Steering Rack and Front Sway Bar Bushing Replacement

[99Runnr]

Mtbtim, I supplied that pic and the number from the manufacturer in the other thread. It's a 25 mm / 1" bushing and as you can see fits like a glove.

I paid $11 for them at autozone. Found my receipt.

 

[7echo]

i couldn't find the right bushings so i used a skateboard truck bushings and installed that! works great! so much flex now!

What color and durometer?

 

[mtbtim]

Mtbtim, I supplied that pic and the number from the manufacturer in the other thread. It's a 25 mm / 1" bushing and as you can see fits like a glove.

I paid $11 for them at autozone. Found my receipt.

Thanks. I was promised another set of end links bushings from Prothane but I think they forgot about me. I've also been talking with Greg at Energy Suspension. Greg told me he'd hook me up with a set too but he wants to first find out if Dominick at Protane is going to come through.

I was annoyed with Prothane that they sell that 18-1115 kit knowing people will have problems with the end link bushing fit. Many on this forum just bought another kit that has the correct size end link bushings. While it's not a huge amount of money we're talking about, it's a matter of principal that they should fix the problem. But, very soon I'm going to get tired of calling them and I'll either buy the set you suggested from Auto Zone or one of the other Energy Suspension kits I was suggested from other members. I was hoping to affect some change at Prothane so future 3rd Gen owners would get the correct size bushings and maybe they will do something about it.

But, regardless of all the bickering back and forth on this thread, [MENTION=102606]infamousRNR[/MENTION] and I wanted to share our video of installing polyurethane bushings for the steering rack and sway bar/end links. The OEM bushings on my truck were not worn at all, but I'm glad I did it because my steering is definitely tighter and more responsive. A very nice upgrade that isn't too hard to do.

 

[amalik]

Thanks. I was promised another set of end links bushings from Prothane but I think they forgot about me. I've also been talking with Greg at Energy Suspension. Greg told me he'd hook me up with a set too but he wants to first find out if Dominick at Protane is going to come through.

I was annoyed with Prothane that they sell that 18-1115 kit knowing people will have problems with the end link bushing fit. Many on this forum just bought another kit that has the correct size end link bushings. While it's not a huge amount of money we're talking about, it's a matter of principal that they should fix the problem. But, very soon I'm going to get tired of calling them and I'll either buy the set you suggested from Auto Zone or one of the other Energy Suspension kits I was suggested from other members. I was hoping to affect some change at Prothane so future 3rd Gen owners would get the correct size bushings and maybe they will do something about it.

But, regardless of all the bickering back and forth on this thread, [MENTION=102606]infamousRNR[/MENTION] and I wanted to share our video of installing polyurethane bushings for the steering rack and sway bar/end links. The OEM bushings on my truck were not worn at all, but I'm glad I did it because my steering is definitely tighter and more responsive. A very nice upgrade that isn't too hard to do.

So in the end, you would go with poly over oem on the swaybar?

I have nothing against poly, its just the oem on my truck has held up like... Forever

 

[mtbtim]

So in the end, you would go with poly over oem on the swaybar?

I have nothing against poly, its just the oem on my truck has held up like... Forever

I decided to change my sway bar bushings because the one on the drivers side was mushing out on one end. I can't really say if the polyurethane bushings did anything though. I guess if I regularly took corners fast causing a lot of body roll before replacing the bushings, I would then be able to go out and drive hard to see if I detected a difference. I drive my rig like a truck and not a sports car, so I reckon I'll never know. I heard on this forum that they were a nice upgrade, and since it's not an expensive upgrade, I just went for it. I can say for sure the polyurethane bushings in the steering rack were an improvement in steering response. That was easily noticeable. Rubber obviously gives more than polyurethane so it makes sense. And, since the OEM sway bar bushings are rubber also, I'd imagine you would get less movement out of the sway bar using polyurethane bushings and thus it would help the sway bar do it's job better. Seems logical, I think. For a $20-30 investment, it's worth trying out.

 

[DeathCougar]

Thanks for looking into the fitment situation and taking the time to post about it. If, by some miracle, for every 10 posts of people giving their opinions we had 1 guy posting about his experiences and installations we'd have every DIY perfected by now.

