The "low tech means less to break" 5th gen myth?

[btcsxj]

This post is simply for the sake of discourse.

I think we all have heard how the 5th gens lack of newer tech, buttons, and gizmos is usually followed by the statement "i love it, less to break!" Now with the 2020 model out, nary another review comes out with this mention of lack of tech, only to be followed by such comments.

Sure, maybe with things like air suspension and other complicated mechanics (although 6 gears hardly is new, my 2001 car has 6 gears), but in my personal experience of being a tech guy and car guy for decades, I think this is an overblown statement. Because buttons and dials and electronic features/displays/etc attached to electronics rarely "break" in my experience - automotive or otherwise. Its typically the mechanical components that do.

May I suggest/wonder that it makes owners feel good about lack of these "extras" on a $40-50K truck stuff that comes standard on vehicles $20K LESS (e.g. lack of adaptive cruise control). I am of the camp that WANTS the latest, at least some of it!

I am of the opinion that the 4runner is a good balance of new styling and old school (reliable?) mechanics for a $34,000 off road vehicle (what I paid for a 2016 CPO Trail w/ 7k miles).

What I will never understand is how people are paying well over $45k for this vehicle and still being happy about "well, less stuff to break!" Doesn't make sense to me.

Also, a high tech 4runner DOES exist. It's the Lexus LX470/460. All of the people who hypothesize that less tech = more reliability would instantly shut the f*&k up once they drove an LX460... The headlights, the seats, the adaptive cruise control... so nice, especially for multi thousand mile road trips like all the 'overlanders' in here claim to do.

It's like these people have never actually driven real classic cars (60s, 70s, 80s)... they objectively suck to drive. Cars today are SO much better than they were 10 years ago, let alone 20 years ago from where the 4runner's drivetrain was born.

 

[brtnstrns]

I don't want any of that soccer mom crap. The Toyota 4x4 platforms are designed for farming, mining and rough service in 3rd world countries, not as rolling living rooms.

#poeslaw

 

[CougarHound]

Speaking of profits, I don't think the new SR5 4runners are that expensive compared to the Explorers and Jeeps. I'm pretty cheap and I have no brand loyalty...My other car is a Prius C.

Ford was doing great in sales...and then they partnered with Microsoft. Good example of how things can go really wrong with tech.

And here is a typical review by some guy who doesn't understand 4runners.

2019 Toyota 4Runner TRD Off-Road Review: Walking With Dinosaurs

 

[catus]

I am of the opinion that the 4runner is a good balance of new styling and old school (reliable?) mechanics for a $34,000 off road vehicle (what I paid for a 2016 CPO Trail w/ 7k miles).

What I will never understand is how people are paying well over $45k for this vehicle and still being happy about "well, less stuff to break!" Doesn't make sense to me.

Also, a high tech 4runner DOES exist. It's the Lexus LX470/460. All of the people who hypothesize that less tech = more reliability would instantly shut the f*&k up once they drove an LX460... The headlights, the seats, the adaptive cruise control... so nice, especially for multi thousand mile road trips like all the 'overlanders' in here claim to do.

It's like these people have never actually driven real classic cars (60s, 70s, 80s)... they objectively suck to drive. Cars today are SO much better than they were 10 years ago, let alone 20 years ago from where the 4runner's drivetrain was born.

Hmmm, so part of the reason I was willing to spend relatively big bucks on my new Runner is that 1. I know it's Toyota reliable unless I do something stupid, and 2. it's going to be worth a fairly good percentage of that cost when it's time to sell it. I'm not willing to spend Lexus bucks for a Gucci'd 4Runner. My seats are fine (heated!), headlights are fine, I don't use Cruise control, and I won't take many multi thousand mile trips in it. I don't claim to be an "overlander", whatever that means. I see way too many 4Runners with aftermarket racks, bumpers, traction boards, shovels, and hi lifts that have never been used...uggh. Most seem to be Starbucks posers with shiny paint jobs owned by people with too much disposable income.

Like I wrote earlier, I enjoy driving. Old cars suck in a fun way to drive. I like the two foot diameter steering wheel on my '64 FJ-40, and bad (not really) drum brakes. Years ago, I drove the 40 from Denver to Moab for a week of wheeling there. Lots of guys trailered their rigs, but I wanted to drive there. Three speed on the column, baby, and I was still able to drive over Vail Pass! Hit rain, snow, traffic. Man, that was fun!

