No more 4r's after 1014 ?

[Jayhawk5G]

I'd order one. Make a 4door and a 2door with a truck bed and I'll order one of each.

So basically you two want a Land Rover Defender?

 

[KidVermicious]

I prefer a couple more chainrings than you, but I like the analogy.

I think Toyota could take on the Jeep Wrangler and beat it at it's own game. They tried with the FJ, but they paid too much attention to making it retro and stylish and not enough attention to functional and utilitarian. If they got rid of the retarded design features (stupid bulgy light covers, horrible dash, ugly retro grill, etc) and rethought the sight lines a little bit, I'd order one tomorrow. But there won't be a stripper 4Runner - that's what the FJ was for, and they screwed it up. They'll probably drop the FJ and that'll be that.

 

[KidVermicious]

So basically you two want a Land Rover Defender?

Yah, except for the Land Rover part.

 

[crunchcity]

So, for everyone out there, if Toyota DID kill the 4runner (which includes going to a pathfinder-style CUV) what would you do?

A) Give up and buy a Wrangler?

B) Buy a Tacoma/ Tundra crew cab and throw a shell on it?

C) Buy the new CUV version?

D) Hold on to your current 4r 'til it dies then rebuild it using scrap parts?

E) Buy another American SUV?

I would look at the Wrangler, F150, Tundra, Tacoma (already owned one), maybe even a Tahoe and a few more I can't think of.

 

[1engineer]

Body on frame trucks are dead. Sales are down for all makes and models, and the 4Runner is made in Japan, so it's particularly vulnerable to razor thin profitability. Each year sales have declined rapidly since 2000, which was the bubble burst of the SUV craze. 50k units is a drop in the bucket--not to say that Toyota doesn't have other non-profitable vehicles that also soldier on. But in the grand scheme of things, they sell 7 different SUVs (RAV4, 4Runner, Land Cruiser, Highlander, RX, GX, LX) and 2 more SUV-ish vehicles: the Venza and Matrix Corolla wagon thing. You can't have a product line that wide and not snipe sales from yourself.

Crossovers are the new trend. They are roomier, cheaper, get better gas mileage, and don't drive like trucks. Nearly all have 7 seats/3 rows of seating. The car buying public doesn't want the stigma of a wagon or a minivan, so they get a Crossover. Actual off-road capability doesn't mean much to them when AWD does well enough in the rain, ice, and snow--that's something every Subaru owner (including myself) has known for decades.

On an aside, the 4Runner does well in the parallel universe that is Colorado, Washington and Oregon. Based on visiting those two states you'd think that old Land Cruisers, Subarus, and Toyota trucks/4Runners are the best-selling cars in America. I bought one of the 5 Trails allocated to the Southeast.

3 had already been traded to dealers out of the area...

Man I was going to let you slide on some of the silly comments you have made since you joined (I'm trying to play in the sandbox better) but I have to call you out on this whole post. You apparently have no concept or knowledge of NA markets. I'm going to post some actual data to show everyone the true picture of the automotive market.
Needless to say the BOF truck is not dead. It is very much alive, in fact so much so that it owns three of the top five sales slots and has for years. Yeah, they are trucks (which were your words, not mine) and most are crew cab. Sorta like an SUV with a bed. In one of my graphics you will see the top sellers. Pay attention to what you DO NOT see: No Jeeps, No Tacomas or a lot of well known products.
Here is the NA vehicle market:

 

[LandCruiser]

Man I was going to let you slide on some of the silly comments you have made since you joined (I'm trying to play in the sandbox better) but I have to call you out on this whole post. You apparently have no concept or knowledge of NA markets. I'm going to post some actual data to show everyone the true picture of the automotive market.
Needless to say the BOF truck is not dead. It is very much alive, in fact so much so that it owns three of the top five sales slots and has for years. Yeah, they are trucks (which were your words, not mine) and most are crew cab. Sorta like an SUV with a bed. In one of my graphics you will see the top sellers. Pay attention to what you DO NOT see: No Jeeps, No Tacomas or a lot of well known products.
Here is the NA vehicle market:

I really make a huge distinction between a BOF SUV (4runner, Tahoe) and a BOF pickup (F150, RAM, Chevy/GMC Twins). Full size BOF pickups made by the Big 3 will never die, but we're talking about BOF SUVs which have been seeing dwindling sales since crossovers came about.