THIS. So much this. I enjoy reading posts by people like @foo because he actually takes the time to explain, educates himself, and finds the proper fit/fitment. He uses facts and research, not "I read it on a forum, it must be true".

I build airplanes for a living, imagine if I just said "Well, 1mm difference in this hole for the fuselage structure won't matter". 1mm DOES matter, and just because people have been (incorrectly) using a certain companies parts for a while doesn't make it right.

Keep up the hard work and research Foo, open discussions like this are EXACTLY what this forum needs. We'll never know if we don't discuss and compare/contrast ideas and information!

And those of you attacking him and creating a big dramafest over it....please, just stop. Unreal that people would attack another forum member for contributing INFORMATION just because they don't agree with it.

 

[99Runnr]

I like how one fanatical person brings this mentality out of the woodwork that airplanes and society is going to come tumbling down unless you join the bandwagon. The right bushing existed already. Even if you can't decipher what the part is, like he started, go to the DEALERSHIP who made the vehicle.

Is it even an OEM replacement part to throw in poly bushings? Oh, no it's not. If I put a 747 wing on a 707 frame and it crashes, probably shouldn't have thrown shit on that it didn't come with and not known the difference, right?

The part and application location have every bit of importance to 1mm of excess tolerance. Unless you feel a multi-MILLION dollar airplane, which transports hundreds of people, multiple times per DAY, for YEARS is comparable to a sway bar bushing, where the user didn't even notice it was gone to begin with?

If you take life this seriously, everything is airplane tolerance, you should be able to spot rust on doors you sell, too. :roadkill:

 

[DeathCougar]

I'm not going to let you draw me into a pissing contest. If you have a problem with someone trying to gain factual information, then just ignore him and move along. You're not helping the forum by attacking members who are trying to find real world numbers and information.

 

[foo]

Thanks. I was promised another set of end links bushings from Prothane but I think they forgot about me. I've also been talking with Greg at Energy Suspension. Greg told me he'd hook me up with a set too but he wants to first find out if Dominick at Protane is going to come through.

Hi Mountain Bike Tim,

I haven't been posting because I was waiting for the parts before I could add any more value (responding to useless posts about skateboard bushings not being my schtick); but to the point of your concerns about Prothane, I have been in contact with Domenick by both mail and phone.

Personally, I can say he definitely agrees with us, based on what he told me over the phone, at least with respect to the slop being undesirable.

He has to tell us what his engineers, who were standing behind him, tell him to tell us, which is that over 5mm of slop on a 10mm post doesn't matter. It's up to us how to take that, especially since both Daystar and Energy Suspensions apparently feel it does matter (and probably also Toyota thinks so to, at least with the properly sized OEM bushings).

I can't really say more publicly about how Domenick feels because he can only do so much since he has to tell us what he's told to tell us. He certainly has forwarded our concerns over to what he called "R&D", and pretty much he feels that's all he can do for us at this point.

They have the links to the thread I authored on the bushing sizes, and I know they have read it.

I didn't ask them about your bushings though, but if I talk to Dominick again (when I do the job and can add more value) I will mention that you're still waiting for them.

Thanks for the great thread because this thread was really about HOW to do the job right and less so about how to get the right bushings. I'm sorry it was sidetracked on the bushings, so I'll try to put bushing-size stuff in the other thread which is specifically about what parts kits fit and what parts kits don't fit.

Everyone can help though - if we can get a MEASUREMENT of the midpoint swaybar and endlinks from a few of our trucks which would validate my "assumption" that they're all the same - but I don't know that at all since I only measured one truck.

I was annoyed with Prothane that they sell that 18-1115 kit knowing people will have problems with the end link bushing fit. Many on this forum just bought another kit that has the correct size end link bushings. While it's not a huge amount of money we're talking about, it's a matter of principal that they should fix the problem.

Again I have to agree with you.

It's terrible that one recommended kit had over 5mm of ID slop on a 10mm OD post while the other recommended kit had a 27mm bushing whose ID didn't fit the OD of the swaybar and whose OD didn't fit in the 26mm stock bracket - and the kit did not come with a new bracket as one of the posters here kindly supplied a picture of (where, "I" see at least a worrying couple millimeters of overlap of the bushing pushing outside the bracket which has to be compressed when mounted on the body - so that worries me a bit - but I don't know how the OEM bushings fit in a similar non-installed situation - so I can't say for sure if that's a problem or not in real life).

