Isn't that all conference calls?
Best speculation of a 2023 6th generation I have seen
- Thread starter peter78
- Start date
Isn't that all conference calls?
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Jetboy
New member
Under the middle row is the most likely place. But the middle row has a flat floor or nearly flat floor, so it's basically just under the floorboard in the middle. That's the same place as the RX500h. It's not a very big battery pack by capacity at only 1.8kwh.
The Sequoia packaging is remarkably poor IMO. It's hard to think of a worse way they could have configured it. It's also partially the decision to use NiMH batteries in the Sequoia. Odd choice. Probably a result of Toyota's lack of battery source capacity. They're a lot larger and heavier than lithium would be. Ford Lightning fits them in a thin pack between the frame rails under the cab in a very similar vehicle configuration. Toyota likely could have fit them under the body if they used a more dense battery chemistry.
But I think the biggest issue is the fact that they only offer in hybrid. I don't want the hybrid in current form either way. To me it has no functional benefit because I'm not concerned about 0-60 times and it doesn't help on mountain passes or towing where I would want more power. Plus the base engine has more than enough power in the Sequoia without it. So I say make all the stupid packaging decisions you want - just offer it without the hybrid for people who don't want it!
The GH on the other hand is a more challenging issue. The base engine is pretty marginal for its size and it may need the extra power of the hybrid. Fortunately it has a better packaging. As does the Tacoma. I'd still opt to skip the hybrid until the battery capacity makes the weight penalty worth the trade. IMO a PHEV version with a 20kwh pack would be ideal. Then it's enough energy to have significant improvement in all the places I want the extra power.
Although I don't care about 0-60 much, I did find the GH hybrid max 0-60 pretty slow for what I expected based on the claimed power output. 6.8 seconds for 350hp isn't great. A Honda Pilot that's the same size does 0-60 in 6.3 with only a 285hp v6. If both have the same stated hp to acceleration relationship, the GH should be in the mid 5's. It's really slow for its stated power to weight ratio. Possibly that's just an issue with a pre-production model? Not sure.
Where did you see 6.8s quoted? I saw Toyota claiming 6.3s and the general thinking was that the actual instrumented tests may end up running faster than that.
Another article I remember reading that Toyota only expects a 5% take rate on the hybrid max powertrain. I agree the base engines (especially in hybrid form) seem like they will be rather anemic for a vehicle this size; but I guess we're neglecting the fact that a lot of people simply don't care, especially in this vehicle segment.
What I don't really understand now is what the value proposition of paying nearly $80K for a Sequoia is versus a $59K Grand Highlander for the majority of buyers out there. The only real advantage I see on the Sequoia is the towing capacity and to maybe a slight extent, off-road-ability (but realistically, how many Sequoia drivers are taking it on anything resembling a legitimate trail other than maybe someone with a Pro here and there?).
I have been surprised at the number of new Sequoias I've seen running around here in Arizona, but trucks are popular here and people still tend to have a decent amount of disposable income...
Jetboy
New member
I may have just misread it being 6.3 as 6.8. 6.3 is closer to what I think it should be. But still just matching the Pilot with a NA v6. Not exactly the same, but the Rav4 Prime is 5.4 with a claimed 302hp at 4300lbs (14.2lb/hp). The GH has 362 claimed hp at 4700lb (13.0 lb/hp). The GH should be mid-low 5's based on the numbers. It's not delivering the power very well.
However, I agree that the buyers probably don't care. My wife would give zero f's about 5.5 or 6.5 second 0-60. And I'm basically the same. As long as it can drive comfortably on the highway without constant downshifts on any slight grade and can pull a mountain pass with ease, that's good enough for this vehicle. But towing our travel trailer is a pretty big want if we're going to buy a full size or full size(ish) suv. And the GH isn't going to do that. Still a fine vehicle. But not really a Sequoia alternative for me.
The only sequoia for sale within 100 miles of me is listed at $96k for a capstone trim. I've never seen one on the road. But I'm living in Alaska right now so it's not a good gauge on sales. I know it was high on our list when initially released and then mostly removed from serious discussion when the rear cargo situation was revealed. Less cargo volume than a 4Runner is a non-starter.
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Wait for instrumented testing and I'll bet it ends up closer to 5.9s or so. I think Toyota just gave a conservative number (but maybe we'll be surprised). Could be a product of whatever tires they plan on equipping it with also perhaps.
Here in Arizona just within my immediate community I've seen at least 5 or 6 new Sequoias including a black TRD Pro and a Capstone. They do seem to be moving as fast as they're available right now and I haven't looked at how bad markup is on them. I'd only buy a Toyota through a strict MSRP dealer about 40 miles from me in Avondale (how I got my Pro at sticker in November 2019).
