Thoughts on these eBay uniball UCAs??

[Scott@Hightech]

I generally agree with this. To add a little clarity - simply because this is actually my day job - this is a matter of patent protection rather than copyright or trademark. Often the various terms are interchanged. In the instant case there is nothing novel about these upper control arms that I can see reasonably leading to a patent that is defensible. So IMO you can probably copy at will the tube type UCAs. You cannot claim they are another brand - then it's a trademark issue.

That makes more sense to me, Im not well versed in the patent/trademark/copyright area, I just fix cars.

The geometry on all these after market arms are the same...there isn't a whole lot of room to make these different than the next.

Im not sure how your measuring the geometry. And yes there are certain parameters that have to be met in order for a control arm to FIT on to the truck and have it driveable. HOWEVER, these arms are NOT all the same. I have installed and aligned 5 gen 4runners specifally with every brand of UCA except these Chinese ones. Icon tubular and total chaos were very close in the actual initial alignment(+2deg +caster). the Camburg and all pro didn't provide as much positive caster and were closer to stock arm specs(newer revisions may be different). I mentioned my experience on the Ebay tundra arms above. the icon Billet arms While a perfect alignment can be obtained, would benefit from the uniball being moved slightly inward(-0.5 deg camber more) so that the arms aren't maxed out on caster adjustment). SPC arms are the most adjustable and have great geometry since it has such a huge ranger with the adjustable ball joint.

That's just the dimensions that are variable, not even discussing welding, materials, gusseting, uniball/ball joint size and construction and bushing design and material.

There are reasons there are more than one company, If one company made a perfect arm for every truck and purpose and it was cheap. There would be no point in having competition since there would be no need.

IMO, that is exactly what this is. The big companies like AP,TC, and Cam sell the real deal, manufactured properly, quality controlled product and this guy is selling the bulk order ones.

I have some experience in high end sports gear such as snowboards/skis and wakeboards/slalom skis. While these arent made in a sweatshop in China, there are a lot of reputable companies that out source the production to Asian countries. What you find in a real and reputable ski shop are what is called "A" quality. These are, in a sense, perfect. Perfect in specs, function, and looks and are properly inspected and marked as so. What you find in small discount stores and big box shops are sometimes "B" quality. These are inspected and marked as perfect in spec and function but there is some sort of blemish. Maybe the graphic is slightly crooked or miscolored or other small items. However the piece is deemed safe to use beyond the cosmetic blemish (think "scratch and dent" sections of online part shops). These "B" quality products are a little cheaper to the retailer and in turn they tend to sell them cheaper to the buyer. I always ordered "B" quality products for my personal use because they were cheaper and we could never find the blemish that deemed them "B" quality. To take it further, youd have small knockoff/child companies that would gain access to the molds and specs of the boards or skis the big guys made. These would typically be made in massive orders and sold to the WalMarts/Bass Pros/etc. While these had the same shapes as the top of the line guys, they usually lacked the extra flair such as a carbon core, steel fins, fine tune adjustments, fancy graphics, etc, the list goes on.

So to come to a final point, this guy has spec'd his UCAs exactly to the dimensions of the big companies but they lack the quality control and general flair in the fit and finish. In his case, the bushings may need to be replaced or adjusted sooner, they grease the uniball instead of dry lube, the zerks are low quality, and it doesnt come with a cool sticker on it.

I agree with Scott and others that these are definitely a lower quality. And while they measure the same geometry, dimensions, and guage, I would like to see proof that they are actually 4130. He's obviously cut his costs down by not including the flair I mentioned above. As long as the important factors match up with arm material/guage, welds, and uniball, the easy/cost effective items can be cured by the non lamen. By purchasing a handful of zerks, cleaning out the grease and replacing with dry lube, and maybe getting some new bushings JIC yours arrive like AJONESNV's did... you have an extremely solid arm for an extremely low cost. What I dont get and scares me about these is how a few parts (~$20-$50) and some quality measures can allow this guy to sell them for $250 a pair and make a profit while the big dogs are selling their "perfect" ones for over twice that price. On the other hand, skis/boards are a 100% markup from dealer cost (mainly because they are seasonal products and changed each year so retailers end up dumping them after the season). UCAs dont change every year so if this theory is correct, the big companies are continuously making huge margins on these products simply because we as the consumer think the more expensive it is, the better it is and why would we not spend the extra couple hundred bucks for the safety of ourselves and our 35k trucks. Its all business in the end and there are so many unknowns and now my head hurts...GREAT

If this guy and his product is legit, I commend him for offering it. If AjonesNV and the other guys running these and "fixing" these are finding no issues I commend them as well for trying something that isnt the norm.

