Would you trade your NA v6 for a turbo 4cyl?

IMO the big lazy V6 is just fine for the 4runner, this thing is far from a sport truck.

If I want some turbo fun I drive the wife's 2015 Forester XT.

If I want some tiresmoke I hop in the modded 2002 SVT Lightning.

I love my 4runner big and slow and comfy just the way it is.
 
Not sure if I would want another turbo vehicle after my 2012 F150 Ecoboost. Initially, it was great. Awesome power no matter the elevation, crisp shifts, tons of room. It delivered decent mpg but never really got the claimed mpg except the very first drive home from the dealer, about 23 mpg the whole 250 mile trip. Unfortunately, I had random issues from about month 2 until I traded it at 45k miles (2 years). By 40k, that truck had a bunch of problems, excessive blow-by, a constant misfire when idling, timing chain rattle and rod knock on a cold start, BCM had trouble "waking up", front hubs would not lock in when you needed it most. FoMoCo acknowledged most of the issues but either had no fix, or refused to let the tech repair it. I'm not sure I would ever own another Ford after that experience. The power is nice but having reliability is better.
 
It's really not fair to judge all Turbo vehicles based on Fords foray with them in the Ecoboost series. Other manufacturers have been using them for a very long time without issue. My Ecoboost at 40k has had zero issues and that's with 25psi stock boost on the 2014's and 30psi boost on the 2015+

My Saab's and Volvos had zero turbo issues even at 150k. Audi's on the other hand were known to have them especially on the twin turbo setups like the S4.
 
I had a Ford Edge with that turbo eco boost. The lag on that thing was horrible, if not dangerous. I have no idea if it had anything to do with the turbo, or the throttle system, so I am not blaming the turbo set up, but the lag was so dangerous I got rid of it for the 4r a bit earlier than my financial planning wanted to.

When pressing down on the throttle, the Edge would just there, hardly move, you had to let up about half way, or gently press down to get an actual response, could not stand it and totally different than any car I have driven. And my Ford diesels were turbo charged and did not have this problem.

I went to four different Ford dealers and they all said this was normal. No thanks, when I press on the throttle, I want it to go, not that sit there.
 
Interesting topic!

I've had many turbo cars, including we now have an 16 NX200T FSport and my 14 4RLE.

I kind of agree with [MENTION=135467]Swacer[/MENTION], but I think the actual engine is ok. When I drive the car, I notice lag, but that engine makes peak torque at 1650 rpm, so I tend to think it's not the engine, but the throttle mapping. "Sport" mode helps a bit.

I used to have WRX's and Audi 2.0T's, even a Saab 9-3 turbo(laaaaaggggg, now go like hell!)and my experience is that the stock mapping is obviously geared towards being conservative on the A/F mixture and eco friendly. My Audi's and Subbies were all tuned (off the shelf Cobb or APR) and it made them night and day better.

I've not found a chip for the NX200T yet, nor am I looking. It's my wifes car and it's fine. She's even commented my car is more "immediate" when in town, but on the highway (which we're on a lot) her car is hands down better. 50-70 mph is so much better in her car.

That being said, the 4runner isn't built to excel on the highway. It's 6 does a decent job, but 50-70 times are not it's strong point (nor should it be). I don't offroad a ton, but feathering the throttle on a steep rock/incline with turbo lag and the stock throttle mapping, to me, seems like a bad idea.

I'd rather see an atkinson cycle 4.6 liter option. Even a 4.x liter 8 with ~325 torque and ~300 hp would be nice. Something with a bit more than the 6 has.

TL:DR - Fix the throttle mapping and we'll talk. 300/325 would be nice. I actually like the Ford 3.5 Ecoboost motor a lot. not sure lag + off roading is a great idea. Small efficient V8 please and thank you.

Will go test drive that Volvo just because I'm curious now!

My 2 cents..

Thanks!
T
 
That EPA fine is entirely reasonable and within their power to do so. For what it's worth, EPA also came out and specifically stated that they do not regulate off road vehicles (ie race cars and others). Quoting some news article (another post) that interpreted an EPA proposed rulemaking (incorrectly) means literally nothing.

