Toyota: [Falling] Quality is Job One

[Koz]

Has anyone even seen a statistic about the percentage of engines affected by sludge? I guarantee it's far from 100% even with dino oil. Maybe even well below 10 percent. Given the number of engines produced, even 5 percent would be a lot of engines.

I can tell that more then 50% off the people that I knew who had these engines had some type of sludge problems (mostly smoking). You have to remember that many had problems without actual failures.

Koz

 

[toybox]

Not stating conjecture, hearsay, yadda yadda. Just stating what I've personally seen.

What you've personally seen and heard and then brought to this discussion IS anecdotal, conjecture and hearsay!

 

[toybox]

The NYC cab test was far from real world. They only used one type of engine (rebuilt 4.3 V6), they only used one type of synthetic and dino oil, they very rarely stopped the engines (no cold starts), and the test was only for 60K miles.

Koz

You got a better test? I'd love to see it.

And only for 60,000 miles? Sounds like a pretty long test to me.

And I'm only arguing against one dino oil being better than some other one without some kind of testing to prove it.

 

[Koz]

Here is everything anyone needs to know about motor oil!

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles#faq_motor_oil_basics

Koz

 

[peter78]

Has anyone even seen a statistic about the percentage of engines affected by sludge? I guarantee it's far from 100% even with dino oil. Maybe even well below 10 percent. Given the number of engines produced, even 5 percent would be a lot of engines.

If you go by Toyota saying there were 3,000 complaints over the years for the 2.4 and 3.0 engine and figure they sell about 400,000 Camry's a year plus other vehicle that use that engine, then add up the years affected by this you would get millions of vehicle. But, lets say conservatively, 2 million vehicles, then it was about 0.15% of the vehicles had the problems. That would make sense, because even Consumer Reports gave the Seinna engine good marks for reliability.

I think what hurt Toyota is their refusal to fix the engines in question, saying it was the owners fault.

 

[Thai]

The NYC cab test was far from real world. They only used one type of engine (rebuilt 4.3 V6), they only used one type of synthetic and dino oil, they very rarely stopped the engines (no cold starts), and the test was only for 60K miles.

Koz, you do realize that the NYC cab test was done correctly, right?? This is how you do a true unbias test...one engine type, same company dino & synthetic, and one testing protocol. If they had used different oils or different engine types, then you have too many variables affecting the result of the test.

 

[Northof49]

If you go by Toyota saying there were 3,000 complaints over the years for the 2.4 and 3.0 engine and figure they sell about 400,000 Camry's a year plus other vehicle that use that engine, then add up the years affected by this you would get millions of vehicle. But, lets say conservatively, 2 million vehicles, then it was about 0.15% of the vehicles had the problems. That would make sense, because even Consumer Reports gave the Seinna engine good marks for reliability.

I think what hurt Toyota is their refusal to fix the engines in question, saying it was the owners fault.

Now what would be really interesting, yet very hard to determine, is what percentage of ANY engine family from any manufacturer subjects to sludge.....

At such a low ratio, it certainly was the owners fault in many cases. The only 2 sludge cases at our local dealership NEVER changed or added oil, and were eventually "covered" somehow. A much higher percentage than .15 of vehicle owners improperly maintain their cars, the real number is clearly much higher than that.

 

[RamThis]

What you've personally seen and heard and then brought to this discussion IS anecdotal, conjecture and hearsay!

And I'm sure you are an expert on engines. What do you do for a living??

My entire working life has been spent turning wrenches, from air cooled engines, to John Deere diesel and tractor technician, to building F-16's here at Lockheed, to designing and test-flying UAV aircraft for government funded private companies. If it has an engine, I've probably worked on one (except snowblowers, see location to the left....)

Yeah, I know just a tad of what I'm talking about, not hearsay and anecdotal. I dont pretend to know everything, but as someone who has worked on engines since before I even graduated HS, I probably know more than the "average joe".

And, umm, if you read my previous replies, I only use synthetics, Mobil-1. So no need to tout the benefits of synthetics to me, I already have that one figured out.

Thanks though. :beer:

BTW, anything on the net can be construed as hearsay and conjecture. You could come up with some "info" that supports your idea just like I could, but how do you know the person who wrote the article knew what they were talking about?

Just take it for what it's worth, if you dont like what you see, scroll down and ignore it.

 

[toybox]

And I'm sure you are an expert on engines. What do you do for a living??


