No more 4r's after 1014 ?

I need to apologize. I just went and wrenched on my truck for 10 minutes and realized how needless my last post was. I truly hate the Cult Of The Solid Axle, but I was over the top there and I'm sorry.

Having said that, there's nothing worthless about the Toyota IFS. Yes, it's slightly weaker than the Yota solid axle because it has two CV joints to the birfield's one, but a stock or mildly-modified IFS truck can go anywhere a stock or mildly-modified live-axle rig can.

Where IFS starts to fall down is with the huge lifts and extreme tire sizes. It's much much easier to lift a solid-axled rig 3+ plus inches, and (unlocked) birfields can take a 35-37 inch tire before needing to be upgraded where a driver with an IFS has to start being VERY careful with tires at that size. So for highly modified rigs taking highly technical lines, it's easier to get the straight axle up to snuff than an IFS setup.

Where IFS is utterly superior is in the go-fast sections, and I don't just mean baja-style stuff. The independent articulation means one wheel can take a bump without the entire front of the truck raising into the air, and that means better control and better traction. And lets be honest, most offroaders/backroaders are weekend wheelers who daily drive their truck and will only be seeing mild to moderate technical sections, with long stretches of high speed dirt in between.

The fact is, for 99% of the wheelers out there on 99% of the trails, IFS is a superior system. And I'm saying that as an owner of a straight axle rig - for most of what I do, IFS would be better.
 
LandCruiser said:
And I'd never mod an IFS into a SFA (that's dumb), I'd just put up my FJ80 against an IFS 4Runner.
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Oh, and challenge accepted :). You buy yourself a bone stock 80-series, I'll buy a bone stock 86+ first gen and put the rest into mods (leaving the IFS intact). I maintain that the only thing you'll win will be the race to the trailhead. :D
 
KidVermicious said:
Oh, and challenge accepted :). You buy yourself a bone stock 80-series, I'll buy a bone stock 86+ first gen and put the rest into mods (leaving the IFS intact). I maintain that the only thing you'll win will be the race to the trailhead. :D
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Bone stock?

I haven't owned anything for more than a month before modifying it.

And I think you're overestimating how fast my 80 series can go, or whether I will run out of gas before I get there. It gets 8mpg.

:D
 
TOY2G said:
the Prado platform is used in 5 vehicles .... throughout the world and it is a staple in Toyota's lineup.
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Quoted for the bottom line on the subject. For any that may have spent even the shortest amount of time outside our borders will understand the truth being quoted here.
 
phillyd2 said:
Quoted for the bottom line on the subject. For any that may have spent even the shortest amount of time outside our borders will understand the truth being quoted here.
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I think if this information was considered in people thought process it may change the numbers a bit.

For instance the Camry is known by a few names in other countries. and one other name here in the US. So take Camry, Seinna (based on an extended Camry platform) Avensis (in UK) and add all the sales together. Sure you will get a massive number, but then again it is one of the top 5 number one selling cars in the world.

Now take all the T4R, FJC, Prado 120, Lexus GX, and what ever else uses the 120 platform, I am willing to bet, it makes up a notable portion of Toyota's revenue.

Toyota is a global Company, we cannot look at it as a localized market based company.

phillyd2 is 100 percent correct, if you have never left our shores this may be harder to grasp, but there is a much larger picture.

NOTE: The Prado holds several Military contracts around the Globe, this fact alone buys it some longevity.
 
holy shit 6 pages?! crazy! I read today that Toyota was filing bankruptcy because they lost too much money replacing hazy headlights and lumbar supports:behindsofa:
 
phillyd2 said:
Quoted for the bottom line on the subject. For any that may have spent even the shortest amount of time outside our borders will understand the truth being quoted here.
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TOY2G said:
I think if this information was considered in people thought process it may change the numbers a bit.

For instance the Camry is known by a few names in other countries. and one other name here in the US. So take Camry, Seinna (based on an extended Camry platform) Avensis (in UK) and add all the sales together. Sure you will get a massive number, but then again it is one of the top 5 number one selling cars in the world.

Now take all the T4R, FJC, Prado 120, Lexus GX, and what ever else uses the 120 platform, I am willing to bet, it makes up a notable portion of Toyota's revenue.

Toyota is a global Company, we cannot look at it as a localized market based company.

phillyd2 is 100 percent correct, if you have never left our shores this may be harder to grasp, but there is a much larger picture.

NOTE: The Prado holds several Military contracts around the Globe, this fact alone buys it some longevity.
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This is all great info and I 100% agree, but you guys have failed to address that it might not matter what the customers, the market, or Toyota says/ wants. My question is will new CAFE standards force Toyota to eliminate at least one of their midsize BOF SUVs?
 
Very limited knowledge of CAFE but since this is the Internet I'm not going let that stop me from posting :hello:

It's my understanding that a certain percentage of a car makers fleet needs to pass the CAFE standard. If true then the 4R is a small percentage and should not be part of it.