I hate to say it also, but I actually kind of like the 2025 VW Buzz for the US that just got revealed today. Wish it had a bit more range though. There are a lot of good day-trips you can do around here that require about a 250 to 300 mile round trip and EV charging infrastructure I imagine doesn't look very impressive in rural Arizona
.Edit: Hit autotrader for my own curiosity. $104K for a 2023 TRD Pro with 295 miles on it over in Scottsdale. OMFG!
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I hate to say it also, but I actually kind of like the 2025 VW Buzz for the US that just got revealed today. Wish it had a bit more range though. There are a lot of good day-trips you can do around here that require about a 250 to 300 mile round trip and EV charging infrastructure I imagine doesn't look very impressive in rural Arizona
It doesnt look like it has much cargo capacity behind the third row.
Jetboy
New member
Wait for instrumented testing and I'll bet it ends up closer to 5.9s or so. I think Toyota just gave a conservative number (but maybe we'll be surprised). Could be a product of whatever tires they plan on equipping it with also perhaps.
Here in Arizona just within my immediate community I've seen at least 5 or 6 new Sequoias including a black TRD Pro and a Capstone. They do seem to be moving as fast as they're available right now and I haven't looked at how bad markup is on them. I'd only buy a Toyota through a strict MSRP dealer about 40 miles from me in Avondale (how I got my Pro at sticker in November 2019).
I hate to say it also, but I actually kind of like the 2025 VW Buzz for the US that just got revealed today. Wish it had a bit more range though. There are a lot of good day-trips you can do around here that require about a 250 to 300 mile round trip and EV charging infrastructure I imagine doesn't look very impressive in rural Arizona
Edit: Hit autotrader for my own curiosity. $104K for a 2023 TRD Pro with 295 miles on it over in Scottsdale. OMFG!
I just can't see how there are that many buyers at $100k. I guess there are enough? I think inventory will catch up eventually.
Just looking around - I see that Ram 2500 now has around 450 days worth of inventory on dealer lots. Might be a great time for a power wagon. You can buy one well under MSRP. I see them listed at $59k new for a crew cab powerwagon with double lockers and an OEM winch. They don't even need a lift for 37's. 39's are pretty easy to fit and will get to a lot of places that are wide enough to fit a giant truck. As much as I'm a Toyota fan - there are plenty of good base vehicles for $10k under MSRP out there right now.
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I'm with you. At that money you are into vehicles like a V8 Defender 110 and not far off from a LX600 which in my opinion would be a much better use of dough if you have the budget.
Sometimes I wish I just saw cars as largely an appliance and I could go out and get whatever I could find a good deal on. The one time I did that recently was with my 2016 4Runner Trail Premium (black; had been a demo vehicle with about 1200 miles on it despite not being titled and was discounted below invoice accordingly). I liked that car but it was so vanilla that I ended up lusting after a Pro very quickly and finally pulled the trigger with the upgrades they did in the 2020.
I guess I don't want an anonymous vehicle though
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1.8kwh is quite a large capacity for a hybrid system especially for smaller vehicles like the RX500h! For reference, the full size F-150 Powerboost uses a 1.5kwh battery pack and users have noted how much better the truck does up mountain grades and general towing not at steady state speeds. The F-150 does have the advantage in that it has regenerative braking, so after going up a grade, it is able to recharge its batteries on the descent.
You are correct in that the NiMH do take up more physical space compared to a lithium-ion battery. Toyota says its for reliability reasons but I think its because they're just cheaper and easier to source.
As far as performance the new Hybrid Max in the Grand Highlander is quite good. The vehicle is bigger than the Pilot in every dimensions except width, weighs a 300+ lbs more, and is 0.6 seconds faster to 60 than the Pilot. The 0-60 times are pretty meaningless for a vehicle class like this but what will be important for most daily driving scenarios is being turbocharged/hybrid, the Hybrid Max makes peak torque by 2000-3000 rpm where as the V6 in the Pilot doesn't make peak torque until 5000rpm.
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TexasFunRunner
New member
Jetboy, I'm curious about Toyota's battery roadmap plans so I just did a quick search and I found a few mentions of Lithium-ion and even Solid-State Batteries, what have you heard about these developments as it relates to the TNGA-F models, Sequoia, Tacoma, 4Runner, GX and Land Cruiser?
Jetboy
New member
Its about the same size as the battery in the Rav4 hybrid. Given the difference in vehicle size/load, I'd call it relatively small. But it's really just a question of what you want it to do. If the goal is quicker 0-60, it's great. It'll run a quarter mile like a truck with 325hp. Probably two or maybe three times in a row before its depleted. If it's for towing or hauling - probably less useful. It will not tow or haul like a truck with 325hp. Much like the Rav4 hybrid - it's great for city driving. The hybrid battery isn't enough to pull up longer mountain passes or tow much, so the engine ends up being wound up pretty high because it's relatively small for the load once the battery is done. Upsize the battery and it could be useful for towing and hauling as well. It's not an apples to apples comparison with the Ford PB because NiMH have a lower useful capacity percentage of nameplate capacity. A 1.8kwh NiMH battery probably has about 1kwh of useful capacity. The lithium battery in the Ford PB is probably about the same. The lithium battery should last for about twice as many cycles, so it'll be interesting to see how they age. I think once Toyota has adequate capacity we'll see these all switch over to lithium or some other battery chemistry.