It's not "sorta like an SUV with a bed." It's a pickup, and a different market segment altogether--one dominated by American vehicles. It's great that the Big 3 pickups aren't going anywhere, they haven't for 50 years. That doesn't mean jack when you want to buy a BOF off road Japanese vehicle like the 4Runner.

BTW, have you tried to wheel a 240 inch long, 6000 pound vehicle on a narrow trail lately?

 

[1engineer]

Body on frame trucks are dead. Sales are down for all makes and models, and the 4Runner is made in Japan, so it's particularly vulnerable to razor thin profitability. Each year sales have declined rapidly since 2000, which was the bubble burst of the SUV craze. 50k units is a drop in the bucket--not to say that Toyota doesn't have other non-profitable vehicles that also soldier on. But in the grand scheme of things, they sell 7 different SUVs (RAV4, 4Runner, Land Cruiser, Highlander, RX, GX, LX) and 2 more SUV-ish vehicles: the Venza and Matrix Corolla wagon thing. You can't have a product line that wide and not snipe sales from yourself.

Crossovers are the new trend. They are roomier, cheaper, get better gas mileage, and don't drive like trucks. Nearly all have 7 seats/3 rows of seating. The car buying public doesn't want the stigma of a wagon or a minivan, so they get a Crossover. Actual off-road capability doesn't mean much to them when AWD does well enough in the rain, ice, and snow--that's something every Subaru owner (including myself) has known for decades.

On an aside, the 4Runner does well in the parallel universe that is Colorado, Washington and Oregon. Based on visiting those two states you'd think that old Land Cruisers, Subarus, and Toyota trucks/4Runners are the best-selling cars in America. I bought one of the 5 Trails allocated to the Southeast.

3 had already been traded to dealers out of the area...

Alright, I'll quote your post again. If you meant SUV's then don't say trucks.

To most people SUV's are SUV's. They are not CUV's or BOF SUV's, just simply SUV's. Sure BOF SUV sales are down but only because there are many more unibody choices out there now. It has nothing to do with "stigma" and everything to do with what a customer wants.

 

[LandCruiser]

Alright, I'll quote your post again.

Then I apologize for not making distinctions between BOF pickup land barges like the Silverado and proper station wagon BOF "SUV" vehicles like the 4Runner, Xterra, bathtub body BOF vehicles like the Heep (are non AMC jeeps really bathtub body?) and FJ40.

I am used to referring to anything BOF as a truck, but that doesn't change the reality of what has happened to the 4Runner and every other vehicle like it (Explorer, Cherokee, Pathfinder, etc).

 

[JayceeP]

Body on frame trucks are dead. Sales are down for all makes and models, and the 4Runner is made in Japan, so it's particularly vulnerable to razor thin profitability. Each year sales have declined rapidly since 2000, which was the bubble burst of the SUV craze. 50k units is a drop in the bucket--not to say that Toyota doesn't have other non-profitable vehicles that also soldier on. But in the grand scheme of things, they sell 7 different SUVs (RAV4, 4Runner, Land Cruiser, Highlander, RX, GX, LX) and 2 more SUV-ish vehicles: the Venza and Matrix Corolla wagon thing. You can't have a product line that wide and not snipe sales from yourself.

I disagree the BOF is dead. It's simply become a niche market as others have indicated. People can get what they want without BOF. Most people buying BOF actually need it (I personally don't) and the Soccer Mom who still wants a 4x4 SUV-like vehicle can have it all with a Unibody without having to step down to a car- for instance the Ford Explorer looks half decent with the sport/Ltd package. The auto market has simply evolved with more choices.

