Trying to further understand why we STILL have no diesel options?

[NoDak]

[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] made a brilliant argument.

I'll make an emotional one.

Your wife takes out your diesel SUV out for a night on the town with her girlfriends. She's wearing her best dress, 300 dollar shoes, French perfume I that's sold by the OUNCE, and enough rocks to make J-lo envious. The needle is close to "E."

Do you really think she's going to pump 30 gallons of stinking diesel, then reek of diesel on her night out because that shit smell don't wash off? Do you really think she wants to smell like a truck stop for all day every time she gets fuel?

Hell, unless you're married to a good ol Southern and/or farm girl, your wife is NOT going to pump diesel. You couldn't bribe her to.

Call me sexist, but I'm right.

hell i cant even get the warden to fill up her tacoma as it is now and its a gas v6.

 

[dekeman]

Like women, it's best not to try and understand the why in this question.
Just keep calm, and carry on. Too many fields to plow or explore with a 4R.

 

[The Waco Kid]

Let me try to give Ollie a simple answer:

"Some of the items mentioned above are true. Some are not. The simplest answer is this: If you don't tow heavy loads regularly, it makes no economic sense to buy a diesel." There. I said it. Yes, it smells bad, yes the government makes it more difficult to pass emissions and yes, all the other little tidbits too. Bottom line is "It costs up to 10% of the VEHICLE price, upfront, to buy a diesel equipped SUV over their gasoline counterparts. In addition, right now diesel is around $1.00 more per gallon than 87 gas. Here is the math, and I'm only doing this again because Ollie is a stand up guy:

Assume
15,000 miles/yr
Vehicle gets 20 mpg with gas
Vehicle gets 26 mpg with diesel and I am being generous.
Gasoline cost is $3.50/gal (here)
Diesel cost is $4.50/gal (here)

To drive 15,000 miles a year, it will cost you: (Miles driven/miles per gal)(fuel price per gal)
$2,625.00 a year to fuel your vehicle with gasoline
$2,596.00 a year to fuel your vehicle with diesel
A savings of a whopping $29.00 a year.

Now to pay off that initial premium price of oh, say $3,500.00 for the privilege of driving a diesel it will take you about 120 YEARS to pay for it. In reality by the time you buy the exhaust fluid for the diesel you will go in the hole and it will cost you more to drive than gasoline.

Now, if you NEED the torque because you are towing at the limit every. single. day. then yes, you need the diesel.

I am not made of money, I don't tow at the limit every day and diesel fuel stinks.
Until it makes economic sense to the average consumer then diesel will not be a popular choice here in the US. There you go [MENTION=51868]MeBe4running[/MENTION].

This is exactly what I did when I was considering the JGC and the 4r (not counting the JGC's other reliability flaws).

As awesome as I find diesels to be, they're just not economical in our current market. One day, maybe... But I'll stick to my $2.99 a gallon petrol pushin SUV over a 420 pound feet of torque spewin, $10.50 a gallon of diesel burnin SUV any day of the week. (That number is not necessarily accurate, just used as an example/exaggeration? of euro fuel prices for comparison).

 

[Jeff614]

Just a few thoughts from a current, and soon to be former diesel owner...

I'm actually selling my 2011 F250 6.7 PowerStroke right now and as mentioned by a number of previous posters, the emissions equipment on the newer diesels is just getting ridiculous. While not the sole reason I'm getting rid of it, that equipment has certainly made the choice easier.

For instance, I just had to replace the DEF tank/pump/heater for $800. It is all one unit and the heater went bad. DEF freezes at a fairly high temp. so this part had to be replaced with winter coming. DEF itself costs $12-$15 per 2.5 gallon jug btw.

The Diesel Particulate Filter (D.P.F.) and its associated regeneration cycles that clean said filter out suck your avg. MPG down significantly. This filter doesn't have an indefinite life either and is rather costly (as most things with platinum in them are). The more city driving you do, the more regens you'll experience as well.

Finally, Googling "High Pressure Fuel Pump failure" is almost enough to scare anyone away from the newer diesels. Ford/GM/Dodge/VW all use a version of these pumps, and when they go they are shockingly not covered under warranty....close to 10K. The apparent cause for their failures is low lubricity in the fuel itself. This has been covered time and time again on the various diesel forums.

There's certainly ways to rid your diesel of these problematic systems but they are not only strictly for off-road use only, their price has sky-rocketed lately, not to mention kissing your warranty good-bye.

Other than the DEF tank and faulty radiator I'm actually pretty pleased with my 6.7 Powerstroke. It's just not a practical vehicle for me anymore.

I know I'll miss the 400HP/800TQ compared to the 270HP in the T4R but there is a TON to be said for reliability. That being said I'm very interested to see what Nissan can do with a Cummins in the Titan in the next few years.


