Trying to further understand why we STILL have no diesel options?
- Thread starter MeBe4running
- Start date
Omar RVA
New member
I don't have the curve but according to Toyota (Australia), for the 3.0L in the Prado: Max Tq: 410 nM at 1600 rpm and Max Hp: 127 kW at 3400 rpm.
OA
EDIT: JeremyB beat me to it
chmura
New member
The reason we do not have many diesels here is because the NOx standard is very low here and in Europe it is not. Usually the diesels here have a DPF and a SCR to reduce NOx. To get these after treatment systems working together it is very difficult and costly. Have to control temps precisely, these systems only work on a particular duty cycle, etc. European standards are slowly catching up to USA standards though. In the future we will see more and more diesels here in the USA because Europe and USA will eventually have the same standard.
FrontRange4Runner
New member
Thx 290 @ 2000RPM would be awesome, but like I said there are trade-offs.
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner ! US buyers have no incentive to pay significantly MORE for a diesel engine which uses fuel that has cost MORE at the pump for years. Sorry for shouting, but I'm trying to make the point that by the time you pay the extra cost for the engine AND the fuel, any resulting MPG savings takes a very long time to pay back the initial cost.
Then we have the factor of fumes and noise, which is noteworthy for a vehicle with lots of owners hanging a head out the window while off road. A diesel option for the T4R is probably an iffy proposition for Toyota considering the US is it's primary market (not meaning to sound like bragging on that point). It could easily be seen as a significant financial outlay with a shaky prognosis for a positive return on capital.
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MeBe4running
New member
Brilliant. Thank you to everybody here for leaving a response. That's given my brain a good refresh a decent knowledge base on this matter. I guess my easiest option would be to move back and get me one of those mini land cruisers, though that will be when :flock: fly. Love america and its freedom, Im moving nowhere! Thanks again Forum!
GA-4RUNNER
New member
I worked on a jeep cherokee the other day with a diesel in it.
If they did a diesel in the 4runner i would want a 4 cylinder cummins. Much easier to work on. All diesel parys are not cheap either. We rebuild injectors, turbos, injection pumps, bake dpfs, all repair work on any type of diesel and any other diesel related project. My question to a new in the market diesel owner is always this "does a 5 thousand dollar repair bill make you sick to your stomach? If yes then dont buy a diesel.
And yes the government is putting all these emission restrictions on the engines, but not requiring the fuel manufactures to keep up the proper ctane rating out of the pumps. Cruddy diesel fuel is a big problem down here in GA
If they did a diesel in the 4runner i would want a 4 cylinder cummins. Much easier to work on. All diesel parys are not cheap either. We rebuild injectors, turbos, injection pumps, bake dpfs, all repair work on any type of diesel and any other diesel related project. My question to a new in the market diesel owner is always this "does a 5 thousand dollar repair bill make you sick to your stomach? If yes then dont buy a diesel.
And yes the government is putting all these emission restrictions on the engines, but not requiring the fuel manufactures to keep up the proper ctane rating out of the pumps. Cruddy diesel fuel is a big problem down here in GA
That graph shows a very interesting trend in the 3,500 to 4,000 RPM range for the gas engine. My wife starts complaining about engine noise above 3,000 RPM (guess it interfers with her music) and I have noticed the "dead spot" in this range when towing. I'm on the fence about adding a heat pump (supercharger), yet this graph displays the need for something to compensate? Otherwise it feels like all that is happening in this range is fuel burning without power gain.
I'm not complaining....just stating the obvious. :boxer:
LandCruiser
New member
I've said this before...
Environ-mentals think diesel is evil, so offering one requires auto manufacturers to jump through huge hoops to certify engines and vehicles for just about anything that isn't a semi or truck over 6000 lbs GVWR.
Thanks to new legislation, diesel doesn't give you the huge fuel mpg advantage it used to.
Diesel smells terrible. Many people don't want to reek like a trucker just by handling the pump or stepping in diesel at the gas station.
Diesels command a sizable premium over gas cars. It won't make a lot of sense for most buyers.
