Please Help: New 4R Trail Purchsing Advice . . . Thanks . . .

[Questtt3]

For the past 7 months or so I have been agonizing over whether to purchase a new 4Runner Trail or FJC. I have scoured this site and really appreciate all of the really helpful posts I have read-thank you.

Being married with two kids (my youngest is 3 y/o and she loves trucks--daddy's girl ) there seems to be many benefits to the 4R . . . not the least of which is a more functional backseat. The FJ, with less backseat space and the small, non-opening "airplane" backseat windows . . . long roadtrips for the kids seemed like less than an ideal situation for them--especially as they get older. And, while I read on some other sites that the FJ has more of what some called an "it" factor . . . I disagree as I think the 4Runner Trail also looks unique and rugged and has good modding potential too, yes?

In trying to put something together on a 4R Trail, I would really appreciate your advice. This is a vehicle that we plan on keeping for a VERY long time ("until the wheels come off")--thus the reason for getting a Toyota to begin with and not say, a Grand Cherokee (also a nice vehicle but read about long-term dependability issues). Money is tight and my initial thought was to go for a new basic 4R Trail (already a bit of a financial reach). However, being a vehicle we plan on keeping, while don't really need Nav (have a Garmin) perhaps the extra $900 for Nav would be worth it for the larger back-up monitor and all the other features (from pictures it appears this might also come with better climate control switches/features(?)). As my daily city commuting vehicle and our family long distance highway vehicle . . . would it be a mistake not to get KDSS even though this would add another aprox. $1500+?!? (have read that in addition to disengaging sway bars for offroad, it "greatly" improves highway performance by reducing/eliminating body roll?).

I would very much appreciate hearing your experiences and advice on these and any other purchasing issues you might be able to share. Thank you very much!

 

[philsey]

Family of 4 = 4R, hands down.

Tight budget = SR5. Other than looks, you said nothing that requires TE features.

 

[Questtt3]

Family of 4 = 4R, hands down.

Tight budget = SR5. Other than looks, you said nothing that requires TE features.

Do moderate off-roading for fun and for carrying gear--especially when accessing remote fresh water dive sites, family cabin and camping, etc.

 

[MacRunner]

I have owned a '10 SR5 and then upgraded to the '12 Trail. It sounds like you like the rugged looks of the Trail vs the SR5 or Limited - I agree with you. I didn't like all the chrome inserts and the lower side panels.

I have the Trail with the Nav and KDDS. If I had to go without one it would be the Nav. Todays phones and Garmons likely work better. It is nice though to have everything integrated - that means a lot to me since I wouldn't want a new car and have to attach accessories like a Garmon to have maps. I am surprised at how much I use and greatly appreciate the back up camera view on the screen, especially when my wife drives it!

As far as the KDDS it is a huge improvement over the way the vehicle drives vs. the SR5 I had. Much more solid and stable in turns. I have heard a few people say that an upgraded suspension can have a similar affect as the KDDS. You can upgrade to the shocks for roughly $600 and likely have a much more stable ride that way.

When it comes down to it what is the extra monthly payment cost for a Trail with Navigation and KDDS? $2,500 or so financed over a 4 or 5 year loan shouldn't add too much to your payment and then you would have everything that you wanted. Especially knowing if you keep the vehicle for 15 years or more the extra costs for both items would be minimal.

Another option is too look for a used model with say 15-20k miles. If you can save $5,000 that way over new then you will still be able to put well over 200,000 miles on the vehicle.

good luck!

 

[Sundog7121]

I had similar situation when I was looking for a 4Runner. Most of my driving is on road, with a lot it Interstate mileage at 65-75MPH. I wanted the option of going off road though, primarily on the high elevation trails of SW Colorado. After looking at the three models (SR5, LTD, TE) I picked the TE with KDSS and NAV. I couldn't be happier.

The KDSS gives a dream ride on the highway, especially at speed. I do notice that it also helps smooth out washboard roads.

I don't use the NAV, as my Garmin works much better and I have it hardwired through dash to a Proclip mount. I use the satellite radio all the time, and when in a city the Entune/Open Table option is useful.

And I like the looks of the TE - is doesn't have all the chrome. It's a little bare under the doors - I fixed that with Demello sliders.

All in all I'm really glad that I got the TE with the KDSS, and since it came with NAV, oh well. I plan to keep it forever, so the extra few dollars didn't matter.

:cheers:

 

[HawgWild]

I'm currently negotiating a price on a Red Trail with KDSS and Nav. They are somewhat unwilling to budge on their price, so I may throw them the document I got from Truecar that is about $1.5K lower than what they are saying right now.

Has anyone had any experience using truecar? Does the dealer ever match their estimate?

 

[Madiusmax]

Has anyone had any experience using truecar? Does the dealer ever match their estimate?

I didn't use the "quote" I recieved from Truecar to purchase, however I did use it as a starting point. Generally it is a better price then just walking in and asking how much, however the best method, if possible, is going to take that price and shop around with it. I got the best price by finding the lowest offer and pitching it against 2-3 dealers.

Was looking for a 2013 Trail with KDSS and NAV. MSRP will run you around $41k for that. I was initially offered $38,500. Shopped it around and ultimately got a final offer of $36,350 + TTL. I was happy with this.

This was in NC however, so location will vary.

True car gives you a good base to start, but you have to watch out for all the dealer fees that they will try to throw in. I was able to eliminate all dealer fees, or at the very least have the sales price reduced to absorb them.

 

[Eagle]

When it comes down to it what is the extra monthly payment cost for a Trail with Navigation and KDDS? $2,500 or so financed over a 4 or 5 year loan shouldn't add too much to your payment and then you would have everything that you wanted.

Roughly $20/month for every $1,000 increase in price. Interest rate and term will affect that (obviously), but $2,500 will be about $50 more per month.

I also second considering something not new. T4Rs don't have as steep a drop as some other vehicles, but you can certainly save a bit on the front end if you can find a 2011-2012 with 20k on it. Of course, you may have a pretty limited supply to choose from.

 

[Stifler]

I think a TE with KDSS is a bit more than $2500 more than an SR5 unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying

 

[Newf4R]

I have never driven a TE with KDSS, but everyone on here seems to rave about it. If the budget is tight, don't stretch it. My SR5 rides great! No complaints. Albeit I plan to upgrade the shocks for Bilsein 5100s in the near future, but both for a little ride improvement and looks. My only suggestion is get the TE over the FJ. It will be such a better vehicle for you and your family, especialllly long term. That's just my opinion though.

 

[philsey]

I upgraded my SR5 to Bilsteins ~2 years ago. And I drove a new KDSS TE 2 weeks ago. So, I've driven the stock SR5, the SR5 w/Bilsteins, and the TE/KDSS.

The stock SR5 suspension is a bit soft to my taste, hence the Bilsteins, with the added benefit of leveling the front (I didn't care for the rake either).
This upgrade was perfect for me.

A KDSS/TE rides noticeably firmer and better controlled than a stock SR5. The KDSS/TE rides/handles slightly better than a SR5 w/Bilsteins IMO, note: IMO.

I've been considering trading for a TE, so I've been comparing lately. I really like the style of the TE over all else, so I'm wrestling with this, as I have no real need whatsoever, just want.

 

[Questtt3]

Thank you very much to everyone for continuing to share your thoughts and experiences . . . I really appreciate it! Your suggestions of considering cost over time (given that this truck will be a keeper) and considering possible shock change in lieu of KDSS to save money is great advice. I also appreciate hearing that you think the 4R is the way to go over the FJ. It is kind of funny, for the longest time I found the looks of the FJ really compelling. Over time however, while I still think the FJ is a great looking truck, the "luster" or draw has kind of waned. Over time the rugged looks of the 4R Trail now appeal more to me. Anybody else feel this way?

Was looking for a 2013 Trail with KDSS and NAV. MSRP will run you around $41k for that. I was initially offered $38,500. Shopped it around and ultimately got a final offer of $36,350 + TTL. I was happy with this.

. . . I was able to eliminate all dealer fees, or at the very least have the sales price reduced to absorb them.

Madiusmax . . . that sounds like a really good deal on a 2013 Trail with KDSS and Nav. I am curious, did you have any other options like mats, etc. too? When I plugged in 2013 4R Trail with just KDSS and Nav. (no other options i.e. no mats, etc.) . . . KBB quotes Fair Purchase Price: $38,505 and TrueCar: $38,239 (both include Destination Charge). KBB claims invoice is: $37,473 and TrueCar claims invoice is $38,139 . . . I always question "Invoice" numbers as it seems they vary by source. This. coupled with the various rebates and back-end returns dealers get from auto companies--it is difficult to know how honest dealers are when they claim they can't go lower and they are "losing money" in the deal (try to make buyer feel guilty).

If I could ask you, where did you get $36,350 inclusive of everything but only TTL in NC? Nice job, how did you do it--? Thanks.

 

[Bill Z]

Pricing is very dependant on where your located and what the allocation of TEs are for your reigon. Here in the Pacific Northwest, the Trail Edition is relatively rare so dealers won't budge too far off sticker.

After going to 4 dealerships and not being able to get them to move more than $1k from sticker, I ended up finding a 2010 with 21k miles (KDSS no nav) and got the price down to $31k. At the time the finance rate for used Toyotas 1.9% which was 1% less than buying a new one so I saved some money there too.

On a side note - you'll love the slide out tray for getting in and out of your diving gear.

 

[dekeman]

If money is tight, buy used. There are many 5G 4Rs around with low, low miles — especially if, as you say, you're going to add lots of miles in a hurry.
Knowing how passionate 4R owners are, I suspect most used ones you come across will have been pampered.

 

[MacRunner]

Just comparing likely cost difference between Trail w/out KDDS and Navigation vs. Trail with KDDS and navigation.

 

[MacRunner]

I think a TE with KDSS is a bit more than $2500 more than an SR5 unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying

Comparing Trail model with then w/out KDDS and Navigation. Cost difference between base SR5 and Trail model with KDDS and Navigation is closer to $7,000.

 

[Newf4R]

I've been considering trading for a TE, so I've been comparing lately. I really like the style of the TE over all else, so I'm wrestling with this, as I have no real need whatsoever, just want.

You buy things because you Need them??? My purchases consist only of wants!!!

 

[philsey]

You buy things because you Need them??? My purchases consist only of wants!!!

Yeaaaaah, yer wife calls BS.

 

[Madiusmax]

Madiusmax . . . that sounds like a really good deal on a 2013 Trail with KDSS and Nav. I am curious, did you have any other options like mats, etc. too? When I plugged in 2013 4R Trail with just KDSS and Nav. (no other options i.e. no mats, etc.) . . . KBB quotes Fair Purchase Price: $38,505 and TrueCar: $38,239 (both include Destination Charge). KBB claims invoice is: $37,473 and TrueCar claims invoice is $38,139 . . . I always question "Invoice" numbers as it seems they vary by source. This. coupled with the various rebates and back-end returns dealers get from auto companies--it is difficult to know how honest dealers are when they claim they can't go lower and they are "losing money" in the deal (try to make buyer feel guilty).

If I could ask you, where did you get $36,350 inclusive of everything but only TTL in NC? Nice job, how did you do it--? Thanks.

I first got a quote from Jim Barkley Toyota in Asheville of $36,900 with no other dealer fees, just TTL. I thought that already was too good to be true, however I used that number and pitched it to Fred Anderson Toyota of Raleigh and Hendrick Toyota of Apex. Apparently these guys are BIG competitors to each other so what went from $36,900 dropped down to the $36,350 for them to absorb whatever doc fee they "had" to include. I was initially quote for them to order one, 2-4 weeks with ONLY KDSS and Nav. However, Hendrick of Apex had one arrive with only carpet mats additional. They however honored the same price Fred Anderson was going to offer without. So I actually got carpet mats (front and second row) for "free." Your numbers are what I also go with TrueCar, KBB, and Edmunds quotes for "Invoice" however these invoice numbers apparently were still more then they were willing to let go with.

I believe the competitiveness of both dealerships heavily played in my final price, however I was willing to go around $37,000 + TLL, just kept pushing it. I had no hard feelings with either dealership as a consumer I am inclined to go with who had the best offer for the same product. Both ended up on the same page, and I simply went with the soonest available option. Beyond me how they sold it for so low, but ultimately I was happy with the purchase. I had the luxury of time, and could wait 2-4 weeks if needed, and made that clear to them.

This purchase was made mid month, and so I don't believe some end of month quota was in play, necessarily.

Good luck.

 

[Questtt3]

I first got a quote from Jim Barkley Toyota in Asheville of $36,900 with no other dealer fees, just TTL. I thought that already was too good to be true, however I used that number and pitched it to Fred Anderson Toyota of Raleigh and Hendrick Toyota of Apex. Apparently these guys are BIG competitors to each other so what went from $36,900 dropped down to the $36,350 for them to absorb whatever doc fee they "had" to include. I was initially quote for them to order one, 2-4 weeks with ONLY KDSS and Nav. However, Hendrick of Apex had one arrive with only carpet mats additional. They however honored the same price Fred Anderson was going to offer without. So I actually got carpet mats (front and second row) for "free." Your numbers are what I also go with TrueCar, KBB, and Edmunds quotes for "Invoice" however these invoice numbers apparently were still more then they were willing to let go with.

I believe the competitiveness of both dealerships heavily played in my final price, however I was willing to go around $37,000 + TLL, just kept pushing it. I had no hard feelings with either dealership as a consumer I am inclined to go with who had the best offer for the same product. Both ended up on the same page, and I simply went with the soonest available option. Beyond me how they sold it for so low, but ultimately I was happy with the purchase. I had the luxury of time, and could wait 2-4 weeks if needed, and made that clear to them.

This purchase was made mid month, and so I don't believe some end of month quota was in play, necessarily.

Good luck.

Hey Madiusmax (and everyone else) . . . thank you very much for your reply! (Sorry for the delayed response been away).

That is really quite amazing . . . great job negotiating! I am in NJ/NY but would happily make the trip if I could get that price. Now armed with your help and what is possible, I will try to work with the dealers here . . . but if I get nowhere, perhaps (if you don't mind) I could contact the dealerships you worked with and just see what they are willing to do (however, if you'd rather I not, I won't).

As far as the KDSS and NAV, it does sound like the way to go given the performance benefit and factoring in the extended period of time we will keep the 4R.

On the board, like probably many of you, I read about Toyota's Bill Fay at the NY Auto Show and his statement that ". . . something (is) coming real soon on 4Runner."
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/138490-confirmed-2014-4runner-get-changes.html

Does make me curious what and when that is. As much as I really hate to do it, has me wondering if I should wait to find if this "something" is significant enough to wait for. I imagine "real soon" would mean 2014 . . . and would hope within the next few months something would leak out. I know the 2014 Grand Cherokees have been out for a little while now . . . do the new model year 4Rs always come out in the fall? Hmmm, tough call.

Again, thanks so much!