URD 7th injector tuning maps

I got a new toy for Christmas and have been playing with it on the SC 4Runner. I got my fuel map dialed in pretty nice at 11.8 - 12.0 but I've always struggled with the timing map a bit as I didn't have a real good way to data log it. I have the OBD2 BR-3 but it was always a bit slow.

My wife got me a OBDLink MX for Christmas and it's bad ass. I hopped on the Google store and grabbed the Torque Pro app for $4.95 and set it up for the 4Runner. I was able to data log my timing advance with RPMs, boost, and AFR to see what was what.

I've been using URD's timing map with custom modifications by me. One thing I'm noticing is the timing is SUPER low. I have a supercharged Dodge Challenger and in that car my tuner set my timing at 14.5 - 16 degrees at WOT and 93 octane fuel. That car is making 14psi of boost and 600RWHP and runs like a scalded dog. It does have a fully built forged motor and is 9:1 compression.

Now that I've data logged the timing in my 4Runner it seems it's barely 10 degrees max and is as low as 4 degrees in some places. It doesn't seem like most understand tuning as I rarely see folks talking about it so I was glad to stumble across this thread. I'm pretty well versed in tuning and am going to try to make some big changes to this timing map.

One big thing is the way the map is laid out. I don't see a reason to use anything other than .5° increments. That's also how my Challenger is setup. Secondly I would hope the motor can handle more than 7° of timing at 4,000RPM and 9psi. I don't expect it to take 16° like the Challenger's built motor, but at least 11° or so?
 
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Speedy said:
I got a new toy for Christmas and have been playing with it on the SC 4Runner. I got my fuel map dialed in pretty nice at 11.8 - 12.0 but I've always struggled with the timing map a bit as I didn't have a real good way to data log it. I have the OBD2 BR-3 but it was always a bit slow.

My wife got me a OBDLink MX for Christmas and it's bad ass. I hopped on the Google store and grabbed the Torque Pro app for $4.95 and set it up for the 4Runner. I was able to data log my timing advance with RPMs, boost, and AFR to see what was what.

I've been using URD's timing map with custom modifications by me. One thing I'm noticing is the timing is SUPER low. I have a supercharged Dodge Challenger and in that car my tuner set my timing at 14.5 - 16 degrees at WOT and 93 octane fuel. That car is making 14psi of boost and 600RWHP and runs like a scalded dog. It does have a fully built forged motor and is 9:1 compression.

Now that I've data logged the timing in my 4Runner it seems it's barely 10 degrees max and is as low as 4 degrees in some places. It doesn't seem like most understand tuning as I rarely see folks talking about it so I was glad to stumble across this thread. I'm pretty well versed in tuning and am going to try to make some big changes to this timing map.

One big thing is the way the map is laid out. I don't see a reason to use anything other than .5° increments. That's also how my Challenger is setup. Secondly I would hope the motor can handle more than 7° of timing at 4,000RPM and 9psi. I don't expect it to take 16° like the Challenger's built motor, but at least 11° or so?
Click to expand...

Yea the timing map does seem really low. But on pump gas thats safe for adding boost to higher compression pistons that these motors have (9.6:1, dont sound high but with boost it is) to make power naturally aspirated.

Now your built motor challenger is running lower 9.1 compression pistons to be boost safe. You can run a lot of timing with boost on 93 with that compression.

On my turbo talon I could get away with about 18psi on the stock timing map which hits near 22* on 7.8:1 stock pistons with pump gas before going detonation happy. To get more boost I had to go as low as 12* max timing to get the most power out of the car.

On e85 with 8.5:1 pistons I could get away with 22* max timing at WOT running a small turbo at 32psi and it ran great.

IMO if you want to play with the timing I would be careful. Make sure your not detonating. Or upgrade fuel system, run e85 and go timing crazy! But again if you playing with timing you want to do it on the dyno and find minimum best torque or MBT. Cant do that with the butt dyno.
 
The OBDLink MX has a Horse Power, Torque, 0-60, 1/4 mile, 1/8 miles timers so I can check progress. I can tell the 4Runner is down on power sometimes so the timing map needs a tweak for sure. I was always hesitant to mess with it too much since I didn't have a good way to data log, now I do.

On stock Challengers with 10.3:1 compression engines and 8psi of boost most tuners set them at 12-12.5 deg of timing on 93. This 4Runner should have quite a bit left in it. Think about how many of these things are out there not tuned at all! Toyota even told me to just bolt the blower on and drive it way back when I bought it. Unbelievable.

The timing isn't 100% controllable in the 4Runner anyway. The knock sensors are gonna do what they do if knock is detected. If that starts to occur I'll add timing retard back in at .5° intervals until it goes away. The Torque Pro program even has a built in knock detector :)
 
Speedy said:
The OBDLink MX has a Horse Power, Torque, 0-60, 1/4 mile, 1/8 miles timers so I can check progress. I can tell the 4Runner is down on power sometimes so the timing map needs a tweak for sure. I was always hesitant to mess with it too much since I didn't have a good way to data log, now I do.