But what I responded to was the statement that it was an EPA violation. It isn't an "EPA violation", it's breaking the law.

CAFE does not dictate MPG on any single car. It is a fleet-wide standard on emissions and fuel economy. It is why Toyota gets away with making 20 mpg SUVs, and why Ford (with the F150 a large percent of sales) went all out with lightweighting and turbo-downsized motors.

Car companies are exceeding CAFE, and the average power of vehicles has still increased for various reasons. See here, page 8 (pdf page 13): https://www3.epa.gov/fueleconomy/fetrends/1975-2015/420r15016.pdf

So...how long have you worked for the EPA?

And no, loaded terms like "entirely reasonable " have no place in a conversation on CAFE. CAFE has barely any effect on anything other than making engines more complex and expensive than they would be without it: Don't Raise CAFE Standards | Cato Institute

Get out. Thanks.
 
I would not be opposed to a V6 turbo or twin turbo 4Runner, but I would be more happy with a 4.6 V8 from the GX460 (I don't care about gas mileage). Just want reliable passing and pulling power, and longevity of the powertrain.

I think even with a turbo or turbo's, a 4 Cyl would labor too much.
 
So...how long have you worked for the EPA?

And no, loaded terms like "entirely reasonable " have no place in a conversation on CAFE. CAFE has barely any effect on anything other than making engines more complex and expensive than they would be without it: Don't Raise CAFE Standards | Cato Institute

Get out. Thanks.

By the way, the standard is joint between EPA, NHTSA, and CARB.

I don't work for EPA. But, my job is to determine what is technologically and economically possible to help make sure the regulations actually work, and that they have a positive impact on the economy. For what it's worth, you and everyone else is free and welcome to submit comments on NPRMs; it's a legally open process, and they DO actively base their analysis and conclusions off those comments. You've had four opportunities to do so, including one right now that is probably open through early October. My guess is that those who criticize regulation so generally probably haven't submitted comments nor performed the "full time job" hours of analysis on one specific subject. Speculation and gut feelings lose out to scientific study. If you really do know something I and my colleagues don't, PLEASE submit comments.

But, Cafe does work, nobody doubts that. Even the automakers signed onto the program. Average gas mileage has improved quite a lot and other than 2008 and 2009, the average price of a new car is decreasing. In 2013, the average price of a new car is the lowest since 1983 (table 10.11), and you can find elsewhere that the price of new cars continued to decrease through 2015. The change in the quality/content of cars might decrease those numbers some, and it doesn't include trucks or SUVs. But lets be subjective -- trucks have increased in price because they went from farm or niche vehicles to full-on luxury vehicles. Trucks subject to cafe with similar chassis to trucks of the past (single cab, long bed) still exist and are dirt cheap but with modern drivetrains and CAFE compliance. FWIW, many manufacturer's compliance strategy is to overcomply with trucks rather than cars, because it's cheaper/easier?

You can do the exact same analysis the rest of us are doing and come to the same conclusions. There are quantifiable and measurable results in reduced emissions and fuel use, and in the additional cost of vehicles. Even with low gas prices, the regulation still saves people money.

And seriously, you post an article discussing a fuel economy standard published in 2007 by a think tank founded by one of the Koch brothers. For what it's worth, the standard is far different than the assumptions in that article. The NPRM for CAFE wasn't out until September 2009, so anything in 2007 was entirely speculative and has no bearing on the contents of the NPRM, let alone the final rule.

Engines are more complex and marginally more expensive, but they're overall better and more reliable. Do you complain that TVs and content sources are more complex, or do you suck up the risk and enjoy better and more reliable products? You get out (of the past), it's clear that the majority have decided they don't want to breathe dirty exhaust or depend on others for their energy. Are people seriously complaining about being able to drive more for the same amount of money? That's insane.

CAFE isn't taking away the cars people want. Just remember to thank a Prius driver....
 
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By the way, the standard is joint between EPA, NHTSA, and CARB.