I think of my 2019 4Runner as an evolution of the FJ-60 I used to own, but with a lot more power/torque and some niceties and no carburetor. It's not particularly quick 0-60, but who cares about that? I know I'll be among the first to the grocery store the next time we get hit by a blizzard. My wife's '18 Tuscon Limited Ultimate with all the electronic crap will be sitting in the driveway. And the car's nanny will tell me that it's snowing.

 

[CO-Cygnus]

Speaking of profits, I don't think the new SR5 4runners are that expensive compared to the Explorers and Jeeps. I'm pretty cheap and I have no brand loyalty...My other car is a Prius C.

Ford was doing great in sales...and then they partnered with Microsoft. Good example of how things can go really wrong with tech.

And here is a typical review by some guy who doesn't understand 4runners.

2019 Toyota 4Runner TRD Off-Road Review: Walking With Dinosaurs

You can get a 2020 XLT explorer in the mid-30s and Ford’s problem is not that they put tech in their cars. Ford’s problem is that they are Ford.

The next time someone says Toyota should not offer a turbocharged engine (they already do) because of issues with EcoBoost should remember Ford also can’t make steering wheels that stay on or seat belts that don’t randomly catch on fire. “Ford Screwed it up” is a rather low bar, honestly.

 

[Jetboy]

I would gladly take the entire tech suite from the GX460 and put it in my 4Runner. I would have no hesitation on the reliability of durability of any of the systems from adaptive cruise control to the magnetic adjustable shocks. The only system I might question the reliability of is the air suspension - although it's only on the luxury model, so very few have it. I ran the same system in my 5th gen for a while. I actually really like a lot of aspects of it. But I would not count on it for a long range expedition or something like that. IMO air suspension really has no place in that scenario. It's just more prone to failure than simple coil springs.

Poor tech reliability is generally the result of poor quality engineering or poor quality manufacturing. Every switch, wire, ECU, etc. should last for 20-30 years without fault if it's designed properly and manufactured properly.

 

[brtnstrns]

I would gladly take the entire tech suite from the GX460 and put it in my 4Runner. I would have no hesitation on the reliability of durability of any of the systems from adaptive cruise control to the magnetic adjustable shocks. The only system I might question the reliability of is the air suspension - although it's only on the luxury model, so very few have it. I ran the same system in my 5th gen for a while. I actually really like a lot of aspects of it. But I would not count on it for a long range expedition or something like that. IMO air suspension really has no place in that scenario. It's just more prone to failure than simple coil springs.

Poor tech reliability is generally the result of poor quality engineering or poor quality manufacturing. Every switch, wire, ECU, etc. should last for 20-30 years without fault if it's designed properly and manufactured properly.

Wait, you ran the Lexus air suspension in your 4Runner? Did you post about that anywhere? Sounds interesting.

 

[Jetboy]

Wait, you ran the Lexus air suspension in your 4Runner? Did you post about that anywhere? Sounds interesting.

Rear Airsprings (replace coils with full airbags)

I had them in for a while. I'd like to revisit the idea, but I've just been too busy lately to do it. The issue that ultimately caused me to remove them was that I had build in some lift height, but they were actually too tall already due to the slight difference in mounting flange on the air spring vs the coil spring. So they would bottom out at the pressure for normal ride height. And without any internal bump stops, it wasn't a functional solution to run them closer to OEM ride height like I wanted. So I had to keep them at too high of a ride height for my liking as a daily driver.

My intention if I get a chance to re-visit the air suspension is to modify the lower mounting so it has at least 3 more inches of up travel before bottoming out. The air springs have effectively unlimited droop - they're longer than any spring made for the 4Runner at full extention by probably 4 or 5 inches, so that end isn't a problem at all. But I need to modify them to allow full compression up to the regular frame mounted bump stops and/or also add the GX bump stops (they're taller and softer).

Ideally I may just get a set of custom air bags made. The lower portion from a GX470 bag put on with the top cap of a GX460 that fits in the OEM spring top location. The 4Runner was built to have air springs - so all the hardware fits already.