What's great is that we now have at least TWO kits which purport to have the correct sizes!

It turns out that one of these two kits has never been recommended on this forum, as far as I can tell by doing my research (and getting in trouble with the trolls for doing that research and for crosslinking properly so).

The other kit was recommended on just one of the threads I crosslinked to (the purpose of crosslinking being so that everyone would have all the data no matter what thread they found). And even it was only recommended AFTER I brought up the inconsistencies on that thread.

So, I think most people are wholly unaware of the properly fitting options actually available to them.

Only time and experience will tell if the two new kits are a perfect fit, but I'm taking a chance by getting the Daystar kit, so, I will certainly update the other bushing thread on the size fit when the truck and bushings are back in my hands.

But, very soon I'm going to get tired of calling them and I'll either buy the set you suggested from Auto Zone or one of the other Energy Suspension kits I was suggested from other members.

I don't remember if I posted it on this thread or on the other thread, but I think it may be impossible to get the right kit for the front from Autozone if you order the one for the 3rd-generation TOYOTA 4RUNNER that they advertise.

I spent an hour on the phone with their corporate headquarters, and they're not even AWARE that they have a problem (because nobody has told them that except me, according to them).

If you can get the right-sized kit from Autozone by ordering one for the Tundra or some other vehicle, that's great. Please let us know what part number and what the fitment was, so that we all learn from your efforts.

Or if you can get a kit that also comes with the larger swaybar body bracket, that's great also (but note the few millimeters of overlap of the bushing at the bottom, as compared to OEM please).

But otherwise, I had given up on Autozone after those phone and online-chat conversations (it was much like trying to explain to a bunch of kids how gravity is not really a force but just the curvature of spacetime; they just couldn't fathom that their kit didn't fit because it wasn't how they comprehended "their" experience).

I was hoping to affect some change at Prothane so future 3rd Gen owners would get the correct size bushings and maybe they will do something about it.

You and I both are fighting the BIGGER battle, which is to get the right sized bushings to EVERYONE out there who plugs their 3rd-generation Toyota specs into the bushing search engines.

One other battle "I'm" fighting is to figure out whether it's just SOME 3rd-generation trucks, or all of them which have this problem?

From my conversations with Daystar, it's ALL of them; but from my conversations with Domenick at Prothane, it's just you and me.

At least Dave at Energy Suspensions found out from his backup team that they have figured out the problem, so they offer TWO kits - which implies that it's just some 3rd-generation trucks.

That's why I asked people to MEASURE their sway bars and endlinks at the centerpoint.

Most of the trolls won't do that - but would you kindly do that when you get a chance? It would be nice to compare numbers with SOMEONE, especially since the truck I'm working on was bought new so the owners knows it's STOCK and original - but it's a 2WD where most of you would have a 4WD truck.

BTW, if just one of the posters who complained about my font choice, or that 5mm of slop is no big deal or, of all things, skateboard bushings, actually bothered to MEASURE their swaybar and endlink diameters, that would actually CONTRIBUTE VALUE to this thread.

That's value "I" can't contribute, unless I bring a calipers with me and head off to the local mall parking lot to measure trucks I find sitting there.

So, PLEASE, if you're reading this post, please MEASURE and POST your midpoint measurements to this thread. THAT would be adding value.

But, regardless of all the bickering back and forth on this thread,

I hope you realize that the record will show that I never started any of that bickering. Not a single one. I never do.

The bickering is like what happens when you tell a bunch of fifth graders that the centrifugal force they "feel" when going on a playground roundabout isn't a "real" force, where all you get is potty-mouthed protestations that they have lots of experience "feeling centrifugal force", so it must be a real force. They never stop to think about what we're trying to say. They just tell us how much experience they have on the playground, yet they have no idea what centripetal force is by way of comparison.

Same thing happened here.

I simply confronted the potty-mouthed trolls head on.

While I don't see facial expressions all that well when I read their posts, I completely comprehend EVERYTHING I read; so I get the slurs that are slung my way.

The trolls (who never have anything of value to add) will always ruin a thread, whether or not you confront them. So our only choices are either to ignore them or tell them to shut up.

