New to Toyota and elockers

[wfo9]

The ATRAC is pretty darn good. It gets the job done in most situations, but it still does not compare to mechanical lockers. There are situations where it works better than a mechanical locker (slick off camber climbs where lockers tend to crab the vehicle bad), but there are probably many more situations where the mechanical locker is much better (mainly because of the predictability at slow speeds, and the ATRAC simply does not work at high wheel speeds). ATRAC more or less has a mind of its own, but you learn how to work within its sweet spot. It's nice because it is much less stress on the drive line compared to a locker. When I'm out on difficult trails I tend keep ATRAC on and flip on my rear locker when I get to significant obstacles. The front only gets turned on when I need absolute control of the front wheels crawling up on a steep ledge...

Overall, the toyota e-lockers seem pretty good. They don't always engage immediately... and there is some built in limitation out of the box that only allows ATRAC and the locker to work together below 4mph... (this can be hacked though...).

I have seen quite a few FJs and 4th gens blow up rear diffs with the e-locker engaged, but the 5th gens have a slightly stronger setup (called an 8.2 vs an 8.0). I have not witnessed an 8.2 letting go yet. Same with the 5th gen front CV axles, they seem stronger, but time will tell for sure.

 

[wfo9]

Anyhow, electric lockers seem smoother, and more reliable then the air ones from my experience. You know ARBs, freakin leak all the time. My 1996 Montero stock locker leaks from the old seal in the diff when its cold, and I have had ARBs do that. Could still have a short, but I think its less likely.

ARB is the most proven and reliable locker in the world. They don't leak when installed properly and work better than any other selectable locker out there. They are extremely well engineered and assembled.... I know there are fans and detractors.... But if you ask anyone who has a recent revision... pretty much 0 problems. And any 5th gen or 120 platform owner who has one in the front with the e-locker in the rear will tell you they wish they had an ARB on both ends.

 

[wfo9]

And I just thought of another question. Will 16" wheels fit the 5th gen? Or is there a clearance issue with the calipers?

Thanks- Bart

Technically, you can make them fit, but it requires large wheel spacers to clear the caliper and is not recommended for the wheel bearings....

 

[FordyceCreek]

ARBs are very well built, no doubt. But they do leak in the diff in cold conditions, or if seals dry out with age. The miles of air line gets melted, pinched, dried out, ect. Compressors fail, leak, short out.(an ARB one exploded in my face, although there compressors have gotten better) I own an ARB and have owned a bunch of them, but I still believe the E locker will be more reliable.

One reason I never considered a Toyota 4x4 prior to the Gen 5 4 Runner was simply durability, its the first that I believe can hold up to my off-road punishment long term with out ridiculous amounts of upgrades to start. Stronger diffs and frame are a part of that, I believe the older diffs were too weak, and saw that in person as well, including an Epic Sierra Nevada disaster. Driven Monteros for my entire life and never seen a diff blow, that was the reliability I was looking for.(with a better engine LOL) FJ's blew through diffs like crazy, but those were determined to be defective Mexican diffs and was worked out eventually.

 

[Land_Shark]

defective Mexican diffs.

That's just funny.

 

[Jetboy]

ARB is the most proven and reliable locker in the world. They don't leak when installed properly and work better than any other selectable locker out there. They are extremely well engineered and assembled.... I know there are fans and detractors.... But if you ask anyone who has a recent revision... pretty much 0 problems. And any 5th gen or 120 platform owner who has one in the front with the e-locker in the rear will tell you they wish they had an ARB on both ends.

I would respectfully disagree on the reliability. I have seen many air lockers fail on the trails. Whether it be air leaks, valve failures, compressor failure, or just ripping the air lines off, they have way too many failure points. I don't think anyone I know has had an ARB last more than about 10 years without seals leaking. That's the huge downside. On a Toyota axle it's easy enough to pull the diff and do a re-build. On a D44 - it's a nightmare. Would you swap back to a carburetor? Vacuum advance ignition? I don't see any good reason to accept air actuation in a differential either. Electric servos are just a lot more reliable than air.

There's a lot to love about ARBs as well - fast actuation, strong, quality manufacturing, and wide availability for many applications. I'm very surprised that ARB hasn't updated them in 20+ years to electric operation. For now they are basically the only easy and readily available option for the front.

