator to please lock it.

I personally would like to see it continue. I appreciate that you let us know that it is now available (since I never received my e-mail update either), but I do like to hear how good/bad they are from others. As more people join they might be able to provide more great info, such as 'seattlemike' has to this thread. I was going to get one, but now I am question it, do I go with the TRD instead since it is a Toyota part, less likely to give me crap for it, etc. Obviously not up to me in the end, but just my opinion :)
 
I give up. You either can't comprehend compound sentences or you just refuse to pay attention. I am not making assumptions, I never said K&N filter were paper, and I'm done trying to educate you. Enjoy your ignorance.

Now you're just being a baby. Nobody's arguing the math with you. I'm just saying your not an expert on every brand of air filter. Either you're purposely ignoring what I'm saying or I'm clearly not alone in my ignorance.

Have fun getting the last word.
 

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