On stock Challengers with 10.3:1 compression engines and 8psi of boost most tuners set them at 12-12.5 deg of timing on 93. This 4Runner should have quite a bit left in it. Think about how many of these things are out there not tuned at all! Toyota even told me to just bolt the blower on and drive it way back when I bought it. Unbelievable.

The timing isn't 100% controllable in the 4Runner anyway. The knock sensors are gonna do what they do if knock is detected. If that starts to occur I'll add timing retard back in at .5° intervals until it goes away. The Torque Pro program even has a built in knock detector :)
Click to expand...

Yea knock sensors can be tricky. I had to finally disable mine on my talon because it would read phantom knock and made it so hard to make power when the sensor was reading 43 counts of knock at idle. LOL

I agree. There has to be a lot left in it, especially at high rpm WOT. I do know these things like to be knock happy at low and mid throttle with the stock timing map and fuel map with only 6-8psi which is pretty crazy since the compression, AFR and timing maps are pretty good. So its a knock happy motor to begin with.
 
Agreed. Back when I was tuning mine I had a helluva time getting the HG/Low RPM ping to stop. In my current timing map I'm removing 7.1 deg at 6psi and 2500 RPM. I tuned mine on a 100° summer day though. I'm gonna play with it a bit and see where it ends up. With the knock sensors it may be as good as it's gonna get.
 
Well, I did some searching to see if I could find some timing maps to compare and found some interesting info on CustomTacos. It seems that above 3,000 RPM the computer totally controls the timing regardless of what you do with the piggy back. I "thought" they worked together, but turns out that's not so if what I've read is correct. In the 7th Injector guide from URD they do say to remove timing so that you get the same over all timing as you did stock. Bone stock my timing at WOT and 5K RPM was 20.5° on a 100 degree day. I did setup my timing map so that at WOT an OBDII scanner shows 20°. According to folks over there if you take away 10 degrees of timing the computer will just add it back in. If you add 10 degrees the computer will just take it away. It's all based on if the knock sensors detect knock.

Guess mine's tuned about as good as it's gonna get.
 
Speedy said:
Well, I did some searching to see if I could find some timing maps to compare and found some interesting info on CustomTacos. It seems that above 3,000 RPM the computer totally controls the timing regardless of what you do with the piggy back. I "thought" they worked together, but turns out that's not so if what I've read is correct. In the 7th Injector guide from URD they do say to remove timing so that you get the same over all timing as you did stock. Bone stock my timing at WOT and 5K RPM was 20.5° on a 100 degree day. I did setup my timing map so that at WOT an OBDII scanner shows 20°. According to folks over there if you take away 10 degrees of timing the computer will just add it back in. If you add 10 degrees the computer will just take it away. It's all based on if the knock sensors detect knock.

Guess mine's tuned about as good as it's gonna get.
Click to expand...

That would make a lot of sense because in the past ive heard these ecus dont have much options for timing control.
 
Speedy said:
In my current timing map I'm removing 7.1 deg at 6psi and 2500 RPM. I tuned mine on a 100° summer day though.
Click to expand...

That's pretty close to what I'm doing too...5.8 deg of retard at 6.5 psi, tuned for summer.

Is your 4Runner infrequently driven? (i.e. chance of stale fuel?) Your timing does seem a bit low, as if it's detecting pinging and pulling timing. (And I'm limited to 91 octane fuel.) I found that it's better to take away just slightly more timing and prevent ping all-together, then to set it at a point where it can still ping, because then it pulls lots of timing.

I'll be curious to see how your tuning goes. I adopted your technique of using Camstudio to record AFR and the R4 software at the same time...brilliant. But timing I have tuned just by driving and trying to tune out knock. Mine was at the low RPMs, like 2500-ish and never above 3000.

Your comment about 3,000 RPMs---that RPM is relevant because that's when the knock sensors start listening for pinging. The ECU ignores the knock sensors below that RPM because it can't distinguish internal engine sounds from pinging at low RPMs, and that's why these engines get the low RPM ping with boost. You should only be tuning out the sub-3000 RPM ping, and good or bad, the factory ECU will take care of anything over 3000RPMs. Any retard you add above 3000 RPMs is just for blending.
 
I drive it quite a bit so I wouldn't expect stale fuel. It's been 7 years since I tuned the timing map so I'm gonna play with it a bit and see where it goes. I'm loving this OBDLink MX tool.
 
Well, a little update. Turns out I did have the 4Runner tuned about as good as I can get it with the control we have. I started messing with the timing a bit and as I'd add in a degree here and there the computer just took it away again when I compared logs.