 

[Jetboy]

One reason I never considered a Toyota 4x4 prior to the Gen 5 4 Runner was simply durability, its the first that I believe can hold up to my off-road punishment long term with out ridiculous amounts of upgrades to start. Stronger diffs and frame are a part of that, I believe the older diffs were too weak, and saw that in person as well, including an Epic Sierra Nevada disaster. Driven Monteros for my entire life and never seen a diff blow, that was the reliability I was looking for.(with a better engine LOL) FJ's blew through diffs like crazy, but those were determined to be defective Mexican diffs and was worked out eventually.

That's an odd statement. I don't know of any monteros that are built for serious offroad duty. So I assume you're talking stock? If that's the case, it's not really off-road abuse in the sense I'm thinking of. I think the FJcruiser was an anomaly.

Show me a Montero that does this on stock axles - if what you're doing is harder on a vehicle than this, I want to see some pics!:
<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/h2gzkUqqlnk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/1CAKiqQHvxY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[wfo9]

I would respectfully disagree on the reliability. I have seen many air lockers fail on the trails. Whether it be air leaks, valve failures, compressor failure, or just ripping the air lines off, they have way too many failure points. I don't think anyone I know has had an ARB last more than about 10 years without seals leaking. That's the huge downside. On a Toyota axle it's easy enough to pull the diff and do a re-build. On a D44 - it's a nightmare. Would you swap back to a carburetor? Vacuum advance ignition? I don't see any good reason to accept air actuation in a differential either. Electric servos are just a lot more reliable than air.

There's a lot to love about ARBs as well - fast actuation, strong, quality manufacturing, and wide availability for many applications. I'm very surprised that ARB hasn't updated them in 20+ years to electric operation. For now they are basically the only easy and readily available option for the front.

Here is my opinion, each has their own pros and cons. I'm not saying e-lockers are junk... but this BS about ARBs constantly failing on the trail.. almost always points back to operator or installation error.

First off, the ARB casing and gears are almost indestructible. That does not make up for a weak ring, pinion gear, or axle shaft.. but its nice to know it will never be the weak link in the system.

To me, engagement is key. ARBs are designed for racing applications so the locker can be instantly engaged. It's hard (if not impossible) to get that type of engagement with an electrical servo. There is a reason big rigs use air for brakes... The instant and high force engagement is not really needed for a trail rig, but it ends up being a reliability advantage since many selectable lockers are damaged and eventually fail because of users assuming they are engaged when they are not quite there yet... I'm sure this is why ARB continues to use and improve on this proven design.

If your ARB is setup correctly, you will clearly know if you have any air leaks... If you hear the compressor running after engagement then it is time to do some troubleshooting. It's like having a canary built into the system.

I will admit that I'm not the most experienced wheeler out there, really only been doing this for a few years... So I may see it differently in 10 years...

I have seen 1 diff fail running an ARB. This person had a janky setup where their compressor was constantly running when the locker was engaged. I told them that is not normal.., and they just said "it's always done that" and kept wheeling it. Sure enough, when the diff blew up this person was telling everyone what junk ARB lockers are and how they would never run one again... They were running a 20 year old compressor that looked like it had be sitting under water for a few years...

 

[bartvonwolf]

The only issue I had while running ARBs in my Trooper, was the siphon effect from the rear diff that forced gear oil back up the lines and out the solenoid at the compressor. This started happening immediately after the install and when I looked this up online, there were loads of threads about the same problem from just about every ARB application out there. I actually called ARB USA and they sent me the little device that holds pressure in the line, forget what they are called. Anyway, they sent it for free, which imo is an obvious admission of the defect. Now, my Trooper is a 1991 and I read that a lot of the ARBs for older application axles had this issue, but new application ARBs are free from the problem. Anyway, my point is, this is the only issue I ever had with my ARBs.

Thanks for all the replies. This has been an interesting and informative discussion.

Bart

 

[jwkilgore]

There's a lot to love about ARBs as well - fast actuation, strong, quality manufacturing, and wide availability for many applications. I'm very surprised that ARB hasn't updated them in 20+ years to electric operation. For now they are basically the only easy and readily available option for the front.

Harrup has an elocker for the rear. I read somewhere that they also have one for the front, but I couldn't find it on their web site just now. The prices look scary, but remember that those are in AU dollars. Even if they exist I don't know if they meet the "easy and readily available" requirement.
https://www.harrop.com.au/shop/4x4-...locker-toyota-hilux-prado-4runner-landcruiser

 

[Jetboy]

It's just really really hard to make an air tight pressure seal to a rotating steel cylinder that will last a long time. It's hard enough to make an oil seal with no pressure. Give it a few years and see if you still like it.

