Toyota: [Falling] Quality is Job One
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MicaBlue03
Member
Thirstiest truck fleet?
Did anybody do a double-take reading the phrase "they also have the thirstiest truck fleet on the market" in the original article?
Thirstier than GM? Ford? Dodge? IIRC, their trucks are typically 1-3 MPG better than the (approximately) equivalent domestics.
Am I missing something or is this a reason to discount the credibility and even-handedness of the writer?
In my opinion Toyota builds vehicles that are significantly higher in quality than the competition, on an average basis. There are exceptions and some problem areas, but they neither walk on water nor build an excessive amount of crap. They don't listen particularly well to customers.
One reason (but only one) modern cars of all kinds are having more problems is their increased complexity. I once tried to count all the motors in my 4Runner and was amazed. And I'm sure I missed a few.
Did anybody do a double-take reading the phrase "they also have the thirstiest truck fleet on the market" in the original article?
Thirstier than GM? Ford? Dodge? IIRC, their trucks are typically 1-3 MPG better than the (approximately) equivalent domestics.
Am I missing something or is this a reason to discount the credibility and even-handedness of the writer?
In my opinion Toyota builds vehicles that are significantly higher in quality than the competition, on an average basis. There are exceptions and some problem areas, but they neither walk on water nor build an excessive amount of crap. They don't listen particularly well to customers.
One reason (but only one) modern cars of all kinds are having more problems is their increased complexity. I once tried to count all the motors in my 4Runner and was amazed. And I'm sure I missed a few.
Koz
New member
Re: Thirstiest truck fleet?
The new GM pickup has a 1mpg better rating on the window tag. Yet, in real world comparos the new Tundra gets 1/2mpg more. Toyota has almost allways had better mpg. My IS can get over 30mpg on the highway (being good, which is almost impossible for me :biggrin2
with over 300hp.
Koz
MicaBlue03 said:
The new GM pickup has a 1mpg better rating on the window tag. Yet, in real world comparos the new Tundra gets 1/2mpg more. Toyota has almost allways had better mpg. My IS can get over 30mpg on the highway (being good, which is almost impossible for me :biggrin2
with over 300hp. Koz
RonMAIDEN
Super Moderator
Re: Re: Thirstiest truck fleet?
My friend could get just over 30mpg in his 700hp Supra on the highway and I got almost 35 ONCE across Nebraska in my 350hp Eclipse but what a waste of HP and fun.
Turbos are great gas savers if you can stay off the boost but those occasions were far and inbetween.
Koz said:
My IS can get over 30mpg on the highway (being good, which is almost impossible for me :biggrin2
Koz
My friend could get just over 30mpg in his 700hp Supra on the highway and I got almost 35 ONCE across Nebraska in my 350hp Eclipse but what a waste of HP and fun.
Turbos are great gas savers if you can stay off the boost but those occasions were far and inbetween.
RamThis
New member
Wow I havent heard of any of this before.
Can anyone tell me what the final decision was as to the cause of the "sludge" in those engines?? I've never seen an engine with sludge unless the owner was improperly maintaining it, or was using cheap, crappy oil like Pennzoil (a liquid candle really).
I'm an air cooled engine mechanic and see the different effects of various maintenance practices every day in these type engines, and it's amazing how different two identical engines can look when torn down and you ask the owner, what brand oils they used, and honestly how often was it changed. There is always a definite pattern that emerges the longer you work as a mechanic and see this for a living.
I know ALL manufacturers have their faults here and there, but I dont see how sludge in an engine can be anything short of poor maintenance or using sub-standard lubricants/filtration. Slap on a Pennzoil or Fram oil filter, fill it up with some Quaker state or Pennzoil lubricant, and yeah, you're asking for trouble! Unless there was a direct culprit in the engineering of the filtration or bypass check valve in the engine that cause it to constantly bypass the filter, but that's the only reason for dirty oil, other than the aforementioned reasons I listed. Not the engine's fault.
I dont use those oils in my LAWNMOWER, much less my 25K or more vehicle!!! I use exclusively Mobil-1 oil and filter in all my 4 cycle gasoline engines. I also keep Exxon Superflo conventional oil around for friends/family/neighbor's equipment, as from real world results from where I work as a mechanic, this oil seems to be one of the better dino oils.
Can anyone tell me what the final decision was as to the cause of the "sludge" in those engines?? I've never seen an engine with sludge unless the owner was improperly maintaining it, or was using cheap, crappy oil like Pennzoil (a liquid candle really).
I'm an air cooled engine mechanic and see the different effects of various maintenance practices every day in these type engines, and it's amazing how different two identical engines can look when torn down and you ask the owner, what brand oils they used, and honestly how often was it changed. There is always a definite pattern that emerges the longer you work as a mechanic and see this for a living.