If these end up actually being a POS and causes damage or injury due to failure... well then F that guy :flipoff::boxer: and we all move on. I wish I had the knowledge and cajones these guys do to purchase something like this and use them. :cheers:

Cheers

Well said. I think this is the real take away from this thread.

 

[aha2988]

Im not sure how your measuring the geometry. And yes there are certain parameters that have to be met in order for a control arm to FIT on to the truck and have it driveable. HOWEVER, these arms are NOT all the same. I have installed and aligned 5 gen 4runners specifally with every brand of UCA except these Chinese ones. Icon tubular and total chaos were very close in the actual initial alignment(+2deg +caster). the Camburg and all pro didn't provide as much positive caster and were closer to stock arm specs(newer revisions may be different). I mentioned my experience on the Ebay tundra arms above. the icon Billet arms While a perfect alignment can be obtained, would benefit from the uniball being moved slightly inward(-0.5 deg camber more) so that the arms aren't maxed out on caster adjustment). SPC arms are the most adjustable and have great geometry since it has such a huge ranger with the adjustable ball joint.

That's just the dimensions that are variable, not even discussing welding, materials, gusseting, uniball/ball joint size and construction and bushing design and material.

FWIW, One of the members here running these showed 5° positive caster on initial readings sitting on a 2.5" daystar lift.


is the picture he posted in the 4th gen thread

 

[Scott@Hightech]

FWIW, One of the members here running these showed 5° positive caster on initial readings sitting on a 2.5" daystar lift.

View attachment 147983
is the picture he posted in the 4th gen thread

That's actually not bad other than the negative camber, ideally it should be closer to zero and err on the positive side, but I have set a few slightly negative with no adverse effects.( -.10 deg)

 

[Daily-runner]

That's actually not bad other than the negative camber, ideally it should be closer to zero and err on the positive side, but I have set a few slightly negative with no adverse effects.( -.10 deg)

Unless you are off-roading a lot why would you want a positive camber on a "mostly" street driven truck? In honestly I prefer a negative for a safer turning radius, especially on a raised truck. This is a honest question on to why you would err on the positive side.

 

[Scott@Hightech]

Unless you are off-roading a lot why would you want a positive camber on a "mostly" street driven truck? In honestly I prefer a negative for a safer turning radius, especially on a raised truck. This is a honest question on to why you would err on the positive side.

Mostly due to tire wear characteristics, I have expirenced the best tire wear and handling at the specs ive stated in numerous threads. There will always be people that disagree for what ever reason and there are always people that have different results. Unless your running more toe in than factory I wouldn't run that much camber as it could cause accelerated tire wear on the inside edge. whether it does or doesn't if im aligning a customers truck I want to KNOW its not going to wear the tires adversely.

 

[Daily-runner]

Mostly due to tire wear characteristics, I have expirenced the best tire wear and handling at the specs ive stated in numerous threads. There will always be people that disagree for what ever reason and there are always people that have different results. Unless your running more toe in than factory I wouldn't run that much camber as it could cause accelerated tire wear on the inside edge. whether it does or doesn't if im aligning a customers truck I want to KNOW its not going to wear the tires adversely.

Well you can say the same about tire wear for a positive camber but on the outside wall. I do agree for a daily driven vehicle that the best camber would have it at 0, but I usually err to the negative for safety reasons knowing I'm less likely to flip the truck if anything ever happens and I need to make a quick maneuver.

 

[aha2988]

Well you can say the same about tire wear for a positive camber but on the outside wall. I do agree for a daily driven vehicle that the best camber would have it at 0, but I usually err to the negative for safety reasons knowing I'm less likely to flip the truck if anything ever happens and I need to make a quick maneuver.

I don't believe camber has anything to do with body roll in a roll over situation..

pretty sure thats involved with speed and your center of gravity..