Everyone handles this differently but most people, understandably, just ignore them and hope they'll just go away. The other tactic is to confront them head on with what they're doing, in the strategic hopes that they'll get the point that we're on to them, and let them go off and ruin some other thread instead (since that's what they do).

I, for one, would simply wish that the trolls actually contribute value (versus opinions, which everyone has at least one of) by posting a measurement of their swaybar diameter and endlink diameters on their trucks instead of wasting everyone's time with multiple posts about skateboard bushings.

[MENTION=102606]infamousRNR[/MENTION] and I wanted to share our video of installing polyurethane bushings for the steering rack and sway bar/end links. The OEM bushings on my truck were not worn at all, but I'm glad I did it because my steering is definitely tighter and more responsive. A very nice upgrade that isn't too hard to do.

I think you very much for the video. It will come in handy when the truck is available to me again to work on. Your video was the key point in this thread anyway - not the mismatched bushings.

I'll put detail about the mismatched bushings in that other thread so that it won't dilute the impact of your wonderful video on this thread.

Thanks for your understanding and for the video and for bringing up this issue with Prothane. It's an issue with both Prothane and Energy Suspensions, but apparently not with Daystar (AFAICT).

Let's see though what happens when I finally get my hands on those bushings. They were sent to the owner of the truck so I have to find out where they are before I can add any more value to this thread on how to do the job right or to the other thread that is just on the proper size of the bushings.

 

[csp]

I build airplanes for a living, imagine if I just said "Well, 1mm difference in this hole for the fuselage structure won't matter". 1mm DOES matter, and just because people have been (incorrectly) using a certain companies parts for a while doesn't make it right.

Yet some folks are able to distinguish A&P from a swaybar bushing. It's all about perspective.

Nobody told foo that his research is incorrect or irrelevant either. If you're paying attention to 1mm differences you should pay attention to what's actually said about his antics like this is the equivalent of curing cancer.

You can actually safely drive a 4Runner without a swaybar!

 

[DeathCougar]

Yet some folks are able to distinguish A&P from a swaybar bushing. It's all about perspective.

Nobody told foo that his research is incorrect or irrelevant either. If you're paying attention to 1mm differences you should pay attention to what's actually said about his antics like this is the equivalent of curing cancer.

You can actually safely drive a 4Runner without a swaybar!

My point is, and remains, you guys shouldn't be busting his balls for him trying to do factual research. If you think he is beating a dead horse....who cares? Just ignore him and move on to a thread that you can actually help with.

 

[foo]

Yet some folks are able to distinguish A&P from a swaybar bushing. It's all about perspective.

Nobody told foo that his research is incorrect or irrelevant either. If you're paying attention to 1mm differences you should pay attention to what's actually said about his antics like this is the equivalent of curing cancer.

You can actually safely drive a 4Runner without a swaybar!

Have you measured your swaybar and endlinks yet?
What did you get for their diameters?

 

[foo]

My point is, and remains, you guys shouldn't be busting his balls for him trying to do factual research. If you think he is beating a dead horse....who cares? Just ignore him and move on to a thread that you can actually help with.

They can actually help.
Everyone can.

They can post the measurements of their swaybar diameter at the midpoint, and their endlink diameter at the midpoint instead of posting skateboard bushings.

BTW, I just updated the other thread with measurements of the Daystar bushings. It's 3am and the truck isn't with me, but the owner dropped off the package at my house and I just came home to see it on my doorstep.

I immediately opened it up and posted the measured sizes in the other thread. The Daystar IDs look pretty good though because they compare very well with the sizes I measured (and posted) for the swaybar OD and for the endlink OD.

I'll be able to run a better comparison tomorrow when I take the swaybar off though, and compare the bushings, side by side, old and new.

Here's a picture of what came with the Daystar kit.

(The calipers are what I used to make the ID & OD & Height & Length measurements that I posted just now in the measurement thread.)

