No crank, no start issue, water

[Hungryhawk]

No start

Lots of good advice here. It seems to be electrical to me too. I have been fooled by corroded cables to starter from battery. And ground cables from battery to frame.

My experience was an internally corroded positive cable that carried enough voltage for lights but failed to carry starter amps.

If your whole starter ststem is original perhaps replacing inexpensive parts first makes sense.

 

[chester4Run]

Lots of good advice here. It seems to be electrical to me too. I have been fooled by corroded cables to starter from battery. And ground cables from battery to frame.

My experience was an internally corroded positive cable that carried enough voltage for lights but failed to carry starter amps.

If your whole starter ststem is original perhaps replacing inexpensive parts first makes sense.

Yep, definitely started there. All contacts have been cleaned and reconnected to the starter, and starter is verified good. It turns over when I short the appropriate pins at the relay. I need to figure out why the relay isn’t receiving appropriate voltage to trigger the starter. I’m leaning toward the ECU at this point.

Two other ECU bad indicators:

1. I get no CEL to verify it works when I turn on the ignition. Can anyone verify theirs light up momentarily without starting the engine?

2. Neither of my OBD2 readers will link. They get power, but can’t seem to find anything to talk to.

 

[AuSeeker]

AuSeeker, you're a rock star. I missed this and it's exactly what I was looking for. I followed along and verified my starter is good by shorting the two relay pins closest to the driver's side fender. I checked for power at the inside 7.5a fuse and found 13v there, so ignition switch seems good.

Now for the last pin on the relay -- this is my issue I think. I checked voltage between the ground pin and that pin (so the two pins furthest from the drivers fender) while the ignition was turned to crank the starter, and found 6.5v. Second oddity, is that 6.5v stays there after the ignition switch is released, which I wouldn't expect. I think I should see 12v here -- can anyone confirm?

So at this point I'm looking for a wiring diagram showing how power gets here. From what is described here, that voltage issue could be a bad transmission interlock (N versus P makes no difference to the problem) or a bad ECU. I'd expect bad interlock to provide 0v. I've seen at least one post in my digging where a failed ECU showed low voltage on these pins, but I'm only guessing at this point that 12v is what I should see.

Thoughts and ideas welcome, and thanks again to AuSeeker for the video link.

I don't know what the voltage should be at the relay....BUT in case the lower voltage you're seeing is correct, did you rule out that the relay itself is good or bad??

I do however know a relay is a switch, so power is not sent directly from the ignition switch to the starter, the relay does that, the ignition triggers the relay, since when you jumped the 2 pins together it made the starter engage, so you have the correct voltage to get the starter to function, the lower voltage could be what triggers the relay to connect/switch on the two legs to send power to the starter.

Try swapping out the starter relay with either a new one or even better another of the same type from the fuse panel, in the video it seems there are 3 right there together that all look to be the same, you'll have to look at the numbers on them to verify that.

 

[chester4Run]

I don't know what the voltage should be at the relay....BUT in case the lower voltage you're seeing is correct, did you rule out that the relay itself is good or bad??

I do however know a relay is a switch, so power is not sent directly from the ignition switch to the starter, the relay does that, the ignition triggers the relay, since when you jumped the 2 pins together it made the starter engage, so you have the correct voltage to get the starter to function, the lower voltage could be what triggers the relay to connect/switch on the two legs to send power to the starter.

Try swapping out the starter relay with either a new one or even better another of the same type from the fuse panel, in the video it seems there are 3 right there together that all look to be the same, you'll have to look at the numbers on them to verify that.

Thanks,I should have mentioned that I swapped the fog relay with the start relay. Fogs work with the start relay, but no change with the starter. What I didn’t think to do is check the voltage used to trigger the fog relay since that’s working. On the list for today.

 

[Buckaroo]

Wiring diagram and detail on starter cranking circuit attached. CEL should light and "prove out" when igntion switch is turned on - inspection procedure attached. Inspection procedure for ignition switch attached.