You could still use air if you wanted the speed with an external air piston to actuate a shift collar. That's what Mercedes uses in the Unimog axles. We can make transmissions shift almost instantly - should be able to make differentials shift pretty quickly with electronics too. I would think the electromagnet internal lockers are almost instant, but I've never owned one. The new Tacoma uses a totally new locker design with internal magnet locking. I think we'll have to get some reviews to see how fast it is.

 

[flyinhawaiian01]

I would respectfully disagree on the reliability. I have seen many air lockers fail on the trails. Whether it be air leaks, valve failures, compressor failure, or just ripping the air lines off, they have way too many failure points. I don't think anyone I know has had an ARB last more than about 10 years without seals leaking. .

I'm on 9 years on mine, and I believe I have around 45k on the truck since its been in. Not a ton of wheelin' though, at least not in the last 4 or so years. I still turn it on and cycle it every now and then.

Guess I'm lucky this time 'round!!!:rockon:

 

[jwkilgore]

Harrup has an elocker for the rear. I read somewhere that they also have one for the front, but I couldn't find it on their web site just now. The prices look scary, but remember that those are in AU dollars. Even if they exist I don't know if they meet the "easy and readily available" requirement.
https://www.harrop.com.au/shop/4x4-...locker-toyota-hilux-prado-4runner-landcruiser

I was curious, so I contacted Harrop on the front e-locker. They replied that they didn't know if the model they had for the Tacoma/FJ/Hilux/Prado would fit the 4Runner front diff. I was under the impression that it was the same one, an 8" reverse clamshell, but I don't have part numbers to confirm. Does anyone have the official Toyota designation for our front differential, or know if it's the same as the one in the 2nd Gen Tacoma and the FJ? [MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION]?

It's this one: https://www.harrop.com.au/shop/4x4-...r-prado-120-150-hilux-fj-cruiser-tacoma-front
A similar one is available for factory 3.73 gearing.

 

[BLACK-FL4RUNNER]

Holy Hell that's Expensive!

Has anyone just welded the spiders in the front diff instead?
It's got the passenger side disconnect, so beside it spinning the front drive shaft all the time, it shouldn't hurt anything, right?

 

[bartvonwolf]

Holy Hell that's Expensive!

Has anyone just welded the spiders in the front diff instead?
It's got the passenger side disconnect, so beside it spinning the front drive shaft all the time, it shouldn't hurt anything, right?

I would think on the older T4Rs with open front diffs, sure, but with all the electronic doo-dads in the 5th gen, AWD features and ABS, it would likely cause issues if you welded the front end.

Bart

 

[BLACK-FL4RUNNER]

I would think on the older T4Rs with open front diffs, sure, but with all the electronic doo-dads in the 5th gen, AWD features and ABS, it would likely cause issues if you welded the front end.

Bart

I would think it would behave fine in the non-AWD models.
It would essentially be "open" when in 2wd because of the passenger side disconnect. When in 4wd it should work fine with A-trac, as both front wheels would be turning the same speed and not need to actuate the brakes.
Just wasn't sure if someone has already done it or not....

 

[bartvonwolf]

Perhaps, I simply don't know enough about these new rigs to really say for sure. But yeah, in theory.

Bart

 

[TheWraith]

Holy Hell that's Expensive!

Has anyone just welded the spiders in the front diff instead?
It's got the passenger side disconnect, so beside it spinning the front drive shaft all the time, it shouldn't hurt anything, right?

$1700 ain't bad for a elocker... if your plan is to stay with ifs.

 

[BLACK-FL4RUNNER]

I'm cheap. lol
I'll take a Lincoln Locker for free if someone else says they've done it and it worked good for on and off road.

 

[jwkilgore]

$1700 ain't bad for a elocker... if your plan is to stay with ifs.

Again, that's $1700 Australian, and it's MSRP. That's currently about $1200 US. I don't know if "street price" is MSRP, and there may or may not be other charges.

ARB lockers list for about $1000-US each, plus you have to install an air system and run and maintain air lines. But if you're going to install on-board air anyway, then you can save a little money with ARB.

Add in labor costs and extras (you'll probably want higher gears installed at the same time) and you're looking at $3-$4k for either system. :wow:

Unless you're regularly doing serious off-roading, the factory A-Trac is looking pretty good.