.....And, umm, if you read my previous replies, I only use synthetics, Mobil-1. So no need to tout the benefits of synthetics to me, I already have that one figured out.

What does what I do for a living have to do with anything? And I could care less what you do for a living.

Show me your tests (not "info") that Penzoil and Quaker State suck compared to other oils. You made that proclamation, not me.


And, umm, I never said anything about synthetics or touted them.


an

 

[Koz]

If you go by Toyota saying there were 3,000 complaints over the years for the 2.4 and 3.0 engine and figure they sell about 400,000 Camry's a year plus other vehicle that use that engine, then add up the years affected by this you would get millions of vehicle. But, lets say conservatively, 2 million vehicles, then it was about 0.15% of the vehicles had the problems. That would make sense, because even Consumer Reports gave the Seinna engine good marks for reliability.

I think what hurt Toyota is their refusal to fix the engines in question, saying it was the owners fault.

There were 3400 complaints filed as of 2002. Since then thousands more have been filed. Toyota will not reveal the exact amount, they just agreed to settle with anyone who can show damages. There were 3.5 MILLION vehicles affected and anyone who has laid out any money for repairs will be compensated. So your affected percentage is a little off!

Koz

 

[Koz]

What does what I do for a living have to do with anything? And I could care less what you do for a living.

Show me your tests (not "info") that Penzoil and Quaker State suck compared to other oils. You made that proclamation, not me.


And, umm, I never said anything about synthetics or touted them.

If you look at the manufactures spec sheet on their own oil, you will see that Amsoil and Mobil 1 have the best data. This has also been verified by many tests and UOAs through the years.

Pennziol and Quaker State don't suck; they just do not have as good spec numbers as Mobil 1, Amsoil, Redline, etc. All synthetic are overkill, any brand will provide exceptional protection. It is just a matter of how muck overkill is enough. The biggest difference in the better oils is how long they last. Amsoil and Mobil 1 have proved to give exceptional extended change intervals. Redline has been proven to be good in high performance application. Many oils have their special applications. Havoline is the king of

 

[peter78]

There were 3400 complaints filed as of 2002. Since then thousands more have been filed. Toyota will not reveal the exact amount, they just agreed to settle with anyone who can show damages. There were 3.5 MILLION vehicles affected and anyone who has laid out any money for repairs will be compensated. So your affected percentage is a little off!

Koz

I remember Toyota finally admitted in 2002 that there were over 3,000 complaints, so how did that get to be 3.5 million. Were in the heck did that number come from?

 

[toybox]

If you look at the manufactures spec sheet on their own oil, you will see that Amsoil and Mobil 1 have the best data. This has also been verified by many tests and UOAs through the years.

Pennziol and Quaker State don't suck; they just do not have as good spec numbers as Mobil 1, Amsoil, Redline, etc. All synthetic are overkill, any brand will provide exceptional protection. It is just a matter of how muck overkill is enough. The biggest difference in the better oils is how long they last. Amsoil and Mobil 1 have proved to give exceptional extended change intervals. Redline has been proven to be good in high performance application. Many oils have their special applications. Havoline is the king of

 

[Koz]

I use Amsoil or Mobil1.

My point of contention is with statements like these.

"I've never seen an engine with sludge unless the owner was improperly maintaining it, or was using cheap, crappy oil like Pennzoil (a liquid candle really)."

And

"Slap on a Pennzoil or Fram oil filter, fill it up with some Quaker state or Pennzoil lubricant, and yeah, you're asking for trouble!"

Pennzoil at one time had a serious sludge problem. My brother was a claims adjuster for a warranty company (years ago) and I remember him telling me that if there was an engine failure due to sludge and Pennzoil was used they would not cover the claim. He said they had to specifically ask if Pennzoil was used.

Koz

 

[RamThis]

I use Amsoil or Mobil1.

My point of contention is with statements like these.

"I've never seen an engine with sludge unless the owner was improperly maintaining it, or was using cheap, crappy oil like Pennzoil (a liquid candle really)."

And

"Slap on a Pennzoil or Fram oil filter, fill it up with some Quaker state or Pennzoil lubricant, and yeah, you're asking for trouble!"

And what is your problem with my statements? Too accurate for you?

I'm really done arguing the point, as you do not seem to understand. You want to try to nitpick with Webster's dictionary instead of discuss the issue at hand. Shows you really do not know what you are talking about in the field of engine lubrication and need to find something else to argue about.



