Trying to further understand why we STILL have no diesel options?

[MeBe4running]

So currently I am across the pond in good old England, so not in my 5th gen however is come to my attention how many newer vehicles over here are diesels. Now I haven't been over here for the past 2 years but new cars in the UK here of which a lot are American all have diesel engines in them (well mostly). I simply don't get this. Culture? Education? Americans want bigger engines? My only guess is we love our gas guzzlers and don't care for these "little" diesel engines? This is not a dig, its just I don't get it!? Petrol here (gas) is also very expensive 1.30 a liter which adds up to be like $8-9 a gallon of gas. This part makes sense why we driver smaller cars with littler engines. Maybe it will take gas to reach $8-9 a gallon until we're offered some diesel options.

Anyone here know? Not to mention EVERY other CAR/Truck brand you can think of, offers a diesel option over here.

 

[MeBe4running]

oh and take a look at these MPG's. Those diesels rav4's are getting better milage than a prius!

 

[Bimmer-Bob]

I've spent some time living in Europe, and yeah, they love them some diesels over there. They're starting to catch on over here. I would've loved an SR5 with a diesel. More towing capacity & better fuel economy - sounds like a no-brainer!

What I don't get is that Toyota produces diesel engines for sale in other markets, so why not the US? One of the 4Runner's main competitors, the Jeep Grand Cherokee, offers both V8 and diesel alternatives to the base V6...

 

[RobDek]

Diesel fuel is also cheaper to purchase in Europe. I'd love to get another diesel but here in my market...diesel costs about 15% more than gas at the moment which is just crazy!!!

 

[Jeremy556]

oh and take a look at these MPG's. Those diesels rav4's are getting better milage than a prius!

Not the same size gallons. US is 3.8 liters, UK 4.5 liter

 

[Okki]

I I think it's mainly lack of education in the states, and crappy, smokey diesels in the 80ties and 90ties.

But I agree. Hybrids here are stupid. I would have loved my truck in a turbo diesel, but I'm guessing it will take another 5 years before they become more mainstream here.

Most of the cars I've grown up with were diesel. Enjoy my old stomping grounds while you are there.

Okki

 

[Ryan1975]

DieselToyz has a swap
I'd love to do if I had $25k to spend. Maybe after I'm retired from the Army

 

[tamerunner]

Because of the EPA and the reg's that they have here. I'd love it to. I drive a f350 with the old 7.3 every day and love it.

 

[Intruder]

Do the conversion on those sticker prices too. That's about $50k USD for a Wrangler...

The other reason you won't see a diesel Toyota in the US any time soon is Chicken tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ArnavG544]

I agree that diesels should be offered, and it seems like they're starting to make a comeback in the US with Porsche, MB, VW, and Audi, as well as some other car makers if I'm not mistaken. It's probably a matter of time (couple years) before Toyota makes em too.

But yup, I, along with several other people here, love gas guzzlers (I don't exactly hate the environment but I wouldn't ever be caught dead with electrics/hybrids/etc no matter the financial situation) and wouldn't exchange for a diesel, that's probably why, along with yall also pointing out that we're very stupid.

 

[hearno]

Didn't see anyone hit on this but they also have to pay more taxes based on the size of their engine so it pays to have a smaller displacement engine. Literally.

 

[FrontRange4Runner]

There are several reasons:

1. The biggest reason that there are few diesel vehicles here is simple: Americans think that they still suck(thx early american diesels!). They make less HP(vs gas of the same size) and the average car buyer will shy away because they do not understand the fact that torque is far more important. The old quote sums it up perfectly - "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races"

2. Diesel is more expensive than premium gas in many places. It doesn't matter that diesel engines are far more efficient, people see the higher price of fuel and that's it. Most buyers will not crunch the numbers to see if diesel would be a good fit for them.

The above 2 are a few of the biggest reasons, but #3 I learned after doing durability testing on diesel engines for a while...

3. Diesel engines are very expensive and problematic to develop in the US.... Because of emissions regulations, modern diesel engines are extremely complicated. As I said in an earlier post - the days of the super reliable and easy to work on diesel are completely gone. Because of this, there are few people actually qualified to work on them -this makes repairs very expensive and possibly time consuming if you pick the wrong mechanic. If you add the above 2 reason into this, there is little incentive for manufactures to actually spend the money to bring diesels here. Toyota is very conservative when it comes to things like this and will likely wait out the most recent wave of diesels to see if they sell. If they do sell, we will then have to see if their reliability ruins the American public on them again.