Just my 2cents.
Jeff

 

[GA-4RUNNER]

Nah she will pump gasoline like most do. Ask me how many tanks i have pumps this year alone just from someone not knowing it was diesel and putting gas in the vehicle

 

[GA-4RUNNER]

Yeah the 4 cylinder cummins in the titan is a sight to be seen. Hopefully it will work out. I havent had to work on a powerstroke 6.7 yet because most of them are still under warranty, but a 6.4 powerstroke is trash just like its older brother the 6.0P.O.S. The common rail systems on the dodge cummins arent all that bad and when it comes to labor time arent nearly as bad as the others. Just for example a head gasket job on the dodge pays 15 hours when a head job on a durmax pays 55 hours. Cummins is the way to go if anyone ever attempts to put one in there 4 runner. I would recommend a 12 or 24 valve.

And on another note please dont put biodiesel or kitchen grease in your fuel tank and run your vehicle on it. Thats the quickest way to a hefty repair bill you can go.

 

[Whiplash Willy]

Finally, Googling "High Pressure Fuel Pump failure" is almost enough to scare anyone away from the newer diesels. Ford/GM/Dodge/VW all use a version of these pumps, and when they go they are shockingly not covered under warranty....close to 10K. The apparent cause for their failures is low lubricity in the fuel itself. This has been covered time and time again on the various diesel forums.

As far as the VW HPFP failures, VW is actually stepping up and covering these now under the powertrain warranty, as well as they have replaced them a bit outside of warranty, as long as the failure wasn't due to misfueling. I have heard of people with 80k miles being taken care of by VW. The problem with the HPFP is that diesel is used as it's lubricant, and water in the fuel, or someone misfueling with gasoline can cause them to explode. For cost saving reasons, VW doesn't put enough filters in the fuel system, so when the HPFP grenades, it sends metal particles throughout the entire fuel system, destroying everything, which costs about $10k to fix.

I am not sure how far out of warranty VW will cover HPFP failures, but I wouldn't want to find out the hard way! I also wouldn't want a VW tech doing that kind of major work on my car either!

 

[TxBigRed]

I traded in my 2006 Jeep Liberty with the 2.8 diesel for the T4R. Of course, the year I bought it is when they went to low sulfur diesel and the price jumped....it was always lower than gasoline up until that point. But, that's my luck:bash: I really liked the jeep, it was fun to drive, I got about 28 mpg's all around driving, and about 20 pulling my boat. The problem was getting anyone to work on it since they only sold them in the States in 2005 and 06...plus the price of parts was pretty darn high. $1800 to do timing belt and water pump. I had 135,000 miles on it when I traded it in. Didn't want to chance something major going out causing big bux and down time. I sure do like the extra space in the T4R though, that Jeep just didn't have enough room.

Dave

 

[4r2014]

I have not experienced any of the negatives stated here with my '13 ML diesel with 455 ft lbs of torque. And it was only a $1500 premium. If the 4R was avail as a hybrid, as mismatched as it sounds, I'd take hard look at it. Then again, I do not do any four wheelin'. I might go down some light trails and see snow several days per year in Cali mountains. The '14 4R fit what I wanted (not what I needed) and I like driving it.

 

[philsey]

I have not experienced any of the negatives stated here with my '13 ML diesel ......

Ha! A '13, probably costing in the mid-$50K -- I'd sure hope not.

..... And it was only a $1500 premium.

Hmmm, according to MB.com, base 3.5 gas to base 3.0 diesel is $4K.

 

[Jeff614]

As far as the VW HPFP failures, VW is actually stepping up and covering these now under the powertrain warranty, as well as they have replaced them a bit outside of warranty, as long as the failure wasn't due to misfueling. I have heard of people with 80k miles being taken care of by VW. The problem with the HPFP is that diesel is used as it's lubricant, and water in the fuel, or someone misfueling with gasoline can cause them to explode. For cost saving reasons, VW doesn't put enough filters in the fuel system, so when the HPFP grenades, it sends metal particles throughout the entire fuel system, destroying everything, which costs about $10k to fix.

I am not sure how far out of warranty VW will cover HPFP failures, but I wouldn't want to find out the hard way! I also wouldn't want a VW tech doing that kind of major work on my car either!

That's good to hear for all the Vdub owners out there. Those TDI's certainly are appealing. Nice to hear they are warrantying them to a degree.

I won't speak for Dodge or GM as mine were '04 and '07 and escaped most of the HPFP issues. But from cruising the Powerstroke forums and a few conversations with my Ford dealer about my 2011, many of the HPFP failures have been blamed on poor quality fuel, specifically the lack of lubrication in the new "Ultra Low Sulfur" diesel fuel.

Full disclosure; I have no first hand knowledge of this but common consensus from peoples experiences posted online, it seems they are forced to go through their insurance company to cover the +/-10K repair....ouch....