My other issue is with balancing. My home brew air system was designed for equal pressure, not equal height left/right. Basically it used a time delay circuit board I setup so that it would fill or drop pressure in the rear suspension with a wireless controller via a compressor manifold, but it would also have a time delay solenoid that connected the left and right hand circuits so when you went up or down after the adjusting overall height the left and right springs would equalize pressure, then the solenoid would close isolating each side. The problem is that it doesn't work to have the same pressure left/right. You need the sensors to adjust height like the OEM design and have totally independent left and right hand pressure systems. So that's the point at which I decided to pull the springs out and use coils for a while until I sort out the best solution for that. Probably the best bet would be to simply buy an entire GX air suspension setup from a salvage one with all the sensors, wiring harness, compressor, and springs. Then it should work pretty well.

 

[brtnstrns]

Rear Airsprings (replace coils with full airbags)

I had them in for a while. I'd like to revisit the idea, but I've just been too busy lately to do it. The issue that ultimately caused me to remove them was that I had build in some lift height, but they were actually too tall already due to the slight difference in mounting flange on the air spring vs the coil spring. So they would bottom out at the pressure for normal ride height. And without any internal bump stops, it wasn't a functional solution to run them closer to OEM ride height like I wanted. So I had to keep them at too high of a ride height for my liking as a daily driver.

My intention if I get a chance to re-visit the air suspension is to modify the lower mounting so it has at least 3 more inches of up travel before bottoming out. The air springs have effectively unlimited droop - they're longer than any spring made for the 4Runner at full extention by probably 4 or 5 inches, so that end isn't a problem at all. But I need to modify them to allow full compression up to the regular frame mounted bump stops and/or also add the GX bump stops (they're taller and softer).

Ideally I may just get a set of custom air bags made. The lower portion from a GX470 bag put on with the top cap of a GX460 that fits in the OEM spring top location. The 4Runner was built to have air springs - so all the hardware fits already.

My other issue is with balancing. My home brew air system was designed for equal pressure, not equal height left/right. Basically it used a time delay circuit board I setup so that it would fill or drop pressure in the rear suspension with a wireless controller via a compressor manifold, but it would also have a time delay solenoid that connected the left and right hand circuits so when you went up or down after the adjusting overall height the left and right springs would equalize pressure, then the solenoid would close isolating each side. The problem is that it doesn't work to have the same pressure left/right. You need the sensors to adjust height like the OEM design and have totally independent left and right hand pressure systems. So that's the point at which I decided to pull the springs out and use coils for a while until I sort out the best solution for that. Probably the best bet would be to simply buy an entire GX air suspension setup from a salvage one with all the sensors, wiring harness, compressor, and springs. Then it should work pretty well.

That's awesome you attempted to make that work. I'd definitely look forward to seeing your progress if you ever decide to go through with that plan.

 

[scanny]

These threads always crack me up. Bring back the chokes, carbs, and 4 speed transmissions. Why does this thing even have an FM radio, bucket seats, or a screen on the dash? Too complicated.

Or we can just accept the fact that Toyota decided to maximize their profit margins over 4Runner features. Those saying 4Rs have always been 'Old' seem to forget that the 4th Gen was really quite modern for it's time and the jump to the 5th Gen saw the bean counters remove features like the power liftgate and new, unreliable, technologies like projector beam headlights. Reflectors are just that much more reliable people!

Old <> Reliable. It's just old. Toyota makes PLENTY of modern, powerful, drivetrains for their other cars and SUVs. Some of these powertrains are even turbocharged and apparently Toyota is content that these power plants meet their standards.

The Bronco, Gladiator, Jimmy/AT4, are going to start to taking customers if Toyota continues to neglect the 4R to avoid development costs. 10s 0-60 and 18- MPG just will not cut it in the 2020s.

Personally I would take reliability over latest high tech. The more complicated the system is the more chances it breaks and it will be hard to fix. It's no big deal when you commute to work or do grocery shopping, but when you far from places you have cell phone reception you need something that can get you back without issues. If cutting edge stuff is absolutely reliable - same as old and proven stuff - then sure, bring it in. Another thing that I willing to pay a price for reliability but I don't want to pay for most of that new high tech I will never use. I don't use phone when I drive, I don't need blind spot assistance or laser cruise control or power liftgate or other stuff which doesn't make much sense for awake and not distracted drivers.

 

[Badlizard]

I traded in a '17 Rav4 Limited on my '13 4Runner. I had all the bells & whistles. I did like the adaptive cruise, that was nice. No use for automatic dim on the headlights though. In spite of having the full-load of tech, it STILL didn't have full LED lighting, which I find absolutely appalling on what's supposedly an otherwise "high-tech" vehicle.