 

[mtbtim]

@foo, I still haven't received the replacement bushings I was promised from Prothane. Tomorrow, I'm going to call Greg at Energy Suspension and ask if he can send me some from one of the kits we've identified that have the correct size end link bushings. If he says he's still waiting to hear from Domninick at Prothane, I'm just going to ask if I can purchase the end link bushings from him and be done with it. For this simple purchase, I've called Prothane once and Energy Suspension around 3 times. I'm pretty much over it. I just want to get some bushings that fit right and not think about it anymore. Talking with Dominick, they don't seem to think it's that big of a problem since they've sold over 500 kits and only received a handful of calls regarding the improper fit. And then theirs the opinion that the sloppy fit is just fine but I'm not settling for that line of BS. Dominick never responded to my email either so that's just another thing that tells me it's not a big priority. I told him in the email that their kit gets many negative reviews on Amazon for the same exact fit issues. It sucks, because others behind us will buy that same kit and have the same issue. I would think they would care to fix the problem because it's their company's reputation, but their actions speak otherwise.

I don't own calipers but I did a measurement of the inner diameter of the old OEM bushings with a ruler and I came up with 3/8". Maybe I'll buy a set of calipers on Amazon.

 

[foo]

@foo, I still haven't received the replacement bushings I was promised from Prothane.

I did the job early this morning, and the Daystar bushings fit perfectly (see picture below). I made measurements and will post old and new measurements to the bushing-only thread; but the summary is that they're almost exactly the same as OEM (within a few thousandths).

Tomorrow, I'm going to call Greg at Energy Suspension and ask if he can send me some from one of the kits we've identified that have the correct size end link bushings.

Just to remind you of what's in the other thread, Dave at Energy Suspensions found out, after asking around, that the right part number is Energy Suspension 8.5141{R,G}.

If he says he's still waiting to hear from Domninick at Prothane, I'm just going to ask if I can purchase the end link bushings from him and be done with it. For this simple purchase, I've called Prothane once and Energy Suspension around 3 times. I'm pretty much over it.

Heh heh ... I certainly know how you feel.

If you've seen the other thread, I posted only a SUMMARY of the number of phone calls that I've made on this endeavor. I think that we've made good progress though, as Prothane has to realize they're shipping the wrong stuff and Energy Suspension didn't communicate that they fixed the problem to all their personnel.

Of course, the lookup engines are all still wrong ... so there's more to do, but we can't conquer the world in our first thread!

I just want to get some bushings that fit right and not think about it anymore.

I took measurements of the swaybar eyelet and of the endlinks at the bushing location, and of the metal washers and of the bushings. I now have no doubt that the Prothane bushings are a TERRIBLE fit in comparison to the Daystar and OEM bushings.

I know you won't get into an argument with me over whether those extra 5mm matter, but suffice to say that there is no reason for a terrible fit when a good fit can be had, especially when there's not much other than the washer and bushing keeping the endlink centered.

Talking with Dominick, they don't seem to think it's that big of a problem since they've sold over 500 kits and only received a handful of calls regarding the improper fit.

Between you and me, I think those 500 people just ASSUMED the part was supposed to have 5mm of slop on a 10mm diameter endlink. Also, between you and me, Domenick understands the size issue and he doesn't think we're crazy for wanting the right fit.

But it's not his call.

He thinks there may be two-different sizes out there for 3rd-gen 4Runners, but, since the Daystar only comes in one size, I'm beginning to think there is only one size.

The only way (for us) to know the truth though is for a dozen or so folks to post their midpoint endlink diameters. My endlink was essentially the same at the midpoint as it was at the bushing area.

And then theirs the opinion that the sloppy fit is just fine but I'm not settling for that line of BS.

I'm pretty sure it's an "excuse"; but I don't want to argue.
Certainly the Daystar kit shown below matched OEM, as I would presume the Energy Suspensions (new part number) kit would.

In fact, since I verified the Daystar kit, if you verify the Energy Suspensions new kit, then we'd have lessened the risk for everyone else since they're essentially two new kits that we're recommending and you and I would be the first to try them out.

Dominick never responded to my email either so that's just another thing that tells me it's not a big priority. I told him in the email that their kit gets many negative reviews on Amazon for the same exact fit issues. It sucks, because others behind us will buy that same kit and have the same issue. I would think they would care to fix the problem because it's their company's reputation, but their actions speak otherwise.

His email to me was short and not like what I used to send customers when I was in customer service (at a software company).

I don't own calipers but I did a measurement of the inner diameter of the old OEM bushings with a ruler and I came up with 3/8". Maybe I'll buy a set of calipers on Amazon.

I have a half dozen micrometers (all different sizes) and calipers. Since ID was needed, I used the calipers and since we're measuring a flexible material, I used the calipers for all the measurements.