The inverter is one of the most valuable things about the hybrid IMO. And its' great Toyota added one in the Taco. It should be in the Tundra as well.
If the GH is only 6.3 vs 6.8 suggests that the GH isn't really delivering anywhere close to 365hp. The average applied power difference between the Pilot acceleration and GH acceleration is 23hp. 0-60 should be 5.5ish seconds. I suspect it's throttled for driveline torque limits. I think for that vehicle assuming it's not doing any heavy hauling or towing much, it'll be pretty great.
In the new Tacoma - the driveline should have no problem with the torque/power. So it may be pretty quick.
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Jetboy
New member
I don't know much. There are a few public plans to build significant battery capacity in conjunction with Panasonic. But it's a few years away at least. I expect that Toyota will catch up, but the open question for me is whether there is sufficient natural resources and if there will be a new technology that disrupts the entire battery industry before then.
The GX and LX will be BEV by 2030 according to Lexus. So they better get to work. This is likely the last generation of BOF ICE models. I'm not sure how much effort they want to put into redesigning with better batteries or just going forward to a full EV generation next. I'd love to see some PHEV BOF models, but I don't know if we'll ever see that from Toyota.
TexasFunRunner
New member
TexasFunRunner
New member
Lexus has dropped another GX teaser and a link to the June 8th youtube reveal.
GXandTX - GXandTX
Here is a link for a closeup I resized.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cl..._8d26dbb254da0cfe45ac347447165fd04555cc5b.jpg
GXandTX - GXandTX
Here is a link for a closeup I resized.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cl..._8d26dbb254da0cfe45ac347447165fd04555cc5b.jpg
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[MENTION=664438]TexasFunRunner[/MENTION], you're too quick! I hopped on to post the same teaser.
I'm really liking what I see with the new GX. They reallyyyy toned down the Lexus trademark grille or at least using painted body work to break it up. The windshield is near vertical and the entire body has a really square and boxy look to it that I really like.
It's purposefully been obfuscated but the approach and clearance looks to be actually decent? Given it competes in a luxury segment. I think I was too quick to dismiss the GX as pretty much all recent Lexus releases have been really ugly but this looks really promising!
I'm really liking what I see with the new GX. They reallyyyy toned down the Lexus trademark grille or at least using painted body work to break it up. The windshield is near vertical and the entire body has a really square and boxy look to it that I really like.
It's purposefully been obfuscated but the approach and clearance looks to be actually decent? Given it competes in a luxury segment. I think I was too quick to dismiss the GX as pretty much all recent Lexus releases have been really ugly but this looks really promising!
TexasFunRunner
New member
Yes, I'm shocked by the grill, in a good way, it is much better than the loud mouth 2023 GX grill, here is a comparison image I made.
Log in | Lexus Enthusiast
(@Administrator - please update the forum software to something modern for better image management.)
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I am really conflicted about what to purchase. That GX looks good so far, but the TX is probably better for our family.
The problem is, at least once a month, I need a truck - or at least that roll down window I have with the 4R.
Not just for house stuff, but I do woodworking on the side. That means I'm often dropping the window so 8'+ boards can stick out the back, and occasionally that means I need to throw some sheets of ply on the 4R's roof rack (its the only reason I've kept the LFD rack tbh).
I dont know how I would achieve that with a TX and I really don't want to have to store a trailer.
Our garage is only 20' deep so that rules out full-size trucks.
I looked at the GMC Canyon Denali - it may work, but I've not had a domestic car in 30 years.
I also looked for a used 70s or 80s truck and they either require $1000s in work or are in the high teens and low twenties.
I've become a soccer/snowboard dad instead of an offroad dad so I have no need for the GX but damn its looking good.
The problem is, at least once a month, I need a truck - or at least that roll down window I have with the 4R.
Not just for house stuff, but I do woodworking on the side. That means I'm often dropping the window so 8'+ boards can stick out the back, and occasionally that means I need to throw some sheets of ply on the 4R's roof rack (its the only reason I've kept the LFD rack tbh).
I dont know how I would achieve that with a TX and I really don't want to have to store a trailer.
Our garage is only 20' deep so that rules out full-size trucks.
I looked at the GMC Canyon Denali - it may work, but I've not had a domestic car in 30 years.
I also looked for a used 70s or 80s truck and they either require $1000s in work or are in the high teens and low twenties.
I've become a soccer/snowboard dad instead of an offroad dad so I have no need for the GX but damn its looking good.
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