Diesel costs more than regular.
Diesel turns to jell-o in the cold.
The only real world advantage of a diesel in the US is torque. Most people don't understand what torque is, nor do they need it.
Environ-mentals think diesel is evil, so offering one requires auto manufacturers to jump through huge hoops to certify engines and vehicles for just about anything that isn't a semi or truck over 6000 lbs GVWR.
Thanks to new legislation, diesel doesn't give you the huge fuel mpg advantage it used to.
Diesel smells terrible. Many people don't want to reek like a trucker just by handling the pump or stepping in diesel at the gas station.
Diesels command a sizable premium over gas cars. It won't make a lot of sense for most buyers.
Diesel costs more than regular.
Diesel turns to jell-o in the cold.
The only real world advantage of a diesel in the US is torque. Most people don't understand what torque is, nor do they need it.
GA-4RUNNER
New member
How cold for the diesel to start to solidify? Never seen this, but doesn't mean its not true. Just curious.
okay.. for the lighter turn here:
Couple more thought points:
Okki :brick:
- When zombies take over the world, you can still make you own diesel; good luck making Premium gasoline in your back yard.
- Yes, diesel can smell (although have you smelled gasoline? now quite Drakar Noir etiher), but if made from deep fryer fat, it smells like french fries... AND WHO IN THE US DOES NOT LIKE FRIES!?!?!?
- Diesel will turn Jellowie in the cold (uhhhmmm.. Jello), but as the Russians have shown in various youtube videos, this is fixed by simply throwing a burning newspaper under the engine block.
- another one on the smell side of things.. please you all roll down the rear window on your 4runner and step on the gas.... ahhhwwww.. like a bat out of hell you'll smell the sufler.
Couple more thought points:
- More cars in the US reason for tighter emission controls? Maybe, but population density is way higher in Europe, so health impact would be more readily noticed (likely resulting in tighter emission controls).
- Higher cost of ownership. This is largely true, but mainly due to the keeping-up-with-the-Jones syndrome. A 4 year lease will not provide much (if any) benefit, but the economic life of a vehicle is way longer, and if you were to stick with the same car, the benefits would certainly be there.
Okki :brick:
1engineer
Moderator
Let me try to give Ollie a simple answer:
"Some of the items mentioned above are true. Some are not. The simplest answer is this: If you don't tow heavy loads regularly, it makes no economic sense to buy a diesel." There. I said it. Yes, it smells bad, yes the government makes it more difficult to pass emissions and yes, all the other little tidbits too. Bottom line is "It costs up to 10% of the VEHICLE price, upfront, to buy a diesel equipped SUV over their gasoline counterparts. In addition, right now diesel is around $1.00 more per gallon than 87 gas. Here is the math, and I'm only doing this again because Ollie is a stand up guy:
Assume
15,000 miles/yr
Vehicle gets 20 mpg with gas
Vehicle gets 26 mpg with diesel and I am being generous.
Gasoline cost is $3.50/gal (here)
Diesel cost is $4.50/gal (here)
To drive 15,000 miles a year, it will cost you: (Miles driven/miles per gal)(fuel price per gal)
$2,625.00 a year to fuel your vehicle with gasoline
$2,596.00 a year to fuel your vehicle with diesel
A savings of a whopping $29.00 a year.
Now to pay off that initial premium price of oh, say $3,500.00 for the privilege of driving a diesel it will take you about 120 YEARS to pay for it. In reality by the time you buy the exhaust fluid for the diesel you will go in the hole and it will cost you more to drive than gasoline.
Now, if you NEED the torque because you are towing at the limit every. single. day. then yes, you need the diesel.
I am not made of money, I don't tow at the limit every day and diesel fuel stinks.
Until it makes economic sense to the average consumer then diesel will not be a popular choice here in the US. There you go [MENTION=51868]MeBe4running[/MENTION].