I don't work for EPA. But, my job is to determine what is technologically and economically possible to help make sure the regulations actually work, and that they have a positive impact on the economy. For what it's worth, you and everyone else is free and welcome to submit comments on NPRMs; it's a legally open process, and they DO actively base their analysis and conclusions off those comments. You've had four opportunities to do so, including one right now that is probably open through early October. My guess is that those who criticize regulation so generally probably haven't submitted comments nor performed the "full time job" hours of analysis on one specific subject. Speculation and gut feelings lose out to scientific study. If you really do know something I and my colleagues don't, PLEASE submit comments.

But, Cafe does work, nobody doubts that. Even the automakers signed onto the program. Average gas mileage has improved quite a lot and other than 2008 and 2009, the average price of a new car is decreasing. In 2013, the average price of a new car is the lowest since 1983 (table 10.11), and you can find elsewhere that the price of new cars continued to decrease through 2015. The change in the quality/content of cars might decrease those numbers some, and it doesn't include trucks or SUVs. But lets be subjective -- trucks have increased in price because they went from farm or niche vehicles to full-on luxury vehicles. Trucks subject to cafe with similar chassis to trucks of the past (single cab, long bed) still exist and are dirt cheap but with modern drivetrains and CAFE compliance. FWIW, many manufacturer's compliance strategy is to overcomply with trucks rather than cars, because it's cheaper/easier?

You can do the exact same analysis the rest of us are doing and come to the same conclusions. There are quantifiable and measurable results in reduced emissions and fuel use, and in the additional cost of vehicles. Even with low gas prices, the regulation still saves people money.

And seriously, you post an article discussing a fuel economy standard published in 2007 by a think tank founded by one of the Koch brothers. For what it's worth, the standard is far different than the assumptions in that article. The NPRM for CAFE wasn't out until September 2009, so anything in 2007 was entirely speculative and has no bearing on the contents of the NPRM, let alone the final rule.

Engines are more complex and marginally more expensive, but they're overall better and more reliable. Do you complain that TVs and content sources are more complex, or do you suck up the risk and enjoy better and more reliable products? You get out (of the past), it's clear that the majority have decided they don't want to breathe dirty exhaust or depend on others for their energy. Are people seriously complaining about being able to drive more for the same amount of money? That's insane.

CAFE isn't taking away the cars people want. Just remember to thank a Prius driver....

So you do work for, as a member of, or in some other relation with the EPA or one of the other listed alphabet soups. Got it. We smelled you a mile away.

CAFE was successful at raising MPG. It did so at enormous cost and not much benefit. You claimed it was reasonable and moved the goal posts to defending its efficacy. You still haven't shown it to be reasonable. Actually, don't bother; no point in having a debate with someone who is in the pocket of the very bureaucracy being questioned.

I already submitted comments. I am also a full time government consultant. Spare your condescension and preaching and apologizing for one of the worst laws to ever be passed.

Also, leave and never come back to this forum. We will be much better off without shills like you posting apologist propaganda. Thanks.

Door is that way in case you get confused. It's the log out button. Click it once and never visit again.
 
Last edited:
So you do work for, as a member of, or in some other relation with the EPA. Got it. We smelled you a mile away.

CAFE was successful at raising MPG. It did so at enormous cost and not much benefit. You claimed it was reasonable and moved the goal posts to defending its efficacy. You still haven't shown it to be reasonable.

I already submitted comments. I am also a full time government consultant. Spare your condescension and preaching and apologizing for one of the worst laws to ever be passed.

Also, leave and never come back to this forum. We will be much better off without shills like you posting apologist propaganda. Thanks.

Door is that way in case you get confused. It's the log out button. Click it once and never visit again.

You call me a shill, but you made blanket generalizations and used irrelevant material to form an opinion on something that's entirely fact-based. I am no more affiliated with EPA than you, fellow taxpayer, are. Prove your statements, to yourself. Prove to yourself that the cost was enormous, because not even the automakers are saying that. What you're saying is nothing more than gut feeling. I quite literally posted reliable sources showing that cars are getting cheaper AND improving fuel economy, and you still posted that response.

