Need help with mysterious major oil leak

[Outrider]

And there was no oil trails under your camshaft seals?

The areas that you can see the VC gasket are right above the exhaust manifold correct?

Didn't see any oil trails anywhere.

Yep - on the VC gasket. I would think I would see fresh oil just outside of the gaskets if there was a leak, but there are areas that I can't see without taking off the plenum and other stuff. But I will be replacing the plenum gaskets when I replace the cam plugs. I will also replace the PCV valve and VC grommets when I do all of that. I hope I don't discover something else then, but I probably will.

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

The cam covers are at the rear of each valve body. They are held in with a "bridge" with two bolts. You have to remove the two bolts, remove the "bridge" and you can reach in and grab the covers and pull them out. Clean up the grooves they sit in and clean them up as well. Use FIPG to reseal and torque to factory specs.

Wow, you can eat off of that valvetrain! Very nice.

What is your oil change schedule and type of oil Bama?

 

[Outrider]

Below is a list of what I am about to order. Can anyone think of any additions, related to the oil leak problem in this thread?

2 rear camshaft rear plug seals

2 valve cover gaskets

1 PCV valve (preventative, and could be the cause of my smokey exhaust)

16 valve cover grommets (not causing a leak, but I should have replaced them)

2 intake plenum gaskets (not related to oil leak, but need to be replaced anyway)

 

[BamaDrewski]

Wow, you can eat off of that valvetrain! Very nice.

What is your oil change schedule and type of oil Bama?

Unfortunately, that is not a photo of my rig. Just pulled one off the internet to illustrate the location....(wish that was mine)

I run Mobil1 10W-30 and change it every 7 thousand miles......have 306.5K+ on the original engine, transmission, cv axles, etc.

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

Below is a list of what I am about to order. Can anyone think of any additions, related to the oil leak problem in this thread?

2 rear camshaft rear plug seals

2 valve cover gaskets

1 PCV valve (preventative, and could be the cause of my smokey exhaust)

16 valve cover grommets (not causing a leak, but I should have replaced them)

2 intake plenum gaskets (not related to oil leak, but need to be replaced anyway)

I think you said you did the spark plug tube seals so your good there.

A grommet for the PCV.

 

[Outrider]

I think you said you did the spark plug tube seals so your good there.

A grommet for the PCV.

Good call, but I replaced that grommet when I did the timing belt a few weeks ago. I discovered that putting it back together, and that grommet was toast.

I wouldn't put new VC gaskets in there again so soon, but if one got kinked (and possibly adding to the leak), then that' a risk I don't want to take.

 

[Outrider]

Update: My parts arrived today. Taking things apart now to replace the VC gaskets (again), VC grommets, the camshaft plug seals, and PCV valve.

It would be a long, separate post to describe how I got this thing down off of jackstands, without a running engine and without help. Sometimes I am stupid, and sometimes I am clever. I did not want to be doing the work I am beginning now while standing on a stepstool because the thing was up on jackstands. When I put it on them, I did not foresee doing all of this, and only did that to make it easier to remove the skidplates, and be able to really look up into my engine from below to identify the leak. Next thing I knew, the timing cover and other things were off, so I couldn't crank it up and back it down the ramps.

I bought this thing almost 10 years ago with 106k on it, and if I get this fixed, I will semi-retire it to only utility duty, and drive it for another 10 years.

I will update my findings after I finish this (tons and tons of cleaning to do after I get it back together). My fingers, toes, eyes and nuts are crossed for good luck that this fixes the leak.

 

[Outrider]

Update to my update.

I discovered the cause of the massive white cloud this thing farted after my timing belt replacement: Upon removing the intake manifold, there is a significant amount of oil in all 6 tubes. This was not there during my timing belt replacement. I am rattled now and not thinking too clearly.

What, during a timing belt change, could cause oil to go into the intake manifold?

There is no fresh oil in the tube from the PCV valve to the manifold. No fresh oil in any of the other rubber tubes I disconnected to remove the manifold. How could a large amount of oil get in the manifold?

 

[Outrider]

Could it possibly be that I mixed up the 2 hoses that go into the back of the throttle body (shown in the red oval)? They are different sizes, so I don't really think I mixed them up. I don't see any other way for oil to get in there. The most downstream one of the openings from those 2 holes into the throttle body has some oil right behind it, as if the oil came in through there. It's hard to see that in my picture of the throttle body opening.

Could it be a major coincidence that my head gasket happened to fail during a timing belt replacement?

Edited to add: I am racking my old brain trying to figure this out. Just for reference, when I checked my oil level a little while back, and had to add about 4 oz because of this leak, I forgot to put the oil filler cap back on. I discovered this after a short drive. No oil blew out of the filler opening. Is there any way the cap being off could have caused oil to be sucked into my manifold, due to pressurization (or lack thereof)? Normally, I wouldn't even mention this, but I am out of clues, and including all information I can think of, hoping someone here will recognize something.

 

[Outrider]

Regarding my post above, is there any chance this was just a fluke, and my PCV valve happened to fart a bunch of oil into my manifold, coincidentally at a really odd time like this? As you can see, there is probably a teaspoon of oil in each of the 6 intake tubes. I realize it's normal for a little to go in there, but this seems excessive, plus I had that huge plume of white smoke on startup a little while back.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

When you say farted do you mean a lean backfire coming out of the intake?

To me if oil gets into the intake it's from blow bye pressurizing the crankcase, oil windage, or a bad PCV.

To much oil windage will cause the PCV to suck up the oil mist and deposit it into the intake.


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[Outrider]

When you say farted do you mean a lean backfire coming out of the intake?

To me if oil gets into the intake it's from blow bye pressurizing the crankcase, oil windage, or a bad PCV.