"Some of the items mentioned above are true. Some are not. The simplest answer is this: If you don't tow heavy loads regularly, it makes no economic sense to buy a diesel." There. I said it. Yes, it smells bad, yes the government makes it more difficult to pass emissions and yes, all the other little tidbits too. Bottom line is "It costs up to 10% of the VEHICLE price, upfront, to buy a diesel equipped SUV over their gasoline counterparts. In addition, right now diesel is around $1.00 more per gallon than 87 gas. Here is the math, and I'm only doing this again because Ollie is a stand up guy:
Assume
15,000 miles/yr
Vehicle gets 20 mpg with gas
Vehicle gets 26 mpg with diesel and I am being generous.
Gasoline cost is $3.50/gal (here)
Diesel cost is $4.50/gal (here)
To drive 15,000 miles a year, it will cost you: (Miles driven/miles per gal)(fuel price per gal)
$2,625.00 a year to fuel your vehicle with gasoline
$2,596.00 a year to fuel your vehicle with diesel
A savings of a whopping $29.00 a year.
Now to pay off that initial premium price of oh, say $3,500.00 for the privilege of driving a diesel it will take you about 120 YEARS to pay for it. In reality by the time you buy the exhaust fluid for the diesel you will go in the hole and it will cost you more to drive than gasoline.
Now, if you NEED the torque because you are towing at the limit every. single. day. then yes, you need the diesel.
I am not made of money, I don't tow at the limit every day and diesel fuel stinks.
Until it makes economic sense to the average consumer then diesel will not be a popular choice here in the US. There you go [MENTION=51868]MeBe4running[/MENTION].
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Whiplash Willy
New member
Not only do most vehicle models in other parts of the world have diesel engine options, but they have multiple different petrol and diesel options available. Here in the US, we are lucky to have 2 different petrol engine choices. They can also get a manual transmission in just about anything.
I owned a 2012 VW TDI Golf 6-speed manual for about a year and 10k miles before I had to upsize to the 4runner to accommodate my growing family.
With its 140hp and 236 lbs/ft torque, it wasn't going to win any runs to 60mph, but I always had way more power I needed, any time I needed it. Whether I was stopped, or cruising at any speed, with just a little application of the "go pedal" that thing would really get up and go. Especially on steep hills. I loved the driving characteristics of that thing. It didn't hurt either that I was getting 36mpg in the city and 49mpg on the hwy!
However, that TDI was very complex, poorly assembled, and very expensive to fix. I would never own one out of warranty. $10,000 for a new fuel system from a failed HPFP, $2000 for a new turbo, $2000 for new DPF, $2500 for a new DMF, are just some of the possible expenses you could see before 100k miles. My TDI was already leaking oil before I reached 10k miles....
There are a lot of things that can go wrong, and they often do. People who went 20k to 40k miles without any problems got excited, and bad or inexperienced VW techs made minor repairs into major issues. Granted Toyota vs VW quality and reliability can't be compared, but Toyota does have some reliability issues with their diesels as well.
With my 4runner, I am getting about half the MPGs as the TDI (and paying about $0.20/mile vs $0.11/mile in fuel) and it always feels underpowered, unless I floor it, which is very annoying, but I like not always having to worry about taking it into the shop, or wondering if that weird noise/feeling is something very expensive breaking.
On a side note, during the Winter, diesel can be close to $1 more a gallon, but in the summer, I have seen the same price as regular.
I owned a 2012 VW TDI Golf 6-speed manual for about a year and 10k miles before I had to upsize to the 4runner to accommodate my growing family.
With its 140hp and 236 lbs/ft torque, it wasn't going to win any runs to 60mph, but I always had way more power I needed, any time I needed it. Whether I was stopped, or cruising at any speed, with just a little application of the "go pedal" that thing would really get up and go. Especially on steep hills. I loved the driving characteristics of that thing. It didn't hurt either that I was getting 36mpg in the city and 49mpg on the hwy!
However, that TDI was very complex, poorly assembled, and very expensive to fix. I would never own one out of warranty. $10,000 for a new fuel system from a failed HPFP, $2000 for a new turbo, $2000 for new DPF, $2500 for a new DMF, are just some of the possible expenses you could see before 100k miles. My TDI was already leaking oil before I reached 10k miles....