Also, 50,000 sales is nothing to shake a stick at and 2012 was the highest US volume since 2007. Assuming the factory averages $35,000/unit sold, that represents $1.75 BILLION to Toyota's coffers just on 4Runner sales to the US alone. Can't see them walking away from that kind of cash flow.

 

[eddiebx]

Alright, I'll quote your post again. If you meant SUV's then don't say trucks.

To most people SUV's are SUV's. They are not CUV's or BOF SUV's, just simply SUV's. Sure BOF SUV sales are down but only because there are many more unibody choices out there now. It has nothing to do with "stigma" and everything to do with what a customer wants.

This question has always been on my mind, and it's probably not worth a new thread over so....is it technically improper to refer to our 4runners as "trucks"? I guess when you hear truck the first thing that comes to mind is either a pickup truck or a really large truck, like a UPS truck?

I have trouble referring to it as a truck, but it also doesn't sound right to call it a car, and well...."SU"V is kind of too many syllables

 

[KidVermicious]

My 4Runner is a truck. Yours is an SUV.

 

[LandCruiser]

This question has always been on my mind, and it's probably not worth a new thread over so....is it technically improper to refer to our 4runners as "trucks"? I guess when you hear truck the first thing that comes to mind is either a pickup truck or a really large truck, like a UPS truck?

I have trouble referring to it as a truck, but it also doesn't sound right to call it a car, and well...."SU"V is kind of too many syllables

If it goes off road and has a ladder frame, it's called a truck (at least in the south).

I've rarely referred to SUVs as such, thus lending to the confusion in this thread.

 

[KCcarguy]

I disagree the BOF is dead. It's simply become a niche market as others have indicated. People can get what they want without BOF. Most people buying BOF actually need it (I personally don't) and the Soccer Mom who still wants a 4x4 SUV-like vehicle can have it all with a Unibody without having to step down to a car- for instance the Ford Explorer looks half decent with the sport/Ltd package. The auto market has simply evolved with more choices.

Also, 50,000 sales is nothing to shake a stick at and 2012 was the highest US volume since 2007. Assuming the factory averages $35,000/unit sold, that represents $1.75 BILLION to Toyota's coffers just on 4Runner sales to the US alone. Can't see them walking away from that kind of cash flow.

I think you've got a good point there. SUVs were a niche vehicle before they became the thing to have in the 1990's-2000s. Yet, they were still available. Maybe the BOF SUV isn't "dead", it's just returning to it's original place as a special-purpose vehicle rather than everyone's primary choice for daily transport.

 

[1engineer]

I think you've got a good point there. SUVs were a niche vehicle before they become the thing to have in the 1990's-2000s. Yet, they were still available. Maybe the BOF SUV isn't "dead", it's just returning to it's original place as a special-purpose vehicle rather than everyone's primary choice for daily transport.

Exactly. It started out like this (Suburban, IH Scout, Bronco, Jeepster, Wagoneer, FJ40, Land Rover, Land Cruiser, etc) and now it's returning there. There are many viable choices for 100% on road travel that offer many advantages over the 4Runner. Lot's of higher tech (easier to break lol), better efficiency, more comfort and the list goes on.

 

[TOY2G]

:snacker::snacker::snacker::snacker::snacker:

 

[NoDak]

Also, 50,000 sales is nothing to shake a stick at and 2012 was the highest US volume since 2007. Assuming the factory averages $35,000/unit sold, that represents $1.75 BILLION to Toyota's coffers just on 4Runner sales to the US alone. Can't see them walking away from that kind of cash flow.

yeah i dont think toyota is making 35k per vehicle. probably around 5k tops (more realistic is around 2-3k) after parts, labor, r&d, etc.

 

[crunchcity]

yeah i dont think toyota is making 35k per vehicle. probably around 5k tops (more realistic is around 2-3k) after parts, labor, r&d, etc.

That would be 250 million (assuming 50,000 unit sales). :cheers:

Wonder if that's successful enough for Toyota.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

It's much easier to stuff a truck with technical gizmos and other crap that costs you pennies on the dollar for what you mark it up for. Back 2000 when I bought my 3rd gen, there was nearly a 20 GRAND split between the SR5 V6 4WD and the Limited 4WD. It would only make sense that Toyota wishes every 4Runner they sold was optioned to the gills, and still not lose sales.