Think about the Americans working in the supply chain that have well-paying technical and manufacturing jobs that wouldn't exist if we were still living in a world of OBDI. Think about when CAFE was introduced: 2009. What was 2009? The middle of a terrible recession, when everything the government did had some jobs and economic benefit attached to it.

And really, you know better than the BLS and ORNL? That's insane. The things churning out of BLS and national labs (among the most respected in the world) are what maintains our status as a world leader. Not random yokels, because every country has those...

If you commented, great. I'd love to read them and incorporate them into my own research. But, I, my colleagues, and the many other NGOs and universities doing work on this independently all point to a similar conclusion. You can think what you want, but I can prove what I'm saying -- and that's why I get paid to do it. And the people doing it far longer than me have results to prove that they were right. I understand you've spent maybe 30 or 40 minutes reading articles in the past few years about CAFE, but I've spent about 900 hours (so far) this year on related research. I work with three others who have spent the same amount of time, and we "fact check" and collaborate with about 30 other organizations and universities. I literally have zero reason to be biased, the money that funds my research has zero ties to transportation, oil, environment, etc. The money that funds my research is "go find what works best for the country, the people, and can save energy at the same time" -- if CAFE were ineffective, I would spend my time on something else.

Fortunately, you're just in the minority that posts big and loud on this issue without knowing much. The majority want cleaner, more efficient cars that, quite literally, save them money over the baseline because the analysis is there to prove it works. You should be angry that the automakers sold such shit before and are trying to weasel their way out of making further improvements just to make their shareholders happy and **** over their suppliers, at the expense of our clean air and national energy security. Keep on writing letters to the editor or comments to the agencies, I'm looking forward to squashing them with data that I bet my livelihood on.

You said you commented, and I took a look. Two are in support of the rule (so clearly not you), two are asking for a comment period extension (which isn't very interesting, if you had something to do with it), so I'll assume that your name is Walter Kreucher and boy, do you have a dramatic way of writing about hybrid electric vehicles!
 
Last edited:
By the way, the standard is joint between EPA, NHTSA, and CARB.

I don't work for EPA. But, my job is to determine what is technologically and economically possible to help make sure the regulations actually work, and that they have a positive impact on the economy. For what it's worth, you and everyone else is free and welcome to submit comments on NPRMs; it's a legally open process, and they DO actively base their analysis and conclusions off those comments. You've had four opportunities to do so, including one right now that is probably open through early October. My guess is that those who criticize regulation so generally probably haven't submitted comments nor performed the "full time job" hours of analysis on one specific subject. Speculation and gut feelings lose out to scientific study. If you really do know something I and my colleagues don't, PLEASE submit comments.

But, Cafe does work, nobody doubts that. Even the automakers signed onto the program. Average gas mileage has improved quite a lot and other than 2008 and 2009, the average price of a new car is decreasing. In 2013, the average price of a new car is the lowest since 1983 (table 10.11), and you can find elsewhere that the price of new cars continued to decrease through 2015. The change in the quality/content of cars might decrease those numbers some, and it doesn't include trucks or SUVs. But lets be subjective -- trucks have increased in price because they went from farm or niche vehicles to full-on luxury vehicles. Trucks subject to cafe with similar chassis to trucks of the past (single cab, long bed) still exist and are dirt cheap but with modern drivetrains and CAFE compliance. FWIW, many manufacturer's compliance strategy is to overcomply with trucks rather than cars, because it's cheaper/easier?

You can do the exact same analysis the rest of us are doing and come to the same conclusions. There are quantifiable and measurable results in reduced emissions and fuel use, and in the additional cost of vehicles. Even with low gas prices, the regulation still saves people money.

And seriously, you post an article discussing a fuel economy standard published in 2007 by a think tank founded by one of the Koch brothers. For what it's worth, the standard is far different than the assumptions in that article. The NPRM for CAFE wasn't out until September 2009, so anything in 2007 was entirely speculative and has no bearing on the contents of the NPRM, let alone the final rule.