And Koz, yeah Pennzoil or QS would both adequately do the job of creating the protective film of oil between the bearing surfaces, but their chemical makeup is very poor. Maybe "sucks" is too harsh a word, but as you re-iterated, they are probably the lowest quality oils available. Meaning if you dont keep up religiously with your oil/filter changes, sludge and bearing wear are much more prevalent possibilities than if you were using an higher end lubricant. With those oils, you do not have much of a safety zone in which you can use it longer without fear of damage.

 

[Koz]

And Koz, yeah Pennzoil or QS would both adequately do the job of creating the protective film of oil between the bearing surfaces, but their chemical makeup is very poor. Maybe "sucks" is too harsh a word, but as you re-iterated, they are probably the lowest quality oils available. Meaning if you dont keep up religiously with your oil/filter changes, sludge and bearing wear are much more prevalent possibilities than if you were using an higher end lubricant. With those oils, you do not have much of a safety zone in which you can use it longer without fear of damage.

The problems I mentioned with Pennzoil was many years ago and if I remember correctly the problem was with their conventional oil. Since then they must have realized that their oils were getting a bad reputation and re-formulated their product. From current UOAs on their oils they seemed to have fixed the problem and I

 

[RamThis]

The problems I mentioned with Pennzoil was many years ago and if I remember correctly the problem was with their conventional oil. Since then they must have realized that their oils were getting a bad reputation and re-formulated their product. From current UOAs on their oils they seemed to have fixed the problem and I

 

[Koz]

Their oil now is a different formulation than those of yesteryear. Im glad to hear they fixed their sludge problems finally, they certainly did have a bad rap for really making a mess of the engine. I had a friend with an old chevy truck, with a 350, that had some valve train noise starting up, so he pulled the valve covers to see what was going on. When he pulled the covers, there was a complete packing of thick sludge in the rocker cavity, that had basically filled the void with the only openings where the motion of the rockers wouldnt let it build up.

He ran Pennzoil conventional 10W30 and, as far as I know, changed it pretty regularly, near or not far from the 3K recommended intervals. This was about 10 or so years ago too.

As far as synthetics, I think they'd all do a more than adequate job no matter what you buy.

But it all boils down to really what works for you, and what you've had the best luck with, and stick with it.

The UOAs for Toyota engines show that they LOVE Mobil 1 and Amsoil and that Toyota engines are gentle on the oil. 10 to 12K mile change intervals are very common. With a high quality oil filter, you could get 1 year change intervals.

Koz

 

[RamThis]

The UOAs for Toyota engines show that they LOVE Mobil 1 and Amsoil and that Toyota engines are gentle on the oil. 10 to 12K mile change intervals are very common. With a high quality oil filter, you could get 1 year change intervals.

Koz

Yikes I wouldnt go that long between oil changes, that WOULD be a year for me lol. I think I have let my truck hit 5K once or twice on Mobil-1 and felt horrible about it lol. Just happens when you are busy and sometimes dont have the time to crawl under there and git-r-done.

Nice to know I do have the buffer zone if I need it if time becomes a problem for getting my oil change done exactly when I want to. Once I hit 3K, I start trying to find time to hit up the Awful Zone or O'Screwme's to get a case of oil and a filter, a can of Gunk, and a can of CD-2 Engine detailer. Good time to clean things up while you are under there lol.

 

[Koz]

Yikes I wouldnt go that long between oil changes, that WOULD be a year for me lol. I think I have let my truck hit 5K once or twice on Mobil-1 and felt horrible about it lol. Just happens when you are busy and sometimes dont have the time to crawl under there and git-r-done.

Nice to know I do have the buffer zone if I need it if time becomes a problem for getting my oil change done exactly when I want to. Once I hit 3K, I start trying to find time to hit up the Awful Zone or O'Screwme's to get a case of oil and a filter, a can of Gunk, and a can of CD-2 Engine detailer. Good time to clean things up while you are under there lol.

You can easily go 5/7K on conventional oil and 10/12K on synthetic. If you are changing synthetic every 5K miles, you are just wasting your money. There are several conventional oils that work very good for those miles. Of course, to run 10/12K miles, you will need to make sure by getting a UOA done to verify the oil is still OK. Again, Toyota engines are pretty gentle on oil, especially the 4.7. The 4.7 is probably the best wearing engine on the market today. They consistently show amazing UOAs.

Koz