Thoughts on 2010 model

[GMZ]

Have you been under a rock for the past year? The economy has been in a recession and it's now coming out of it. All the financial indicators are trending upwards now, including the stock markets. There will be no economic collapse in the U.S.

Get over it.

This mess were in -whatever you want to call it- has certainly influenced the auto companies, that much is evident. Less choices in the line-up are here to stay and will get worse before they get better imo. What choices we do have will be driven mainly by economic factors (ie 4cyl 4R).
[/on topic]

I wouldnt say collapse (yet) but were about to head in for the second half of the W. How deep that one will be is anyones guess. Were not sustainably recovering, a rising stock market certainly doesnt reflect a recovery.

Which economic indicators exactly? To keep related somewhat- auto sales are down, what 20% in Sep? C4C drew forward too much demand so now auto sales will reflect that. Also consumer credit contracted 10 bil and non revolving (car) debt contracted 2 bil (not too bad but kept afloat by C4C) in August. Thats after a 20 bil contraction in July. If the consumer isnt spending (or even worse for the economy, saving!) how can we recover? Consumers are 70% of the economy. Unemployment is still increasing.

ETA: Ive been noticing some deflation in food and energy prices, deflation ftw!

 

[ToyTech99]

This mess were in -whatever you want to call it- has certainly influenced the auto companies, that much is evident. Less choices in the line-up are here to stay and will get worse before they get better imo. What choices we do have will be driven mainly by economic factors (ie 4cyl 4R).
[/on topic]

I wouldnt say collapse (yet) but were about to head in for the second half of the W. How deep that one will be is anyones guess. Were not sustainably recovering, a rising stock market certainly doesnt reflect a recovery.

Which economic indicators exactly? To keep related somewhat- auto sales are down, what 20% in Sep? C4C drew forward too much demand so now auto sales will reflect that. Also consumer credit contracted 10 bil and non revolving (car) debt contracted 2 bil (not too bad but kept afloat by C4C) in August. Thats after a 20 bil contraction in July. If the consumer isnt spending (or even worse for the economy, saving!) how can we recover? Consumers are 70% of the economy. Unemployment is still increasing.

ETA: Ive been noticing some deflation in food and energy prices, deflation ftw!

Unemployment is ALWAYS the last thing to recover after a recession. If you look at history, you'll see that is absolutely true. BTW, everyone was predicting that we'd exceed 10% unemployment. But in fact it has been holding steady at under 10% for months now. Keep in mind that inflation usually hovers around 4% in the U.S. even in the best of times. That's considered normal....we'll never have a period of time where unemployment is zero. That's impossible

Car sales went through the roof during the "cash for clunkers" program. This indicates pent up demand, another positive indicator. Of course sales declined after the program ended. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Don't forget that the Fed believes the economy is starting to pull out of the recession either. They already stated that they will start to take steps toward normal economic policy.

Housing prices are beginning to increase. My own house gained about $100K in value over the last few months. I live in an area with extremely high real estate prices, so that kind of gain is not very extreme. But still, it's another positive indicator.

Stocks are up. We're close to a 10,000 Dow Jones Industrial Average.

Look here if you want to do your own research:
http://www.economicindicators.gov/

 

[pipspeak]

*** One last thing, the whole navigation system issue is pretty outrageous. They want $2,000 bucks for this system they are forcing on you, when we all know you would be way better off with an iPhone and 2 years of ATT service for about the same $2,000.00, plus you would get 75,000 apps and a cell phone for free. In dash navigation systems make no sense and I bet they just had a warehouse full of them then needed to dump so thats why you can't say no to navigation. Rant off.

Agreed... what does KDSS have remotely to do with navigation (and crappy DVD-based nav, at that)? Why link those two options? That's simply cynical IMO.

I could understand if they offered a cool off-roading topo nav system, however.

 

[V8 AWD 4EVR]

Toytech99, you are very optimistic to believe the economy is in recovery.

In 6-12 months we will know for sure.

However, unemployment is still increasing quite fast. It has not been "holding steady" it has been getting worse and will exceed 10% shortly.