Engines are more complex and marginally more expensive, but they're overall better and more reliable. Do you complain that TVs and content sources are more complex, or do you suck up the risk and enjoy better and more reliable products? You get out (of the past), it's clear that the majority have decided they don't want to breathe dirty exhaust or depend on others for their energy. Are people seriously complaining about being able to drive more for the same amount of money? That's insane.

CAFE isn't taking away the cars people want. Just remember to thank a Prius driver....

Please feel free to get off your soapbox at any time. But be careful not to fall off, its a pretty tall box.

So lets take a second and see just 3 things that the EPA has done for us:

1. PCV lines, which require us to recirculate oil back into our intake manifold, which does nothing but cake valves. So now you're stuck with either getting a catch can or getting your heads sandblasted every 100k miles. How much nicer it was to be able to route that right into the exhaust.

2. Removal of High Zinc Content Oil - Zinc is a great protector in engines, especially high performance engines. You have to know where to go to get high zinc oil, otherwise you will never be able to properly break in a cammed engine.

3. Removal of Leaded Gasoline - Another great engine protector, however thank god for racing gas

So I guess we can certainly thank Prius owners for showing what happens when you let the EPA implement all their standards. We end up with boring, ugly cars that produce self righteous owners.

Always wanted a shirt that had a Camaro on it and a Prius and said "you can save the environment, I'll save my self respect."
 
[MENTION=132221]DreadPirateMoyer[/MENTION]
[MENTION=139737]epjfsa[/MENTION]

If I were [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] , I'd ask you two to take the politics to PM. You've derailed this thread enough.

'kay?
 
[MENTION=132221]DreadPirateMoyer[/MENTION]

[MENTION=139737]epjfsa[/MENTION]

If I were [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] , I'd ask you two to take the politics to PM. You've derailed this thread enough.

'kay?

But you're not. This thread is about N/A engines being downsized for forced induction, most of which is due to CAFE regulations. The discussion is totally pertinent.

And on that discussion, we have a shill on the forums. A bona fide, honest-to-goodness shill. I'll keep calling them out when they're seen.

'kay?
 
So Ford has locked the ECU. My guess would be that those wanting to tune their Ford would just buy a 2nd ECU to swap in if warranty work were needed? Sure, they are pricey but so is diesel tuning. If you have a 3/4 to 1-ton 4wd diesel decked out and tuned then the cost of a spare ECU should be nothing.

Whenever someone says that something is dead this simply means the old way is out...and people are working on a new way in.
 
[MENTION=132221]DreadPirateMoyer[/MENTION]

[MENTION=139737]epjfsa[/MENTION]

If I were [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] , I'd ask you two to take the politics to PM. You've derailed this thread enough.

'kay?

But you're not.

Yeah but I am. [MENTION=132221]DreadPirateMoyer[/MENTION] all you need to do is call because arguing with people like [MENTION=139737]epjfsa[/MENTION] about stuff like this is like arguing about religion... or oil changes. Waste of space.
[MENTION=139737]epjfsa[/MENTION] you are welcome to post stuff like this in our off topic section and argue about it til you turn blue in the face. You ARE NOT welcome to totally derail a good proper thread and turn it into a promotion ad for how important your job is. Welcome to the club and I advise you to go read the rules on posting here before your stay is cut short.

-mod-
 
Yeah but I am. [MENTION=132221]DreadPirateMoyer[/MENTION] all you need to do is call because arguing with people like [MENTION=139737]epjfsa[/MENTION] about stuff like this is like arguing about religion... or oil changes. Waste of space.

[MENTION=139737]epjfsa[/MENTION] you are welcome to post stuff like this in our off topic section and argue about it til you turn blue in the face. You ARE NOT welcome to totally derail a good proper thread and turn it into a promotion ad for how important your job is. Welcome to the club and I advise you to go read the rules on posting here before your stay is cut short.

-mod-

You got it. No more from me on that subject.
 
So uh... how about that new Yaris eh?

Seriously though - Just sticking us with the 3.5 out of the Tacoma with no higher power option would really suck.
 

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