 

[CougarHound]

Once my 3rd Gen dies (probably never gonna happen) I'll probably buy the VW Atlas. For me safety has become a priority over offroad and the laser welded Atlas is the safest thing you can get now. I figure I'll get used to the VW reliability....Especially with all the crazy ass Boston drivers around here.

 

[honda250xtitan]

I don't want any of that soccer mom crap. , not as rolling living rooms.

Tell that to the overlanders

 

[Jetboy]

Once my 3rd Gen dies (probably never gonna happen) I'll probably buy the VW Atlas. For me safety has become a priority over offroad and the laser welded Atlas is the safest thing you can get now. I figure I'll get used to the VW reliability....Especially with all the crazy ass Boston drivers around here.

The RX350 is statistically the safest SUV based on the empirical data of driver deaths per mile driven. You can look it up on the IIHS website. They collect and publish that data. The Atlas isn't old enough for enough years of data to show up yet though.

What really stands out is that SUVs in generally are a lot safer than cars of any size, configuration, or price range. And that luxury SUVs are usually a significant safety increase from non-luxury models. And basically all newer vehicles are significantly better than the mid 2000's or earlier. So safety can vary a lot between various years and models. The other standout to me just browsing through is that FCA products are pretty terrible in almost every category.

Incidentally I remember when these statistics first came out the 3rd gen 4Runner was a headliner because it was compared to a Jimmy /s10 blazer and for every single death in a 4Runner there were 25 in a Jimmy/Blazer after adjusting for miles driven. It was the largest variation in vehicle safety in a class in the study.

 

[CharlesNellis]

At least we get rear disc brakes.

 

[1jzgte]

low tech also means more profit margin for Toyota

Why else would you take a base model vehicle, splash on some colors and shiny bits, then market it as a 'TRD PRO' and sell it with the highest price tag? :behindsofa:

I believe the 4Runner will be gaining tech at the slowest rate possible that keeps sales figures going well

exactly!
New tech means more money to spend on product development and design. Hundreds and hundreds of dollars of engineering to make shit fit nicely. Now, if the 4runner is still making lots of money for Toyota in its current form, why would toyota **** w/ it? Toyota is still able to make an assload of money from this vehicle w/o moving a finger. That's why its still "low tech"

 

[83Mule]

I don't give 2 shits about the reliability OF the tech.......it's the fact I don't WANT it! Let the Highlander crowd sweat all the latest Gadgets. Toyota should offer the SR-5 as the simple model without the fluff always, instead of letting the ''Junk'' like Sense invade all models. Leave the Limited for the Tech and safety folks....

 

[CougarHound]

The RX350 is statistically the safest SUV based on the empirical data of driver deaths per mile driven. You can look it up on the IIHS website. They collect and publish that data. The Atlas isn't old enough for enough years of data to show up yet though.

What really stands out is that SUVs in generally are a lot safer than cars of any size, configuration, or price range. And that luxury SUVs are usually a significant safety increase from non-luxury models. And basically all newer vehicles are significantly better than the mid 2000's or earlier. So safety can vary a lot between various years and models. The other standout to me just browsing through is that FCA products are pretty terrible in almost every category.

Incidentally I remember when these statistics first came out the 3rd gen 4Runner was a headliner because it was compared to a Jimmy /s10 blazer and for every single death in a 4Runner there were 25 in a Jimmy/Blazer after adjusting for miles driven. It was the largest variation in vehicle safety in a class in the study.

Yes that's true...But it's also true that the Smartcar has really high safety ratings. If you compare side impact intrusion neasurements you'll see that the VW has about 32cm of space left after getting tboned. Which is the highest number ever recorded. I think side impact numbers and weight will tell you the most about how safe a car is. The statistics may just indicate that only old people like RX350s which is why nobody dies in them.

Also, I think the introduction of traction control reduced rollover deaths by a significant amount....I try not to drive like an idiot so that doesn't reallybother me so much.

Side Impact Safety: Volkswagen Atlas Safest SUV of 2018 | The Car Crash Detective

 

[teotwaki]

My old 2005 4th Gen went a bit over 240,000 miles in 13 years without a failure of any of the tech or drive train. Only replaced a radiator and right front wheel bearing. Computers, fuel pump, alternator, ignition, trans, transfer case, engine, diffs, etc. were all original when it sold.

I wanted a 5th gen since it was pretty much unchanged underneath the body and should easily last as long as my 4th gen did..

 

[CougarHound]

At least we get rear disc brakes.

:kiss: