Trying to further understand why we STILL have no diesel options?

[4r2014]

You paid the premium when you bought a MB.

That's an over simplistic retort and has nothing to back it up regarding the smaller diesel premium. The point is that the math to upgrade to diesel is not always the same.

 

[Whiplash Willy]

Excited to see what Nissan does with the Cummins though. Heard it was going to be a 5.0 V8 instead of the venerable inline design, but could be mistaken.


Jeff

Are you sure about the 5.0 V8? Maybe things have changed since I last looked.

Part of the US diesel problem is that all we get (with a few exceptions) are giant not-as-efficient v6 and v8 diesels. If we were to see more reasonably sized diesel engines that had enough power to get the job done, and return good fuel economy, I think that would help the cause. But as it stands, we are only seeing a few more MPGs for the diesel versions, at the cost of thousands up front, and more expensive fuel.

 

[Jeff614]

AutoBlog and Popular Mechanics are both reporting the 5.0 V8 Cummins for the Titan but who knows... Seems like there's been rumors for years of a smaller diesel engine making its way into to just about every automakers 1/2 ton trucks.

A 5.0 V8 Cummins sure does seem large even for a Titan considering what the larger V8 diesels weigh these days and the running gear required for their power output. Guess we will have to wait and see. More options are always a good thing for the consumer though.

I love diesels but the new emissions tiers are absolutely killing the joy and advantages that once made diesel engines worth the premium price tag.


As to folks worrying about their significant other feeding it gas instead of diesel, isn't there a pretty popular commercial for the Audi A6 CleanDiesel right now that shows a well-dressed lady putting the green nozzle into her Audi, only to have a crowd of guys come running to to point out what she's doing "wrong"? :lol:

I'd be far more worried about some well intentioned soul topping off my DEF fluid into the fuel tank itself:wow2:


Jeff

 

[LandCruiser]

My wife is a cali beach girl who dresses well at her corporate gig and happily will get diesel fuel. She never once smelled like it. Nor have I. Are we doing it wrong?

My wife can smell a fart in a hurricane.

 

[NoDak]

My wife can smell a fart in a hurricane.

now that made me laugh

 

[4r2014]

My wife can smell a fart in a hurricane.

Same with mine. Superhuman.

 

[1engineer]

That's an over simplistic retort and has nothing to back it up regarding the smaller diesel premium. The point is that the math to upgrade to diesel is not always the same.

My "retort" simply means you bought a vehicle that is considered "premium" to begin with. You are correct that the math is not always the same, hence the reasoning to compare the math of apples (4Runner) to apples (JGC, Dodge truck, etc) instead of apples (4Runner) to kiwis (Benz, Audi, etc.) You are already paying a premium for the MB over a 4Runner or Jeep. BTW if you go to the MB website the difference is $4K for the diesel version of the ML350. You must have got a good deal.

 

[4r2014]

My "retort" simply means you bought a vehicle that is considered "premium" to begin with. You are correct that the math is not always the same, hence the reasoning to compare the math of apples (4Runner) to apples (JGC, Dodge truck, etc) instead of apples (4Runner) to kiwis (Benz, Audi, etc.) You are already paying a premium for the MB over a 4Runner or Jeep. BTW if you go to the MB website the difference is $4K for the diesel version of the ML350. You must have got a good deal.

An MB is considered premium, but what does that mean in our context? You might be surprised at its value compared to a top of the line JGCd or theoretical diesel 4R Limited. People put different values on different things and there are many ways to calc value. Lucky for everyone, there are many choices.

No one was comparing the 4R to the ML in terms of diesel. I just expanded on the idea of what the cost of "upgrading" to diesel can mean outside of the marques you mentioned.

Regarding the ML pricing, you are comparing a RWD gasser vs an AWD Bluetec. AWD is $2500.

 

[Canazes9]

My wife can smell a fart in a hurricane.

Hmmm

Don't think I'll ever get more than one invitation to your house....

David

 

[dekeman]

Love how everyone is so passionate about dinosaur juice.
Hopefully the same holds true for the fuel cell coming for the 4R.

 

[philsey]

My wife can smell a fart in a hurricane.

Same with mine. Superhuman.

Wait ...... y'all'r allowed to fart?

 

[FrontRange4Runner]

An MB is considered premium, but what does that mean in our context? You might be surprised at its value compared to a top of the line JGCd or theoretical diesel 4R Limited. People put different values on different things and there are many ways to calc value. Lucky for everyone, there are many choices.