The President said unemployment would get as high as 8.5% so thats not right to say "everyone was predicting 10%+." Maybe if you look at what they said last week and not last winter.

I am still very concerned when I hear what friends, clients, and neighbors tell me and I believe this could be a very poor holiday season for retailers, manufacturers, etc.

Sorry for thread drift, but it was my thread!

P.S. I have to add that Cash for Clunkers was one of the most wasteful, poorly conceived programs ever created. It is shameful, and in 10 or 20 years it will be the punchline of an old joke. It is beyond ridiculous. And the program did not reflect any "pent up demand" for vehicles. It took taxpayer money and GAVE it to people who could already afford to buy a new car (meaning they had money and were credit worthy), and it destroyed perfectly functioning assets instead of putting them into useful service. It was a give away of tax money to the UAW and the auto companies, and the irony is it will hurt them instead of help them when the dust settles.

 

[Atlanta_man]

http://www.frontlinethoughts.com/gateway.asp

enter any bogus email to read the article (Oct 9 - Killing the Goose)

the steady rise of the world's standard of living is a thing of the past

 

[GMZ]

Ill refrain from taking this OT anymore than I already have. I posted a thread/poll about the economy, have at it.

On topic-I love my V8

 

[ToyTech99]

Toytech99, you are very optimistic to believe the economy is in recovery.

It's not just me. Listen to the news. Read the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times. In fact, as I'm typing this I'm listening to newsradio 880 in NY and they're reporting that the recession is OVER. That doesn't mean everything is back to the way it was, it simply means that the economy is beginning to grow again and we should see positive gains in the future. Keep in mind that our economy ALWAYS goes through peaks and valleys if you were to chart it out. It's a normal part of the cycle.

Read the story in the hyperlink below. It gives a fair assessment over the state of the economy currently and over the next year or so:

http://www.wcbs880.com/topic/ap_news.php?story=AP/APTV/National/a/a/US--EconomicRecovery

However, unemployment is still increasing quite fast. It has not been "holding steady" it has been getting worse and will exceed 10% shortly.

The President said unemployment would get as high as 8.5% so thats not right to say "everyone was predicting 10%+." Maybe if you look at what they said last week and not last winter.

8.5%? Unemployment has been in the 9% range for quite a few months now. And yes, it has been holding steady. That doesn't mean that it has been exactly the same every month or even every quarter. It simply means that we've been in the same place (percentage wise) for a while now and it is not increasing. Everyone was predicting more than 10% unemployment. It was all over the news. What they said last week doesn't matter because a week-by-week prediction is impossible to measure, even by the BLS.gov standards. Anyway, the point is that the doomsday crowd knew for sure that we'd go into a DEPRESSION and that we were in for a 1930's era all over again. Yet somehow things are starting to get better already.

I am still very concerned when I hear what friends, clients, and neighbors tell me and I believe this could be a very poor holiday season for retailers, manufacturers, etc.

Sorry for thread drift, but it was my thread!

P.S. I have to add that Cash for Clunkers was one of the most wasteful, poorly conceived programs ever created. It is shameful, and in 10 or 20 years it will be the punchline of an old joke. It is beyond ridiculous. And the program did not reflect any "pent up demand" for vehicles. It took taxpayer money and GAVE it to people who could already afford to buy a new car (meaning they had money and were credit worthy), and it destroyed perfectly functioning assets instead of putting them into useful service. It was a give away of tax money to the UAW and the auto companies, and the irony is it will hurt them instead of help them when the dust settles.