I know ALL manufacturers have their faults here and there, but I dont see how sludge in an engine can be anything short of poor maintenance or using sub-standard lubricants/filtration. Slap on a Pennzoil or Fram oil filter, fill it up with some Quaker state or Pennzoil lubricant, and yeah, you're asking for trouble! Unless there was a direct culprit in the engineering of the filtration or bypass check valve in the engine that cause it to constantly bypass the filter, but that's the only reason for dirty oil, other than the aforementioned reasons I listed. Not the engine's fault.
I dont use those oils in my LAWNMOWER, much less my 25K or more vehicle!!! I use exclusively Mobil-1 oil and filter in all my 4 cycle gasoline engines. I also keep Exxon Superflo conventional oil around for friends/family/neighbor's equipment, as from real world results from where I work as a mechanic, this oil seems to be one of the better dino oils.
One of the possibilities I've read is that Toyota made the coolant passages in the engine tighter than usual in order to maximize fuel economy, and that this might contribute to sludging. Then again, I read this somewhere on the Internet...
It does seem pretty clear that some engines are more prone to sludge than others. I've read about similar problems with Chrysler's 2.7.
It does seem pretty clear that some engines are more prone to sludge than others. I've read about similar problems with Chrysler's 2.7.
peter78
Super Moderator
I have read about a few ideas.mkaresh said:
1.)Both the coolant and oil passages are too narrow.
2.)In the Seinna the indside bank of cylinders against the fire wall get too hot, lack of cooling.
3.)The power of the engines are getting more and more compared to the size. The engines work harder and harder. The 3.3 that replaces the 3.0 actually has less horse power.
4.)Being a Toyota, some owners (may of) slacked off on the oil changes. One person who posted a ton on Edmunds talked about going 25,000 miles on Amsoil. Amsoil didn't want to fix it and neither did Lexus, it was a Lexus, not a Toyota. He got so mad, Edmunds finally banned him. Toyota dealers started to recommend that Seinna owners start changing their oil every 3,000 miles. (now where have I heard that before. Maybe the old school of thought has some merit?) A lot of the owner squacked about the early oil change, but the dealers were trying to look out for everyone's concern. Edmunds finally had a new thread were the owners could talk directly to a Toyota representative. This was after Toyota extended the warranty and let some owners get their cars fixed. After about 2 weeks Edmunds shut down the thread because the owner were getting too mad.
Did they merely close the thread or actually make it no longer visible? I'd like to take a look at it.
The 3.3 didn't actually make less power than the 3.0. Instead, Toyota had to adopt more precise testing standards. Many Toyota engines suffered horsepower losses on paper but not in reality. The 3.0 simply didn't make the power they'd been claiming for it.
More horsepower does translate to more heat. If the cooling system isn't upgraded to deal with the extra heat, there could be problems.
The 3.3 didn't actually make less power than the 3.0. Instead, Toyota had to adopt more precise testing standards. Many Toyota engines suffered horsepower losses on paper but not in reality. The 3.0 simply didn't make the power they'd been claiming for it.
More horsepower does translate to more heat. If the cooling system isn't upgraded to deal with the extra heat, there could be problems.
RamThis
New member
I change my oil every 3K, may let it go to 4K if it still looks clean, using Mobil-1. I know they probably put cheapo oil in my 4Runner when they did the tune up prior to sale so I will change it when it hits 1K over to Mobil1.
Yeay I love Amsoil and thier "25K mile oil" BS. No one stops to think how much friggin particulate and combustion deposits get suspended in that shit that the filter does not catch. That's the biggest reason for changing oil on a regular interval, not because the oil's broken down and cannot adequately do it's job, it's because it's full of debris that will wear on the engine's bearing surfaces, and chemicals from combustion that are caustic to the metal inside your engine. Regardless of the oil's condition, it is contaminated and needs to be removed, along with the filter. Otherwise, your engine wil die a slow and early death.
People spend tons of money on a nice vehicle, and try to skimp on maintenance. Makes absolutely no sense. If you cant afford to buy oil/filters for the damn thing, then dont buy a 30K or more vehicle. Go buy a Civic, and then you'll have enough left over to maintain it right. :bash:
Yeay I love Amsoil and thier "25K mile oil" BS. No one stops to think how much friggin particulate and combustion deposits get suspended in that shit that the filter does not catch. That's the biggest reason for changing oil on a regular interval, not because the oil's broken down and cannot adequately do it's job, it's because it's full of debris that will wear on the engine's bearing surfaces, and chemicals from combustion that are caustic to the metal inside your engine. Regardless of the oil's condition, it is contaminated and needs to be removed, along with the filter. Otherwise, your engine wil die a slow and early death.
People spend tons of money on a nice vehicle, and try to skimp on maintenance. Makes absolutely no sense. If you cant afford to buy oil/filters for the damn thing, then dont buy a 30K or more vehicle. Go buy a Civic, and then you'll have enough left over to maintain it right. :bash:
Uneek
Super Moderator
peter78 said:
I'm not sure which source that information comes from.