Technological bloating has ruined most 4x4s these days. Part is liability, I guess. Part is a desire to be competitive with other manufacturers that have all this garbage on their trucks.

I always use a mountain bike analogy. I ride a steel framed single speed 29er that I assembled from spare parts for less than a grand and go on the same trails guys on 4000 dollar rigs do. There's nothing about the tech that ultimately skill and experience doesn't overcome and most people with a little skill and experience feel they'd rather spend their cash on mods they need and not stuff they don't.

There's very few manufacturers that still offer a bare bones 4WD with zero frills. The short cab Taco 4x4, FJC, SWB Wrangler, and Xterra base seem to be the only ones that come to mind. Of them, the Heep is the most "real" off-roader with its live axle front suspension.

If Toyota kills the FJC soon (and given they sell so few of them and the age of the design, I have no doubt they will), will they try to recapture the small entry level 4x4 market with a stripper 4Runner or something along those lines? There are a few people that still need a 4-5 passenger off roader (mostly the Colorado and Pacific NW crowd).

The electronic gizmos allow them to be more adaptable on various terrian (Theoretically) hence why Land Rover and everyone and their mother uses it. I think its also easier to use existing hardware (such as the ABS module and hardware) than to build in heavy duty lockers and other systems (really the only add-on would be a couple modules and some sensors and software, vs. front rear lockers, possibly beefier axles to accomodate lockers, ect ect.) Its an unfortunate trend because when the systems fail or don't work to their fullest potentional its a let down. But to be honest my 4th gen's para-diff locker/AKA ATRAC works fairly well for most situations.

As far as I know Toyota has said they will keep the FJ cruiser because its their "pride and joy" as a heritage model and off-road offering; they understand its a small sales volume but want to keep it anyways, as with the 4Runner, at least for another generation...

Yah, except for the Land Rover part.

Honestly, I would prefer the stripped down Toyota vs. the Land Rover soley on the basis of reliability and quality. I've seen a lot of Defenders come through and the majority of them puke oil into the intakes (the amount Land Rover and for that matter most Euro cars allow for is ridiculous in my opinion) has horrible electrical problems (TopGear USA took a 2013 Range Rover to Mammoth mountain and it freaked out with its height adjusting suspension, traction system and was already leaking through the dome light... typical LR quality...) and over all gremlins of all kinds.

 

[NoDak]

That would be 250 million (assuming 50,000 unit sales). :cheers:

Wonder if that's successful enough for Toyota.

but thats 50k per year which comes out to 4.1k per month. that is not even peanuts in the grand scheme of numbers for toyota. heck they sold around 31k of camry's in just april alone.

50k 4runners @ 5k profile for a YEAR = 250 mil

31k camry @ 5k profit for a MONTH = 155 mil

heck i bet GM spends that much a month in discounts.


edit : i looked up worldwide sales (quick google search which came up with 2011) and toyota had 7.9 mil sold (all vehicles), 50k in the USA is not alot in the oveall scheme.

 

[crunchcity]

but thats 50k per year which comes out to 4.1k per month. that is not even peanuts in the grand scheme of numbers for toyota. heck they sold around 31k of camry's in just april alone.

50k 4runners @ 5k profile for a YEAR = 250 mil

31k camry @ 5k profit for a MONTH = 155 mil

heck i bet GM spends that much a month in discounts.


edit : i looked up worldwide sales (quick google search which came up with 2011) and toyota had 7.9 mil sold (all vehicles), 50k in the USA is not alot in the oveall scheme.

Well of course it's a small drop in the total product mix compared to their big sellers. I was just speculating if the 4R sales/margins were enough for them to soldier on.

I would like to think so...however small a contribution to the overall mix it's still profitable. Unlike some vehicles deliberately being marketed as loss leaders in the red like some of the Big 3 sometimes do for instance (just imo).