All this is second hand when I asked why my car had the stupid start / stop feature. Since the 3 series accounts for over 50% of BMW sales it was the one that needed to be in compliance.

If somebody knows better please post up so we can argue and call you stupid, because this is the Internet after all. :fencing:
 
I always thought it had to be a certain portion of a manufacturers vehicle line-up, not total sales. (?) I've tried to research CAFE and it's confusing as hell.
 
phillyd2 said:
Very limited knowledge of CAFE but since this is the Internet I'm not going let that stop me from posting :hello:

It's my understanding that a certain percentage of a car makers fleet needs to pass the CAFE standard. If true then the 4R is a small percentage and should not be part of it.

All this is second hand when I asked why my car had the stupid start / stop feature. Since the 3 series accounts for over 50% of BMW sales it was the one that needed to be in compliance.

If somebody knows better please post up so we can argue and call you stupid, because this is the Internet after all. :fencing:
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Let me help you with this Dave:

Here is a following of excerpts to keep you guys from having to read the whole thing:

Myths Broken:

"While pondering these figures, keep in mind that the tests used to measure CAFE numbers are based on old city and highway tests. Today’s window stickers take those raw numbers, massage them, and incorporate other tests with the goal of providing a more realistic, lower estimate. Example: A BMW 328i rated at 18 mpg city and 28 highway on its window sticker has a “raw” CAFE fuel economy of about 28 mpg—just above today’s car standard of 27.5.

Indeed, the new standards are not as severe as they appear. For one thing, automakers have been bettering the existing standards. As an example, for 2009, car fleets averaged 32.5 CAFE mpg, while trucks came in at 24.5 mpg. That’s 5 mpg above the standard for cars and 1 mpg better than the truck requirement. Beating the current targets gives automakers surplus credits that can be applied toward the future increases, which helps ease the burden of the 5.1-percent annual improvement that will be required in the coming years."
In reality what you see is not what the OEM manufacturers see lol.


What CAFE really means:

"The relevant dimension is called the “footprint” and is defined as the product of a vehicle’s wheelbase and track, in square feet. The idea is to apply fuel-efficiency standards to individual vehicles, thus encouraging all cars and trucks to be more fuel efficient.

Here’s how it works. A 2010 Honda Accord has a wheelbase of 110.2 inches and a track of 62.6 inches. Multiplying those two figures yields a footprint of 47.9 square feet. If you plug that figure into the government’s formula, you get a target mpg of 35.9 for 2016. The smaller its footprint, the higher the fuel economy a given vehicle has to meet. A current Ford Focus would have to achieve 40.8 by 2016, while a Mercedes S-class will have a bogey of 31.8 mpg. The aforementioned 328i will have to hit 38.2 mpg.

The demands on trucks are much less severe. A compact Nissan Rogue SUV, for example, would have to achieve 32.5 mpg in 2016, while 24.7 mpg is required of a Chevy Silverado pickup. However, the Silverado’s footprint is as big as the regulations recognize. Larger trucks, despite an even bigger footprint, will still have to meet the same 24.7 mpg as the Silverado. On the other end of the spectrum, the fuel-economy increases stop at cars the size of the Focus. Cars smaller than the Focus won’t be required to get better mileage. "


So you guys see, it's to Toyota's advantage to NOT sell the Sequoias and the 4Runners and Land Cruisers in large volumes. It is VERY IMPORTANT though to sell the Camrys and RAV4's in high volumes. Clear?

How will this affect Toyota?

"To see how this affects various companies, we looked at their actual CAFE performance in 2008, the most recent year for which complete statistics are available. On the car side, Jaguar/Land Rover is facing the biggest increase—39.9 percent, though BMW and Subaru are close behind. Toyota has it easiest, faced with a mere 5.6-percent increase. American truckmakers aren’t too bad off, either, with only a 19.1-percent increase demanded of Ford. Jaguar/Land Rover’s truck fleet faces the toughest challenge, an improvement of more than 62 percent."

There you go. Questions?
 
phillyd2 said:
Just to add more fuel to the rumor bonfire, these guys are saying the FJ is toast after 2014.....and it may be our fault. :shrug:

Is the End in Sight? - FJC Magazine - For FJ Cruiser Owners and Enthusiasts | FJC Magazine - For FJ Cruiser Owners and Enthusiasts
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I just read this article a couple days ago...If accurate it sorta changes things. It makes me wonder a couple things......

1. Being the only FJ, I would think they are in the know, and it is likely this time its curtains.

2. Does the fear of the vehicle being canned increase sales a couple thousand vehicles each year? If so does Toyota Leak this information just to get a mild bump in overall sales?

3. Why did Toyota start selling the FJC in 4 new markets in the last 2 years including Dubai (a healthy market)?

4. If it truly is the end of the FJ, is it just for the US market???



Who really knows, My time machine is not quite finished, but when it is, I will jump ahead and let you all know what to buy now.
 
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