To much oil windage will cause the PCV to suck up the oil mist and deposit it into the intake.


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This has been a long thread of mine about a mysterious oil leak, with my update added this afternoon. I mentioned "farting" twice. The first time I mentioned it, I was referring to a huge plume of white smoke coming out of the exhaust upon starting the engine. The second time I mentioned it, I was asking if the PCV valve could, out of the blue, dump a significant quantity of oil into the intake manifold.

I am not familiar with oil windage, and there haven't been any backfires.

 

[spartacus]

[QUOTE=aerobat66;3141845The second time I mentioned it, I was asking if the PCV valve could, out of the blue, dump a significant quantity of oil into the intake manifold.


The pcv valve relieves the pressure in the motor. The pressurized gases also contain oil vapor which is burnt off in the intake which is the grimy oily stuff deposited in the plenum. Blow by can cause significant oil to be deposited into the manifold or unusually high pressure in the engine like sludge build up or other mechanical issues.

pcv= positive crank case ventilation.

 

[Outrider]

Yep - I knew what PCV stands for, and that it ventilates, but I am unfamiliar with how the whole crankcase ventilation system works. I was wondering if something caused enough of a pressure imbalance to have allowed probably several teaspoons of oil to go into each of the 6 manifold tubes. Maybe something like me accidentally leaving the oil filler cap off for a short trip, after topping off my previously leaking oil?

I wouldn't be concerned with seeing some grimy junk in there, but a large quantity of fresh oil (and a huge temporary plume of white smoke from my exhaust) tells me that something went drastically wrong.

 

[spartacus]

Yep - I knew what PCV stands for, and that it ventilates, but I am unfamiliar with how the whole crankcase ventilation system works. I was wondering if something caused enough of a pressure imbalance to have allowed probably several teaspoons of oil to go into each of the 6 manifold tubes. Maybe something like me accidentally leaving the oil filler cap off for a short trip, after topping off my previously leaking oil?

I wouldn't be concerned with seeing some grimy junk in there, but a large quantity of fresh oil (and a huge temporary plume of white smoke from my exhaust) tells me that something went drastically wrong.

there is no pressure in the crankcase only in the intake manifold so I don't think leaving the cap off would be the cause.

 

[Outrider]

there is no pressure in the crankcase only in the intake manifold so I don't think leaving the cap off would be the cause.

I was hoping that would have been the cause. The mystery deepens. This is maddening, trying to figure out. Something is seriously wrong, and I see no clues as to what it is.

I went through junk like this back when almost all signs pointed to a blown head gasket being the cause of a running problem. That turned out to be one single bad injector.

This vehicle has been pretty good to me for nearly 10 years, but I am really tired of this weird stuff going on, and tired of the massive amount of time I have spent figuring out and fixing these weird and stupid problems. I have a long list of those problems.

 

[spartacus]

I was hoping that would have been the cause. The mystery deepens. This is maddening, trying to figure out. Something is seriously wrong, and I see no clues as to what it is.

I went through junk like this back when almost all signs pointed to a blown head gasket being the cause of a running problem. That turned out to be one single bad injector.

This vehicle has been pretty good to me for nearly 10 years, but I am really tired of this weird stuff going on, and tired of the massive amount of time I have spent figuring out and fixing these weird and stupid problems. I have a long list of those problems.

I know the frustration and how you feel. I have a high mileage 3rd gen too.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

Get a PCV catch can and see how much it collects. Then you'll know if there is an engine problem or not.

If your passenger side valve cover is clogged with coked oil in the PCV passage and baffle then it will really restrict the effectiveness of the entire PCV system. If you see crunchies in the PCV hole it's a good sign it's crapped up in there.

On my Saturn I replaced the PCV valve with a fixed orifious one. It's basically a metal piece with a 1/8" hole in it. It always pulls a vacuum on the crank case.


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[Outrider]

Get a PCV catch can and see how much it collects. Then you'll know if there is an engine problem or not.

If your passenger side valve cover is clogged with coked oil in the PCV passage and baffle then it will really restrict the effectiveness of the entire PCV system. If you see crunchies in the PCV hole it's a good sign it's crapped up in there.

On my Saturn I replaced the PCV valve with a fixed orifious one. It's basically a metal piece with a 1/8" hole in it. It always pulls a vacuum on the crank case.


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Thanks - I will pursue that once I get it back together, running, and hopefully not leaking oil anymore, if I still get white smoke and a loss of oil.

Right now, I am finishing up replacing the VC gaskets again, cam plugs, and I re-sealed the half moon plugs. This is a process of elimination thing trying to stop the oil leak that I never positively identified. After this, at least I will know that it is not coming from the VC areas. Once I get it back together, I will spend another chunk of time removing all of the oil all over the bottom of the engine and chassis (again), and if the leak persists, maybe I can narrow it down. I tried that the last approach, but it all got covered again in short order before I could locate where it is coming from.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

Thanks - I will pursue that once I get it back together, running, and hopefully not leaking oil anymore, if I still get white smoke and a loss of oil.



Right now, I am finishing up replacing the VC gaskets again, cam plugs, and I re-sealed the half moon plugs. This is a process of elimination thing trying to stop the oil leak that I never positively identified. After this, at least I will know that it is not coming from the VC areas. Once I get it back together, I will spend another chunk of time removing all of the oil all over the bottom of the engine and chassis (again), and if the leak persists, maybe I can narrow it down. I tried that the last approach, but it all got covered again in short order before I could locate where it is coming from.

If you have the valve covers off soak the passenger side valve cover in a pan of anything that is a major solvent. Like diesel, kero, mineral spirits, acetone, etc and soak it for a while in a sealed container. If you have it apart clean out the PCV baffle area now.


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