Honestly, a diesel would be awesome in the 4Runner, but after spending many hours in diesels that will eventually be on our shores, I would probably stick with my gas powered vehicle. They have their place, but I want nothing to do with HPFP's, DPF's, Urea injection etc...I could go on and on about this but I'll spare you all the boring parts - In a vehicle built around reliability and durability like the 4Runner, stick with what works(in the US): gas engines.
Also, other countries use the Imperial gallon, which is larger than the US gallon, making their MPG figures look awesome.

 

[Ducmonsta]

Because it's not cost efficient for manufactures to conform to US air quality regulations. None of those diesels overseas have particulate filters. They aren't required to have the additional thousands of dollars of equipment on their vehicles to combat poor diesel emissions.

This is also America. Where we have 800 cars for every 1000 people. In Europe, the ratio is closer to 560 to every 1000. We could singlehandedly, as a nation, destroy the atmosphere in a matter of decades.

Yeah, what [MENTION=87531]FrontRange4Runner[/MENTION] said. I'm just too lazy to type it out.

 

[Bimmer-Bob]

urs in diesels that will eventually be on our shores, I would probably stick with my gas powered vehicle. They have their place, but I want nothing to do with HPFP's, DPF's, Urea injection etc...

Just picking nits here, but HPFP's aren't unique to diesel engines: direct injected gasoline engines use them, too.

 

[FrontRange4Runner]

Just picking nits here, but HPFP's aren't unique to diesel engines: direct injected gasoline engines use them, too.

Yep and that's exactly why I'm not 100% on the 4Runner going DI. Sadly HPFP's have proven to be a weaker point of the DI engine in general. Im sure that will be worked out sometime in the future.

 

[Omar RVA]

The EPA has chosen to have stricter diesel emission requirements vs regular gasoline. This forces manufacturers to retrofit their european diesel engines with a few extra bits of equipment and Urea injection systems that come at cost (FrontRange4Runner offered a wonderful explanation above).

People also love to forget horsepower on those european diesels. In the case of the 4Runner, its alternative is the 3.0L in the Prado. You'll see the torque value quoted left and right (though it's just ~22 ft-lbs more than what is offered in the V6 currently), but it tops out at a whopping 170 horsepower (13 more than the I4 gasoline engine that was offered in the 4Runner in 2010 - which almost no one bought, but probably also due to the awful torque as well). Again, as FrontRange mentioned, horsepower sells cars.

The chicken tax, however, is not a reason the diesel isn't here. The 4runner is not necessarily classified as a light truck by the federal regs (40 CFR 86.082-2).

At the end of the day, Toyota will offer whatever they feel there is a sufficient market for. They pay their analysts and forecasters good money to make sure that the proper avenues to make money are covered. Until they feel comfortable going through the hoops to offer their diesel here, we won't see it.

OA

 

[SigSense]

Spent most of the last decade in the Middle East driving all kinds of Diesel vehicles, and I'm sold.

Let's cut to the problem: government. Government regulations and taxes conspire to make Diesel unattractive.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42666.pdf

 

[JeremyB]

People also love to forget horsepower on those european diesels. In the case of the 4Runner, its alternative is the 3.0L in the Prado. You'll see the torque value quoted left and right (though it's just ~22 ft-lbs more than what is offered in the V6 currently), but it tops out at a whopping 170 horsepower (13 more than the I4 gasoline engine that was offered in the 4Runner in 2010 - which almost no one bought, but probably also due to the awful torque as well). Again, as FrontRange mentioned, horsepower sells cars.

Exactly.

The 1KD-FTV is rated at:
170hp@3400rpm
302ft-lb@1800-2600rpm

Our 1GR-FE is rated at:
270hp@5600rpm
278ft-lb@4400rpm

For giggles, here's a dyno comparison* of the 260hp version of the 1GR-FE vs the 164hp version of the 1KD-FTV.

*From TIS files found on the internets

 

[Jeremy556]

Let's cut to the problem: government.

That is the common denominator to most problems. Unfortunately most people are only interested in less Government when it is in their best interest.

 

[FrontRange4Runner]

Exactly.

*From TIS files found on the internets

Do you have any that show the Tq curve? Just wondering how much sooner the diesel hits max Tq.