 

[chester4Run]

Wiring diagram and detail on starter cranking circuit attached. CEL should light and "prove out" when igntion switch is turned on - inspection procedure attached. Inspection procedure for ignition switch attached.

Awesome Buckaroo, thank you!

 

[Buckaroo]

Locations for Wiring Connectors, Junction Blocks and Park/Neutral Switch might help you.

 

[chester4Run]

Ok, after reading through the documentation Buckaroo provided, I see those relay pins should be 9-14v. I confirmed that by checking the same pins for fog relay and they sit at battery voltage when on.

It’s ECU time. I’ll get it out this weekend and see if I can source a programmed replacement. From a quick look there appear to be two modules behind the glove box, left of the cabin air filter. I think the one I need to replace is nearer the air filter, but should be able to confirm with what Buckaroo provided.

Thanks again everybody!

 

[Buckaroo]

Ok, after reading through the documentation Buckaroo provided, I see those relay pins should be 9-14v. I confirmed that by checking the same pins for fog relay and they sit at battery voltage when on.

It’s ECU time. I’ll get it out this weekend and see if I can source a programmed replacement. From a quick look there appear to be two modules behind the glove box, left of the cabin air filter. I think the one I need to replace is nearer the air filter, but should be able to confirm with what Buckaroo provided.

Thanks again everybody!

Lots of work to do before we indict the ECU - don't know how much you have done.

Looking at the starting wiring schematic, I think Pin 5 on that relay housing should have battery voltage all the time. If it doesn't the problem is the battery, fuse (30 amp) or wiring. You can then check the voltage in at the 5 amp fuse after the ignition switch - you should see battery voltage when you turn the switch to start. If you don't, problem is upstream (switch or wiring). If that is good, check the voltage at the ECU in wiring harness Pin 12 and you should see battery voltage when you turn the switch. If not, problem is between Pin 5 on the relay housing and the wiring harness connector to the ECU. If voltage is good, check pin out voltage on ECU - Pin 8 - when you turn the key. I think it should be 5V - if everything up stream checks out and you do not see the 5V, then the issue is your ECU. FYI, never put 12V on any of those pins or signal wires coming out of the ECU - you can smoke it. I didn't look at the T4R Starting Cranking Circuit description I sent you when I wrote this post, I just looked at the wiring schematic but I would expect it to agree with the decision tree laid out in that doc. You should check it and see.

FYI, Pin 1 on the relay housing gets the signal from the ECU and I think it should be 5V (guessing but that is typical ECU signal voltage) when you turn the key if everything between the battery and the relay is OK including the igntion switch, park/neutral switch, two fuses, all the wiring & connectors and the ECU. Every troubleshooting decision tree includes a "replace ECU" at the end because it is the diagnosis of last resort but it is rarely the issue. It is great you have a multimeter and are doing the testing - that's the way it should be done to get to the bottom of this and avoid the cost and suffering of replacing good parts. Good luck and keep the updates coming!

 

[Buckaroo]

Oh - I don't think I've seen it mentioned but you should move that gear selector back and forth in case that park/neutral safety switch is a little out of adjustment. Sorry - one of the first things that should be checked.

 

[chester4Run]

Thanks Backaroo. I did all my ignition circuit testing in both park and neutral, so I think I’ve ruled out the transmission lockout. I attempted the ECM testing as described in the documents, but got 0v most places (I’m away from my notes, I’ll update this later). I wasn’t entirely sure the ECM was powered correctly while I had some connectors unplugged to expose the pins. However, there is no communication on the OBD2 port too. What are your thoughts on whether this also indicate an ECM issue?

Summary: I’ve proved the battery, starter, relay, fuses, and ignition switch are good. I’m confident the transmission lockout isn’t the issue. I’m seeing low voltage on the pins that trigger the starter relay, which are fed by the ECM.

I pulled the ECM this morning and ordered a replacement programmed with the VIN. I haven’t swapped one before, so hopefully this goes smooth and solves the issue.

 

[Buckaroo]

Thanks Backaroo. I did all my ignition circuit testing in both park and neutral, so I think I’ve ruled out the transmission lockout. I attempted the ECM testing as described in the documents, but got 0v most places (I’m away from my notes, I’ll update this later). I wasn’t entirely sure the ECM was powered correctly while I had some connectors unplugged to expose the pins. However, there is no communication on the OBD2 port too. What are your thoughts on whether this also indicate an ECM issue?

Summary: I’ve proved the battery, starter, relay, fuses, and ignition switch are good. I’m confident the transmission lockout isn’t the issue. I’m seeing low voltage on the pins that trigger the starter relay, which are fed by the ECM.

I pulled the ECM this morning and ordered a replacement programmed with the VIN. I haven’t swapped one before, so hopefully this goes smooth and solves the issue.

Sounds like you have done your homework but what is "low voltage" on the relay pins? I've never had to replace an ECU. You are ordering it new? Where are you getting it and what does it cost? Yes, I think the OBD port lack of connectivity is suspicious regarding the ECU. Interested to hear how this turns out. Good luck!

 

[chester4Run]

I was seeing 6.5v on the triggering pins for the start relay, which should have 9-14v to trigger the start relay, which then triggers the starter solenoid.

I ordered an OEM ECM from Flagship One (fs1inc.com). They’re supposed to be tested, updated, and programmed for VIN. Price was $280. I haven’t used them before, so we’ll see.

 

[chester4Run]

Thanks again to everyone for your help. To close out this issue, the replacement ECM solved it. The used ECM came from fs1inc.com in about 1.5 weeks. I'm not sure how their business works, but there is at least one other site with a very similar front-end and exactly the same warranty and policy statements. Reviews are definitely mixed.

The new ECM came with an OBD2 dongle and the process is to hook up the replacement ECM (battery disconnected) then insert the OBD2 dongle, then connect the battery, close all the doors, and turn on the ignition (no start, just on) and let it sit for 30 minutes. I put a charger on my battery too just in case. After 30 minutes the instructions have you turn the ignition off, remove the OBD2 dongle, and then cycle the ignition five times. I noticed a click from the ECM each time. Then start the vehicle. In my case it started up, no lights, no issues. I'll button up the interior and go for a test drive later today.

I still have some work to do related the leak, but this was great progress.

 

[SocalSam]

Thanks again to everyone for your help. To close out this issue, the replacement ECM solved it. The used ECM came from fs1inc.com in about 1.5 weeks. I'm not sure how their business works, but there is at least one other site with a very similar front-end and exactly the same warranty and policy statements. Reviews are definitely mixed.

The new ECM came with an OBD2 dongle and the process is to hook up the replacement ECM (battery disconnected) then insert the OBD2 dongle, then connect the battery, close all the doors, and turn on the ignition (no start, just on) and let it sit for 30 minutes. I put a charger on my battery too just in case. After 30 minutes the instructions have you turn the ignition off, remove the OBD2 dongle, and then cycle the ignition five times. I noticed a click from the ECM each time. Then start the vehicle. In my case it started up, no lights, no issues. I'll button up the interior and go for a test drive later today.

I still have some work to do related the leak, but this was great progress.

Progress indeed. I bought a cheapo ECM from the JY to keep as a spare. When doing my research, I read somewhere that ECM swaps will work for 10 start cycles and then brick because VIN does not match immobilizer system. Internet and my memory are equally unreliable so it is a good idea to talk to a dealer.

EDIT ADD: Never mind. I saw you ordered with VIN. Should be good to go.

 

[chester4Run]

So far the only issue is VSC lights are on. I’ll try the zero-point process tomorrow and see if that solves it. Took it for a short drive today. I’m only at about five starts so far, but will watch for immobilizer issues.

 

[chester4Run]

Just to close out the issue, the zero point calibration solved the VSC lights. I replaced the sunroof with a junk yard unit off ebay with no rust and verified that the drains are both clear. So far so good.

Thanks everybody!