Excited to see what Nissan does with the Cummins though. Heard it was going to be a 5.0 V8 instead of the venerable inline design, but could be mistaken.

Either way, I'm really looking forward to the reliable, decently powered, average fuel economy in my future 4Runner.


Jeff

 

[Bourbonator]

I'll keep driving my 4r and love every second of it. When I get the diesel itch, I'll go drive my mother's diesel x5. While I love my 4r, the x5 pulls like a bull on pcp.


Separate note - can anyone tell me why everything I post is underlined?

 

[4r2014]

Ha! A '13, probably costing in the mid-$50K -- I'd sure hope not.

Cost of a vehicle has little to do with reliability in this range. I bet a 4R will def be more reliable in many ways especially since I added pricey tech toys. I wasn't referring to actual mechanical issues, I speaking to the "drawbacks" that some here have stated.

Hmmm, according to MB.com, base 3.5 gas to base 3.0 diesel is $4K.

You are pricing a RWD gasser vs an AWD Bluetec. AWD is $2500.

 

[MeBe4running]

Let me try to give Ollie a simple answer:

"Some of the items mentioned above are true. Some are not. The simplest answer is this: If you don't tow heavy loads regularly, it makes no economic sense to buy a diesel." There. I said it. Yes, it smells bad, yes the government makes it more difficult to pass emissions and yes, all the other little tidbits too. Bottom line is "It costs up to 10% of the VEHICLE price, upfront, to buy a diesel equipped SUV over their gasoline counterparts. In addition, right now diesel is around $1.00 more per gallon than 87 gas. Here is the math, and I'm only doing this again because Ollie is a stand up guy:

Assume
15,000 miles/yr
Vehicle gets 20 mpg with gas
Vehicle gets 26 mpg with diesel and I am being generous.
Gasoline cost is $3.50/gal (here)
Diesel cost is $4.50/gal (here)

To drive 15,000 miles a year, it will cost you: (Miles driven/miles per gal)(fuel price per gal)
$2,625.00 a year to fuel your vehicle with gasoline
$2,596.00 a year to fuel your vehicle with diesel
A savings of a whopping $29.00 a year.

Now to pay off that initial premium price of oh, say $3,500.00 for the privilege of driving a diesel it will take you about 120 YEARS to pay for it. In reality by the time you buy the exhaust fluid for the diesel you will go in the hole and it will cost you more to drive than gasoline.

Now, if you NEED the torque because you are towing at the limit every. single. day. then yes, you need the diesel.

I am not made of money, I don't tow at the limit every day and diesel fuel stinks.
Until it makes economic sense to the average consumer then diesel will not be a popular choice here in the US. There you go [MENTION=51868]MeBe4running[/MENTION].

SOLD. You should of been a salesman's... actually maybe not. This makes black and white sense to me. Thank you Greg for taking the time! Its funny I LOVE the smell and LOVE the noise of Diesel because I grew up with it. I have a few friends (UK) who make Red Diesel and thats what I would do if I had a Diesel Engine. Oh I still want a diesel Greg :sorry:

 

[dekeman]

2015 Titan is going to come with a 5.0-litre diesel, close to 500 hp, according to a key Nissan engineer working on it. Expect to see it at Detroit show in Jan.
Nissan has to bring that much because revised EcoBoost V6 will have more power in the 2015 F-150 (and be 700 lbs lighter).

 

[JeremyB]

Separate note - can anyone tell me why everything I post is underlined?

Separator for ads beneath your post.

2015 Titan is going to come with a 5.0-litre diesel, close to 500 hp, according to a key Nissan engineer working on it. Expect to see it at Detroit show in Jan.
Nissan has to bring that much because revised EcoBoost V6 will have more power in the 2015 F-150 (and be 700 lbs lighter).

I'd imagine that's 500 ft-lb, not horsepower. Probably around 300 hp.

 

[Bahnstoermer]

Sigh.

1. After reading this thread and getting at least a little up to date on diesel reality in the US, I'll stop talking about wanting a diesel Tundra now. I had been intentionally ignoring those bottles of shit at the auto parts store for diesels, knowing the path understanding their purpose would lead me down.

2. The previous is only true because the goddamn government ruins everything.

I'll just have to make my 4.7 last forever, because I'm not going back to a freaking 6 cyl either, at least without boost!