So the purpose of negative camber and the argument behind it would be to improve cornering and traction during a turn. When you travel through a turn, the geometry of your tire relative to the frame is changed. Durring the turn the tires actually gain positive camber (when set to zero initially, you can see this for yourself by going out to your driveway turn your steering wheel all the way to one side and note which direction your tires are leaning. leaning away from the vehicle at the top is positive camber, leaning in is negative)

So if you put a -.5° to -1.5° (application varies) of camber into the alignment, and go through the same turn, the positive camber gained thus counter acts the negative camber set by the alignment creating a flat contact patch across the total tread width of the tire, while the car is in the turn and needs the most horizontal traction.

So for racing purposes the reasons for negative camber are obvious. However for street purposes, the argument is that tire wear is greater going through turns on the road than it is traveling in a straight line, thus adding a slight amount of negative camber will in turn improve the lifespan of the tire.

I think the results would depend on if your daily drive is full of twists and turns verses a few miles of straight roads.

 

[Scott@Hightech]

Well you can say the same about tire wear for a positive camber but on the outside wall. I do agree for a daily driven vehicle that the best camber would have it at 0, but I usually err to the negative for safety reasons knowing I'm less likely to flip the truck if anything ever happens and I need to make a quick maneuver.

Actually With positive camber you can set the toe closer to zero. this will result in a much more neutral feeling. Also with as stiff as the truck suspensions are most of the "contact patch transfer" is done by the sidewall of the tires. which is why you want a more neutral position on the tires.

I don't believe camber has anything to do with body roll in a roll over situation..

pretty sure thats involved with speed and your center of gravity..

So the purpose of negative camber and the argument behind it would be to improve cornering and traction during a turn. When you travel through a turn, the geometry of your tire relative to the frame is changed. Durring the turn the tires actually gain positive camber (when set to zero initially, you can see this for yourself by going out to your driveway turn your steering wheel all the way to one side and note which direction your tires are leaning. leaning away from the vehicle at the top is positive camber, leaning in is negative)

So if you put a -.5° to -1.5° (application varies) of camber into the alignment, and go through the same turn, the positive camber gained thus counter acts the negative camber set by the alignment creating a flat contact patch across the total tread width of the tire, while the car is in the turn and needs the most horizontal traction.

So for racing purposes the reasons for negative camber are obvious. However for street purposes, the argument is that tire wear is greater going through turns on the road than it is traveling in a straight line, thus adding a slight amount of negative camber will in turn improve the lifespan of the tire.

I think the results would depend on if your daily drive is full of twists and turns verses a few miles of straight roads.

Very well put, lol I cant shoot any holes in this post. However, camber alone doesn't wear tires. My bmw( see below) had -3 degrees of camber in the rear with super stretched tires. I had no adverse tire wear. But It took me 3-4 alignments to get it to that point.

Back on topic. You get what you pay for, but sometimes you get lucky.

 

[Daily-runner]

All correct but as you stated having a negative camber will give you better traction in a turn. Being a family man and some dumb...ash person cuts me off I want to be able to quickly maneuver and not fear more about flipping over or not - because of less traction. :lookout: It happens all the time... Stupid H-town drivers.

LOL, yea I know some about racing too. Got a 95 VW GTi in my garage telling me everyday to put it back together and track it. Everyday for 5yrs now. LMAO

Good talk on Camber though. Enjoyed the refresher course on camber, toe and caster.

 

[SPENK05]

I don't know anything on alignment compared to you guys, but I feel like there are so many possibilities and variables to different suspensions and tires that affect one alignment to another.

Back on topic. You get what you pay for, but sometimes you get lucky.

I'm tempted to get these in addition to my camburgs just to see for myself what they are about. Set them up on the truck and get them aligned at a reputable off-road shop for experimental use. If they work, run them and keep a close eye on them. I mean, at worst they can be returned within 60 days and I don't have to pay a dime for 6 mos with their payment deal. They could even be an emergency swap out if you're in a pickle and need something to get you home and until your better ones comes in. But hey, maybe I just see the good in everything and the world is filled with butterflies and unicorns haha

 

[Daily-runner]

I was very skeptical too but reading ajonesnv review and weighing the cost... I'm willing to try it out too. I'm just waiting for it to be warm outside before getting everything and putting them on.