There are a lot of things that can go wrong, and they often do. People who went 20k to 40k miles without any problems got excited, and bad or inexperienced VW techs made minor repairs into major issues. Granted Toyota vs VW quality and reliability can't be compared, but Toyota does have some reliability issues with their diesels as well.
With my 4runner, I am getting about half the MPGs as the TDI (and paying about $0.20/mile vs $0.11/mile in fuel) and it always feels underpowered, unless I floor it, which is very annoying, but I like not always having to worry about taking it into the shop, or wondering if that weird noise/feeling is something very expensive breaking.
On a side note, during the Winter, diesel can be close to $1 more a gallon, but in the summer, I have seen the same price as regular.
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philsey
New member
^ Exactly what [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] and [MENTION=52619]Whiplash Willy[/MENTION] said. Before anyone further romanticizes owning a diesel anything, please check on the cost of a new or rebuilt injection pump.
If I were King, I'd prohibit anyone who has never owned a diesel automobile from further posting on the subject.
No, thank you, never again thank you, BTDT.
If I were King, I'd prohibit anyone who has never owned a diesel automobile from further posting on the subject.
No, thank you, never again thank you, BTDT.
Using my region's average prices over the last year, my miles/yr (18k), and my average mpg (18), the savings per year is ~$340. Still not enough to really make someone go head over heels about cost savings.
I thought your $3500 premium was a bit high, but I looked and the Jeep GC diesel is $4500! The Ram 1500 diesel is $4000. And for giggles, the Ford F-250+ diesel is $8315.
Must be area dependent. Diesel hasn't come down equal to gas prices around here (N Alabama) since 2009.
1engineer
Moderator
I was being ridiculously fair on both the initial price and the fuel economy. 30% better is very rare and is what I used. Usually 20% better is about right and $4K for the upgrade to diesel is more in line with reality. Oh I gave the diesel the benefit of the doubt lol.
bimrunner
New member
Guys, if you want more feeling of torque, regearing really does help with that feeling. No, it doesn’t change the engine in any way. It simply gets you to the peak torque numbers (rpm) faster. Honestly, one of the most noticeable mods I’ve done. I did sacrifice some MPG, but really in the big picture, it wasn’t that big of a premium to me. I am getting about 15mpg on or off freeway now. Was averaging near 18ish when all stock (btw, I’m pretty sure the lift and tires did the most damage). Playing with 1engineers numbers I’d assume I’d have lost about enough mpg to keep the same difference between his extremely generous assumptions to still be in the ballgame. Oh, and this is a mod you can actually do! Diesel might be your wet dream, but why not go with your best real option?
Ok. I’m done preaching.
Ok. I’m done preaching.
LandCruiser
New member
[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] made a brilliant argument.
I'll make an emotional one.
Your wife takes out your diesel SUV out for a night on the town with her girlfriends. She's wearing her best dress, 300 dollar shoes, French perfume I that's sold by the OUNCE, and enough rocks to make J-lo envious. The needle is close to "E."
Do you really think she's going to pump 30 gallons of stinking diesel, then reek of diesel on her night out because that shit smell don't wash off? Do you really think she wants to smell like a truck stop for all day every time she gets fuel?
Hell, unless you're married to a good ol Southern and/or farm girl, your wife is NOT going to pump diesel. You couldn't bribe her to.
Call me sexist, but I'm right.
I'll make an emotional one.
Your wife takes out your diesel SUV out for a night on the town with her girlfriends. She's wearing her best dress, 300 dollar shoes, French perfume I that's sold by the OUNCE, and enough rocks to make J-lo envious. The needle is close to "E."
Do you really think she's going to pump 30 gallons of stinking diesel, then reek of diesel on her night out because that shit smell don't wash off? Do you really think she wants to smell like a truck stop for all day every time she gets fuel?
Hell, unless you're married to a good ol Southern and/or farm girl, your wife is NOT going to pump diesel. You couldn't bribe her to.
Call me sexist, but I'm right.
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