 

[4r2014]

Let me try to give Ollie a simple answer:

"Some of the items mentioned above are true. Some are not. The simplest answer is this: If you don't tow heavy loads regularly, it makes no economic sense to buy a diesel." There. I said it. Yes, it smells bad, yes the government makes it more difficult to pass emissions and yes, all the other little tidbits too. Bottom line is "It costs up to 10% of the VEHICLE price, upfront, to buy a diesel equipped SUV over their gasoline counterparts. In addition, right now diesel is around $1.00 more per gallon than 87 gas. Here is the math, and I'm only doing this again because Ollie is a stand up guy:

Assume
15,000 miles/yr
Vehicle gets 20 mpg with gas
Vehicle gets 26 mpg with diesel and I am being generous.
Gasoline cost is $3.50/gal (here)
Diesel cost is $4.50/gal (here)

To drive 15,000 miles a year, it will cost you: (Miles driven/miles per gal)(fuel price per gal)
$2,625.00 a year to fuel your vehicle with gasoline
$2,596.00 a year to fuel your vehicle with diesel
A savings of a whopping $29.00 a year.

Now to pay off that initial premium price of oh, say $3,500.00 for the privilege of driving a diesel it will take you about 120 YEARS to pay for it. In reality by the time you buy the exhaust fluid for the diesel you will go in the hole and it will cost you more to drive than gasoline.

Now, if you NEED the torque because you are towing at the limit every. single. day. then yes, you need the diesel.

I am not made of money, I don't tow at the limit every day and diesel fuel stinks.
Until it makes economic sense to the average consumer then diesel will not be a popular choice here in the US. There you go [MENTION=51868]MeBe4running[/MENTION].

That's a fair assessment for the 4R and many other diesels.

However in SoCal, diesel fuel ranges in cost anywhere from below 87 to above 91, depending on the year. Also some diesel "premiums" are much lower than $3500, mine was $1500. Fuel mileage for my diesel is easily 35-40% better in my real world driving compared to the non-diesel. Fuel cost calculations are further changed when the non-diesel requires 91 octane.

I never tow anything. But I prefer the power band of this tree-stump-pulling diesel over the gas model and I value not having to go to the pump as often. Plus, having a diesel is a cooler story.

There are drawbacks or what some consider drawbacks which I think are overstated. My diesel truck requires urea to be added yearly for emissions purposes. Cost is under $20 per year if you DIY, which is very easy because it's as simple a pumping/adding fuel. Many state how bad diesel fuel smells. I am sensitive to offensive smells but I don't see the big deal if you know what gasoline smells like. The thing that bothers me the most about pumping diesel fuel is that the handles at stations are not replaced as often and show more wear.

Some people even have diesel availability anxiety. This was a big one for me before buying. I have taken this truck on several road trips and never had any issues however some areas may be different, I just haven't come across them and I'm guessing diesel will become even more plentiful as the diesel market grows.

Cost difference aside, some people want to drive the diesel version. There is no right or wrong, it's all about preference, and the value you place on the diesel version.

 

[1engineer]

That's a fair assessment for the 4R and many other diesels.

However in SoCal, diesel fuel ranges in cost anywhere from below 87 to above 91, depending on the year. Also some diesel "premiums" are much lower than $3500, mine was $1500. Fuel mileage for my diesel is easily 35-40% better in my real world driving compared to the non-diesel. Fuel cost calculations are further changed when the non-diesel requires 91 octane.

I never tow anything. But I prefer the power band of this tree-stump-pulling diesel over the gas model and I value not having to go to the pump as often. Plus, having a diesel is a cooler story.

There are drawbacks or what some consider drawbacks which I think are overstated. My diesel truck requires urea to be added yearly for emissions purposes. Cost is under $20 per year if you DIY, which is very easy because it's as simple a pumping/adding fuel. Many state how bad diesel fuel smells. I am sensitive to offensive smells but I don't see the big deal if you know what gasoline smells like. The thing that bothers me the most about pumping diesel fuel is that the handles at stations are not replaced as often and show more wear.

Some people even have diesel availability anxiety. This was a big one for me before buying. I have taken this truck on several road trips and never had any issues however some areas may be different, I just haven't come across them and I'm guessing diesel will become even more plentiful as the diesel market grows.

Cost difference aside, some people want to drive the diesel version. There is no right or wrong, it's all about preference, and the value you place on the diesel version.

You paid the premium when you bought a MB.

 

[4r2014]

[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] made a brilliant argument.

I'll make an emotional one.

Your wife takes out your diesel SUV out for a night on the town with her girlfriends. She's wearing her best dress, 300 dollar shoes, French perfume I that's sold by the OUNCE, and enough rocks to make J-lo envious. The needle is close to "E."

Do you really think she's going to pump 30 gallons of stinking diesel, then reek of diesel on her night out because that shit smell don't wash off? Do you really think she wants to smell like a truck stop for all day every time she gets fuel?

Hell, unless you're married to a good ol Southern and/or farm girl, your wife is NOT going to pump diesel. You couldn't bribe her to.

Call me sexist, but I'm right.

My wife is a cali beach girl who dresses well at her corporate gig and happily will get diesel fuel. She never once smelled like it. Nor have I. Are we doing it wrong?