I did some playing and had a 0-60 time of 8.9 seconds and that's with 32x11.50 tires with TRD calipers and rotors. Not bad for a pretty heavy ride and a smallish V6 with a blower :)
 
Speedy said:
Well, a little update. Turns out I did have the 4Runner tuned about as good as I can get it with the control we have. I started messing with the timing a bit and as I'd add in a degree here and there the computer just took it away again when I compared logs.

I did some playing and had a 0-60 time of 8.9 seconds and that's with 32x11.50 tires with TRD calipers and rotors. Not bad for a pretty heavy ride and a smallish V6 with a blower :)
Click to expand...

That sucks about timing control. Ive never researched but has anyone used like a megasquirt or haltech or AEM EMS on these vehicles? Be fun to run an e85 turbo setup with the trd supercharger installed. Instant boost.
 
Base map for 2002 4Runner

I purchased my 7th injector used and am suspicious of the tune on the map loaded.

Can someone PM me the base map that was supposed to ship with the unit when it was new?
 
isu2014 said:
OP, what does your current tune look like? I can't get rid of ping around 1800-2300 rpm. I added fuel down there, played with timing, and nothing works. It always pings. I also can't get to 9.5psi of boost like I hit before on one of my old tunes. I get about 7psi on the 2.2" pulley. I'm running the AIC and AFR calibrators, deck plate mod, headers, cat delete, and dumped 2.5" exhaust.
Click to expand...

Did you ever figure out your problem? I have something very similar going on.
 
Bumping my old thread. I am experiencing a new problem I haven't experienced before, it's almost like the URD box quit working (but I'm sure it's working).
My tuning maps have changed very little over the years but all of a sudden it's getting really lean in open loop, like 14.2:1-14.6:1 when it used to be around 12.8:1. As long as I'm over 2 psi and in closed loop, the "closed loop fuel enrichment" feature is still working as AFRs drop to around 13.1:1. So the URD box is definitely working, but something is going on when I go full throttle and into open loop.

I can connect to the URD ECU via a PC, download maps, make edit and upload the maps and it works fine. Closed loop fuel enrichment works fine. No check engine lights, recently passed CA smog fine. Still getting 17-19.5 MPG. But I can feel a loss of power and see 14.2-14.6:1 AFRs at full throttle. I confirmed that the Toyota ECU is definitely going in and out of closed loop mode.

Any ideas? I did just change the TPS with an OEM Toyota one about the time the problems showed up, but my OBD reader shows a pretty typical TPS response between 17% (at idle) and 87% at WOT.
 
What fuel pump are you running? It may be on its way out. You said even if you change the fuel map there's no change in AFR?

You may try some fuel system cleaner as well. I'd imagine a bad/clogged/sticky injector could cause a lean AFR as well.
 
regulator213 said:
What fuel pump are you running? It may be on its way out. You said even if you change the fuel map there's no change in AFR?

You may try some fuel system cleaner as well. I'd imagine a bad/clogged/sticky injector could cause a lean AFR as well.
Click to expand...

I'm running the Walbro 190 that came with the URD kit. I will try some fuel cleaner, it couldn't hurt. Your ideas are plausible; keep the ideas coming.
 
I just read your build thread. I wouldn't imagine you're having any issue with the fuel pump with the walbro being installed. I have the 2.2" pulley with the 7th injector kit and I am still using the stock fuel pump with 12-12.5 AFR at WOT here in the bay area.

In the mean time I would pull your plugs out and check to see how they are burning. Its free, easy to check, and may give you some insight to how your fuel system is performing.
 
paddlenbike said:
Bumping my old thread. I am experiencing a new problem I haven't experienced before, it's almost like the URD box quit working (but I'm sure it's working).
My tuning maps have changed very little over the years but all of a sudden it's getting really lean in open loop, like 14.2:1-14.6:1 when it used to be around 12.8:1. As long as I'm over 2 psi and in closed loop, the "closed loop fuel enrichment" feature is still working as AFRs drop to around 13.1:1. So the URD box is definitely working, but something is going on when I go full throttle and into open loop.

I can connect to the URD ECU via a PC, download maps, make edit and upload the maps and it works fine. Closed loop fuel enrichment works fine. No check engine lights, recently passed CA smog fine. Still getting 17-19.5 MPG. But I can feel a loss of power and see 14.2-14.6:1 AFRs at full throttle. I confirmed that the Toyota ECU is definitely going in and out of closed loop mode.

Any ideas? I did just change the TPS with an OEM Toyota one about the time the problems showed up, but my OBD reader shows a pretty typical TPS response between 17% (at idle) and 87% at WOT.
Click to expand...

My bet is your boost line going to the URD ECU is either cracked and loosing boost, or has come disconnected. Remember that map is boost referenced.
 
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