Cash for Clunkers absolutely did reflect a pent up demand for automobiles. You have to understand pent up demand. People were holding off on major purchases (like automobiles) because they didn't know what to expect from the recession. Fear stopped many of those who did not absolutely NEED to buy a new vehicle. Instead, people started to spend more money on repairs to their old vehicles. On the other side of the fence, you had people who were planning on buying a new vehicle in the next 6 to 12 months. Anyway, the demand already existed on both sides, but the economic situation had people holding off and keeping their money in their pockets. Along comes the Cash for Clunkers program and all of a sudden everybody jumps on the opportunity to save a few thousand dollars on a new vehicle by trading in their old one for more than it's market value. It's that pent up demand for new vehicles that flooded the showrooms. People were not buying cars at the usual pace before the program was started. If you still don't believe me, just google "cash for clunkers pent up demand" and you'll find a bunch of information.[/QUOTE]

 

[GMZ]

Snip

You should pop into my thread so we can discuss without derailing this one :

 

[RonMAIDEN]

fftopic:

Ok,let's talk about the '10 4Runner again please.

 

[austntexan]

I don't get it. . .

. . . I really don't.

The 2010 4Runner is a full $5,000 more than the previous gen and $10,000 more than the FJ?:wow2: Fail.

Why call this thing a 4Runner at all. It's another 450lbs heavier than 4th gen? C'mon Toyota. Plus, to me, it's got such a Nissan look to it. Maybe it will grow on me but it seems they're heading in the wrong direction.

Is it possible they're moving the 4Runner like they did with the Land Cruiser. Those were actually affordable once, now. . . no so much. Every rich, yuppy soccer mom will have a new 4Runner as they'll be the only ones who can afford them.:violin:

All the 3rd world get the coolest 4WD off roaders with a diesel option and we get stuck with this expensive behemoth? Put a Humvee tag on the grill and be done with it Toyota.

Looks like my next ride will be an old 302 Bonco AND I'm keeping my 4th gen until the wheels fall off dammit! :moon:

 

[JBgotM]

let's see...

-uglier
-heavier
-no V8
-many features I like now are removed
-"upgrades" I don't want
-more expensive

why in the hell would I buy it?

 

[RonMAIDEN]

Show me where a new comparably equipped FJ is $10k cheaper than a 4Runner. I'm still waiting to see actual dealer prices instead of MSRP and speculation of said prices. I saw a new Limited posted here for $35k which is what my lesser equipped 3rd gen cost over 10 years ago.

I simply think Toyota is narrowing their market with the 4Runner and they will lose some buyers and gain others. I like the direction Toyota is going with the new 4Runner and making it maybe a little less to the liking of soccer moms everywhere. The 4th gens did get a little soft and alot of people got used to it.

There's just a lot of haters just like when the 4th gen came out and the hate was there too but there weren't all these forums out there to complain about it.:wink2:

 

[V8 AWD 4EVR]

I agree that 4th gens got a lot of criticism in 2002/2003 when they came out.

However, I only recall criticism of the looks of the vehicle, especially the too thick black plastic wheel well flares (btw, I like the 2010 new ones on the Trail) and of the increased size (gas was high and soccer mom was the new voting block and Time magazine man of the year was "The American Soldier" believe it or not). No one criticized the engines, the mechanical components and 4WD system.

The GVWR on the 2003 V8 AWD was 6005 lbs., so it did qualify for business deduction under Section 179 of IRS Code and rules.

The 4th Gen V8 AWD was the peak of this model, and without the improved V8, even the Canadian "fully featured" rig is still a step down with the V6.

I saw the 2010 Limited that was offered at 34K, and if that is the price, then that is a very square deal. I believe it will be more like 38K.

If I was rich I would buy a few 2009 V8's and store them next to my jet, my various boats, and my collection of muscle cars. Probably be a great investment and its nice to have a few spares!

eace:

 

[austntexan]

Compare

You can go onto toyos Corp site build out comparably equiped models and have them side by side(including 2009 4th gen)to see the masssive price increase,nearly 30%? That level of increase is just nuts. It's not a 4Runner any more, it's the new Land Cruiser.

 

[RonMAIDEN]

A fully loaded 4th gen can top out near $45k so they aren't real cheap either but I'm sure there will be plenty of nicely equipped 5th gens available for under the $35k mark once the dealers get them rolling into showrooms. It seems to be a panic among 4th gen owners that want even more but if Toyota wants to keep prices in line (remember our dollar is weak) than there has to be concessions made but the 5th gen still has some nice features and ones that make it still a top competitor in the off road market among current SUVs.

 

[austntexan]

You're probably right about that. I'm hopeful but I just paid off my 4Runner, I don't need to be looking at new toys dangit!

So, I'm ashamed to say I'm kindof liking the 5th gen little now that I've been looking at it a some more. Still, I'd like something a little lighter and a little 'less nice' if that makes any sense at all?

I agree with what some folks have said about the cladding on the 4th Gens, I was never really partial to it. I liked some of the plainer looking early 3rd Gens, the ones with sheet metal all the way down.

The front on the new one is going to take some getting used to, but I'm liking the side profile more and more. Maybe I was too quick with my judgement.

 

[vex]

re:

I'm going to have to get back on the original topic here and agree with that poster.

I've been driving a 97 pathfinder FOREVER and have been waiting for months to see what toyota would do with the 2010.

Now, I'd love to be that guy on the rocks driving over that kind of terrain, but I'm not. I'm like that first poster - I have some plain dirt roads, and snow, but mostly that driving is on pavement.

I DON'T want an ugly highlander - and i still like the look of ht 2010. But I refuse to spend 40k+ on a limited, just for the locking center.

Why would Toyota alienate my guess is over 90% of 4runner drivers out there by not offering full time on their SR5? (i understand the te)

So now I continue to drive the pathfinder, trying to decide if it will go over 200k as I wait for 2011 hopefully to get a full time sr5? Will it happen?

Don't make me test drive that highlander.

 

[mikeync]

you guys just have the wrong perspective. It is not more expensive than other cars - it is at least $10K CHEAPER than the next GX coming out

 

[gmtaylor3]

Interior Thoughts

Just wanted to share some thoughts on the 4runner interior. Saw one at the Bham car show. Couldn't drive it, but they had both a limited and a base model and I spent a good deal of time focusing on what I liked and disliked.

This vehicle was going to be my first 4runner, having (unwisely) given my Xterra to my college-bound son. (The Xterra, by the way, an offroad model, is an incredible vehicle.)

As for the 4runner, I just can't figure out the logic of some of the interior features. Others have commented on how the FWD options miss the point of an offroad vehicle, but the interior fine-tuning is similar. The ridiculous sliding tray in the back takes up three or four inches of depth in the cargo area and creates an area that will be a nightmare to keep clean. Wouldn't you think they would design it for tough use, maybe even put a vinyl surface back there? Instead you get a sliding carpeted surface that will trap dirt in impossible to reach locations. There are also a couple of intented trays over the wheel wells that will hold absolutely nothing. They're too shallow to keep anything in. Just totally useless.

There are a couple of shallow pockets on the doors as well, up even with the door handle, that appear to have no use. They're not deep enough to keep whatever is in them from sliding out.

The only other issue I had with the vehicle was the seats. Since it was at a car show, I had just sat in a Nissan Murano and in an Xterra, and the 4runner seat was a big disappointment. Seemed to be lacking in lateral support and just didn't wrap you in the way the other seats did.

Overall, the whole interior was a disappointment. The exterior, however, looks great.

On balance, I have gone from "gotta have one" to "under consideration". Having read the other comments on the board, I am inclined to look at a used 4runner. Which of the older models is most like the new Trail edition?

 

[Uneek]

Which of the older models is most like the new Trail edition?

For 4th gens:
The 2009 Trail Edition. That one has the rear diff locker. It does not have CRAWL or the Multi-Terrain the 2010 TE has.

The rest from 2003-09 has the same mechnical drive train. 4WD V6 having multi-mode full time 4WD and ability to go into 2WD. 4WD V8 is full time 4WD. In summary, the V6 and V8 has the same 4WD system--the V6 has the ability to be in 2WD.

2003-04 V6 has the 4-speed auto, V8 is non-VVT-i. 2005-09 V6 has the 5-speed auto, V8 has VVT-i. The V6 always had VVT-i. The V8 always had the 5-speed auto.

Some 3rd gens have the rear locker as well. I don't know the specifics for the 3rd though.