I measured all the critical dimensions of the old and new bushings, and I even measured the endlinks at multiple points, and the swaybar at multiple points, and the washers and swaybar eyelet

I will put all those measurements in the bushing thread, but, suffice to say that, other than exceptions for wear, they matched nearly perfectly.

 

[fblainen11]

I realize that arguing about sway bar bushings is kind of like arguing about which screw cap to use to cover the threads on your valve stems on your tires, but personally it would tick me off if I ordered something from a company and they said it would fit, then the part doesn't end up fitting correctly.
I'm not saying anyone is right or taking anyone's side here. Just that it would be aggravating. The point of going to poly bushings is that it is supposed to be an upgrade over OEM rubber. If you just use your 4runner as DD then maybe you don't want to upgrade, and you SHOULD go with OEM.

 

[mtbtim]

I realize that arguing about sway bar bushings is kind of like arguing about which screw cap to use to cover the threads on your valve stems on your tires, but personally it would tick me off if I ordered something from a company and they said it would fit, then the part doesn't end up fitting correctly.
I'm not saying anyone is right or taking anyone's side here. Just that it would be aggravating. The point of going to poly bushings is that it is supposed to be an upgrade over OEM rubber. If you just use your 4runner as DD then maybe you don't want to upgrade, and you SHOULD go with OEM.

Even for Daily Driving, it's a nice upgrade, especially for the steering rack. When I saw that the condition of the OEM bushings when I pressed them out, I thought I wouldn't experience much of an improvement because my bushings were in good shape. But, I definitely have better steering response with the poly bushings. I'm sure the sway bar bushings are having the same positive effect because they are stiffer than rubber but it's a little harder to quantify because I usually don't take corners too hard in my truck so I can't say for sure there's less body roll with the poly bushings. Since the poly sway bar bushings are so affordable, I would recommend people to consider these as an option to OEM when it's time to renew the bushings.

 

[foo]

I realize that arguing about sway bar bushings is kind of like arguing about which screw cap to use to cover the threads on your valve stems on your tires, but personally it would tick me off if I ordered something from a company and they said it would fit, then the part doesn't end up fitting correctly.

I agree with you. I hope Mountain-Bike Tim gets the new Energy Suspensions part number so he can test out the fit.

That way, there are at least two parts kits that have the same size as OEM, which the Daystar kit was, as you can see from my measurements in the other thread, but also from the visuals (such as the one below).

I'm not saying anyone is right or taking anyone's side here. Just that it would be aggravating.

Again, I agree. People have been advising buying TWO kits just to get the parts that are in one kit. I'm sure that works, but that doesn't sound like the way things should be done.

Based on what the guys who sold me the Daystar kit told me over the phone, I suspect ALL the 3rd-generation stock 4runners have the same size swaybar and endlinks. I don't know for sure though. So that's why it would be nice if people post their diameters at the midpoint of the endlinks and swaybar.

I've already measured mine at both the midpoint and at the bushing contact surface and they compare favorably so I've validated the approach.

Now all we need are some measurements. I can't be the only one here with calipers and mics. Certainly there must be some backyard machinists on this board!

The point of going to poly bushings is that it is supposed to be an upgrade over OEM rubber. If you just use your 4runner as DD then maybe you don't want to upgrade, and you SHOULD go with OEM.

I took the truck out for a test drive, and it gave a bump or two as I was backing out of the garage, and since it was pitch black and raining, I thought I hit something - but I think it was just the parts settling in.

After that, I didn't notice anything special in the ride, but it's not my ride, so, I don't have a feel for it. The owner told me it's fine, but there's no information in there.

I guess the poly is supposed to flex less than the buna, but the reason I chose it was that it was the recommended setup here, and, with the existing oil leak, the poly should hold up better than the buna.

Here's a picture of the old and new body bushings in the OEM brackets.

 

[csp]

Have you measured your swaybar and endlinks yet?
What did you get for their diameters?

You have me confused with someone who has less trivial things to do with my time. Some of us have real life issues to deal with on a daily basis.

 

[DeathCougar]

You have me confused with someone who has less trivial things to do with my time. Some of us have real life issues to deal with on a daily basis.

And yet you have time to log in and try to get that last word in. If you don't care about this topic, move on! There's nothing for you here!