My Camry has the 3.3 V6 and it's rated for 225HP @ 5600RPM and 240ft-lbs @ 3600 RPM of torque vs. the 3.0 V6 is rated for 210HP @ 5800RPM and 220ft-lbs @ 4400RPM. The 3.3 makes more power at lower RPMs than the 3.0. I haven't seen HP and torque graphs for either engine, but I say the 3.3 is little bit more livelier than the 3.0 off the line. My friends who have the 3.0 say the difference is even more noticable--we all have 5th gen Camrys with the 5-speed auto. The same 3.3 V6 in the RX330 and (I think Sienna) is 225HP and 242ft-lbs for torque. I remember the difference as I was shopping for both the RX and Camry. The numbers are for 2004/05 specs. There was a change in 2006 with the SAE standard, so the Camry with the 3.3 V6 dropped to 210HP and the 3.0 V6 dropped even further to 190HP or so, don't recall the torque numbers.
Both engines were downrated for the 2006 model year based on the SAE's new test standards, which closed some loopholes that Toyota and Honda in particular had been taking advantage of.
In the Camry, the 3.0 went from 210 to 190, the 3.3 from 225 to 210. Someone comparing the 2006 3.3 spec to the 2005 3.0 spec might wrongly conclude that the 3.3 was no more powerful than the 3.0.
If you go back to 2003 you'll find a 3.0 rated for 220 horsepower in the Lexus RX 300. Compare that engine to the above specs for the 3.3 and you might wrongly conclude that the 3.3 was less powerful than the 3.0.
In the Camry, the 3.0 went from 210 to 190, the 3.3 from 225 to 210. Someone comparing the 2006 3.3 spec to the 2005 3.0 spec might wrongly conclude that the 3.3 was no more powerful than the 3.0.
If you go back to 2003 you'll find a 3.0 rated for 220 horsepower in the Lexus RX 300. Compare that engine to the above specs for the 3.3 and you might wrongly conclude that the 3.3 was less powerful than the 3.0.
I'd love to see some real test data on a number of subjects of conventional wisdom. Top of the list:
--oil type
--oil change frequency
--break-in period
--affect of aggressive driving on engine longevity
One great forum for oil discussions is http://www.bobistheoilguy.com
--oil type
--oil change frequency
--break-in period
--affect of aggressive driving on engine longevity
One great forum for oil discussions is http://www.bobistheoilguy.com
RamThis
New member
toybox said:
A test can be skewed one way or another depending on who's paying for it, and will almost never be totally honest in it's results.
Real world results are the ones you look at. Because in the end, nothing else matters in the lab until something is used in the manner/environment it was designed to be used. That's why car designers cannot just create a new car on the computer, slap it together, and start selling them, and have never tested it in "real world" applications.
There is no better stress tester than the end consumer, as they will find any flaws, weaknesses overlooked or not "tested" for in the laboratory setting.
Not stating conjecture, hearsay, yadda yadda. Just stating what I've personally seen.
Koz
New member
toybox said:
The NYC cab test was far from real world. They only used one type of engine (rebuilt 4.3 V6), they only used one type of synthetic and dino oil, they very rarely stopped the engines (no cold starts), and the test was only for 60K miles.
It has been proven that synthetic oil is far superior to dino oil in EVERY aspect. This should not even be debated anymore!
Anyone who used dino oil in the Toyota sludge engines had the problem and anyone who used synthetic didn't. That is a pretty good indication on how much better synthetic is. The problem with these engines was the oil circulation design.
Koz
Last edited:
Thai
Elite Member
Koz said:
Are we sure about this?? Could it be that the sample of people using synthetic in their Camrys and Siennas were too small?? I would imagine that most (if not 90% or more) people who own these vehicles (at the time of the sludge issue) did not use synthetic oil. Synthetic oil at that time were not that popular for people to run out and use them on their ordinary vehicles (e.g. Camrys, Siennas, etc.).
It's all about sampling size. There was not enough people using synthetic oil for you and RamThis to make this type of generalization. That in itself is a false generalization.
Bottom line, from ALL the readings on oil topic, for a vehicle under 100K miles (or more), there should NOT be any difference between synthetic and dino oil IF the oil changes were done timely and the engines were designed properly. Sure, synthetic oil may have more safety margin than dino oil (e.g. you can go more miles between changes), but if both type of oil were used properly, i have NOT seen much evidence to show synthetic's superiority over dino.
And as Koz stated, the engines had a faulty design that was exacerbated by some dumbass owners who took the maintenance schedule lightly. But, because of the design issue, there were also plenty of people who got the sludge even with proper maintenance.
Here are topics that should be read:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=674
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75
Let's not get this discussion too much into oil issue...and again, let's be objective about the issue....