I was going to get the SPC since I own a set on my Tundra and never had problems with it but with all the negatives on them lately in the 4runner forums has me thinking twice on them.

 

[SPENK05]

[MENTION=73515]ajonesnv[/MENTION] I know the seller claims they are 4130 but doesnt state this on the ebay page. From your findings and experience, can you proclaim that these are actually 4130?

 

[Jeremy556]

I was very skeptical too but reading ajonesnv review and weighing the cost... I'm willing to try it out too. I'm just waiting for it to be warm outside before getting everything and putting them on.

I was going to get the SPC since I own a set on my Tundra and never had problems with it but with all the negatives on them lately in the 4runner forums has me thinking twice on them.

Really? Having had and replaced the SPC arms, I would go SPC all day over the eBay knock offs. While SPC have had their problems, they are many years and revisions into their product. The eBay knock offs are in version 1 of a poorly executed copy and using inferior parts. I wouldn't use them if you paid me.

 

[Intruder]

Really? Having had and replaced the SPC arms, I would go SPC all day over the eBay knock offs. While SPC have had their problems, they are many years and revisions into their product. The eBay knock offs are in version 1 of a poorly executed copy and using inferior parts. I wouldn't use them if you paid me.

Agreed, and I have more right to have an aversion to SPC LR than most. I'll take LR arms over these eBay ones every time.

 

[Jeremy556]

Agreed, and I have more right to have an aversion to SPC LR than most. I'll take LR arms over these eBay ones every time.

Not sure if you have seen it or not, but there is a long thread in the 4th gen section on these you might want to check out.

 

[Intruder]

Well, I skimmed the thread from the failure post onwards and checked out that OverlandNV page. I don't really care much either way because I'm not exactly going to downgrade my TC UCAs any time soon, but there's no way I'd let a friend buy them. I'm no expert, but the welds look terrible even to my eye. Kind of curious why these guys seem to be slapping what looks like almost half a tube of grease on the uniballs. Great way to wear them out faster.

 

[ajonesnv]

[MENTION=73515]ajonesnv[/MENTION] I know the seller claims they are 4130 but doesnt state this on the ebay page. From your findings and experience, can you proclaim that these are actually 4130?

Only based on emails sent to other buyers. They posted them and their contact info in the thread on the 4th Gen section. I don't know of a way to tell visually, though I'm open to suggestions if there is a way.

 

[Jeremy556]

Well, I skimmed the thread from the failure post onwards and checked out that OverlandNV page. I don't really care much either way because I'm not exactly going to downgrade my TC UCAs any time soon, but there's no way I'd let a friend buy them. I'm no expert, but the welds look terrible even to my eye. Kind of curious why these guys seem to be slapping what looks like almost half a tube of grease on the uniballs. Great way to wear them out faster.

From what I've read, that's how they come. I'm guessing it is to keep those shoddy bearings from rusting apart before they make the trip across the pacific.

 

[Intruder]

From what I've read, that's how they come. I'm guessing it is to keep those shoddy bearings from rusting apart before they make the trip across the pacific.

Yeah, I saw on the OverlandNV page that he got his like that. At least he said he cleaned the grease off right away.

 

[SPENK05]

I feel like there were some guys saying the same thing about the SPC LRs during their failure hayday...

There has been only one failure with these arms and it was because they were installed not only upside down, but also swapped between driver/passenger! And it wasnt any of "terrible welds" that broke, nor the "shoddy bearing", or any other non-factual speculative defect yall claim these have. I have not claimed these to be perfect either, but damn, give something a chance even if it doesnt say Icon, Total Choas, AllPro, or Camburg and cost too much money. The claims of their crappyness are just that, claims. At least there are a few guys out there that have actually taken the time to inspect and run and review these arms to determine their TRUE capabilities. Every person that has purchased these have said the same thing, they arent perfect but they work great and have potential. Lets stop the speculation and get some real evidence that these suck. So far the only real evidence about these is that the arm itself is great and there are a few parts that need to be altered to work in great unison with the arm. You cant tell me that we dont play with our trucks, parts, and mods to make them work better than manufacturer spec. I see these as no different. A few tweaks and they are great. The only thing I question (simply because I cant prove it without having one in hand) is the actuality of the 4130 arm and the stainless uniball. Hence, why I stated Id be tempted to order a pair to inspect myself before making a claim.