No one was comparing the 4R to the ML in terms of diesel. I just expanded on the idea of what the cost of "upgrading" to diesel can mean outside of the marques you mentioned.

Regarding the ML pricing, you are comparing a RWD gasser vs an AWD Bluetec. AWD is $2500.

This is correct. The base ML does not come with AWD, comparing apples to apples, there is only about 1.5K difference in price.

 

[4r2014]

Love how everyone is so passionate about dinosaur juice.
Hopefully the same holds true for the fuel cell coming for the 4R.

Fuel cell 4R will be awesome. So are the ones that run on dinosaur juice.

 

[dekeman]

Wait ...... y'all'r allowed to fart?

I'm not sure I like where this is going.
Once brought home a $180,000 911 Turbo and invited Mrs. outside to sit in the sport seats and smell the leather.
What was the first thing she did?
Get. Out. Now. Forever banned.

 

[GA-4RUNNER]

Just wandering how the inline design is vulnerable? Many inline engines have lasted thousands of miles with worry free driving. Clue me in please.

 

[nevada]

that premium would go down a lot if they started putting diesels in more vehicles. that's not a very good argument against them.

 

[Jeff614]

Just wandering how the inline design is vulnerable? Many inline engines have lasted thousands of miles with worry free driving. Clue me in please.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Was pretty sure I typed venerable and not vulnerable.

Not to say that there aren't plenty of tough V8 diesels out there (7.3 Powerstroke comes to mind), but when it comes to Cummins, my mind just sort of goes automatically to the good old venerable inline design diesel like the ISB, ISM, and ISX. Can't think of any class 8's that use anything but an inline design.

:cheers: Jeff

 

[GA-4RUNNER]

True and agreed. My blind eyes misread. Sorry about that.

 

[jrandom]

My three cents, seem to coincide with a lot of other opinions too. What I have noticed diesel is great for:

Pulling load

Running hydraulic pumps

Diesel driven generators (almost seems like the Prius/hybrids should be running a smaller diesel just for gen/regen)*shrug*

Yes the stink (nothing better than running one with an exhaust leak), its messy (gas evaps, diesel fuel leaves residue), expensive.



I am just wondering where our 6+ speed transmission is.

 

[Quentin]

Not only do most vehicle models in other parts of the world have diesel engine options, but they have multiple different petrol and diesel options available. Here in the US, we are lucky to have 2 different petrol engine choices. They can also get a manual transmission in just about anything.

I owned a 2012 VW TDI Golf 6-speed manual for about a year and 10k miles before I had to upsize to the 4runner to accommodate my growing family.

With its 140hp and 236 lbs/ft torque, it wasn't going to win any runs to 60mph, but I always had way more power I needed, any time I needed it. Whether I was stopped, or cruising at any speed, with just a little application of the "go pedal" that thing would really get up and go. Especially on steep hills. I loved the driving characteristics of that thing. It didn't hurt either that I was getting 36mpg in the city and 49mpg on the hwy!

However, that TDI was very complex, poorly assembled, and very expensive to fix. I would never own one out of warranty. $10,000 for a new fuel system from a failed HPFP, $2000 for a new turbo, $2000 for new DPF, $2500 for a new DMF, are just some of the possible expenses you could see before 100k miles. My TDI was already leaking oil before I reached 10k miles....

There are a lot of things that can go wrong, and they often do. People who went 20k to 40k miles without any problems got excited, and bad or inexperienced VW techs made minor repairs into major issues. Granted Toyota vs VW quality and reliability can't be compared, but Toyota does have some reliability issues with their diesels as well.

With my 4runner, I am getting about half the MPGs as the TDI (and paying about $0.20/mile vs $0.11/mile in fuel) and it always feels underpowered, unless I floor it, which is very annoying, but I like not always having to worry about taking it into the shop, or wondering if that weird noise/feeling is something very expensive breaking.

On a side note, during the Winter, diesel can be close to $1 more a gallon, but in the summer, I have seen the same price as regular.

2 points. You do have the power any time you need it. The gearbox will downshift and, especially in today's powerful vehicles, you will accelerate. It is safe to rev out these engines. We run their sister, the 2GR, at redline for 180hrs during testing.

My second point is about configurations. In the US, we pay a fraction of what the rest of the world does for their vehicles. They may offer 5 engine and transmission variations of a Prado around the world, but they are also paying $60k for them. Toyota has to build what they can reliably sell. For the dozen of us that would be all over a full time 4WD 6MT from the FJ in our 4Runners, there are hundreds that would want nothing to do with it. Configurations cost money from the development side all the way to the showroom floor plan.