Diesel 4Runner?

[eddiebx]

If diesel was as cost-prohibitive as it's being made out... why on earth are so many manufacturers bringing them to market here?

May I ask, who exactly are these "so many" manufacturers bringing them here, and how many of them are actually throwing it into something equivalent to a 4runner sized vehicle (as opposed to small cars, huge trucks, etc.)? A blanket statement of diesels being brought into the market in general might not help if we are talking about our 4runners specifically. I'm actually curious because I don't follow the all the latest automotive trends much

 

[crunchcity]

I'm sure some would buy a diesel option simply because they could, that's the only justification they need. Even if they didn't tow. :yo:

 

[M1911]

May I ask, who exactly are these "so many" manufacturers bringing them here, and how many of them are actually throwing it into something equivalent to a 4runner sized vehicle (as opposed to small cars, huge trucks, etc.)? A blanket statement of diesels being brought into the market in general might not help if we are talking about our 4runners specifically.

Jeep Grand Cherokee
Mercedes ML and GL
BMW X5
VW Touareg

 

[Jayhawk5G]

May I ask, who exactly are these "so many" manufacturers bringing them here, and how many of them are actually throwing it into something equivalent to a 4runner sized vehicle (as opposed to small cars, huge trucks, etc.)? A blanket statement of diesels being brought into the market in general might not help if we are talking about our 4runners specifically. I'm actually curious because I don't follow the all the latest automotive trends much

In the article I quoted in the original post it talks about Dodge offering the 3.0 Eco-Diesel they are offering in the Grand Cherokee in the 1500 Ram which is in the ballpark of our vehicles. Jeep has also confirmed that the Wrangler will be getting a diesel option within the next two years.

Chevrolet is getting ready to offer a diesel in the Chevy Cruze, and Mazda will be offering a Diesel version of the new Mazda 6 as competition for the VW Passat.

Pretty much any brand you can think of offers diesel engines across it's lineup in the rest of the world, with fuel economy standards set at 54.5 mpg by 2025 now would be the time to start developing diesel for our market which is seems like companies are starting to do...

 

[Jayhawk5G]

Jeep Grand Cherokee
Mercedes ML and GL
BMW X5
VW Touareg

You can add Porchse Cayenne and Audi Q5 to the list... they now have TDi options.

Audi is also bringing TDi to the A4, A6, A7, A8...

BMW is offering a diesel 7 series as well.

 

[Jayhawk5G]

You can justify it in your mind all you like but the real world of fact does not agree. Again, heavy towing vehicles or tiny little cars make the most sense for diesels, nothing else.
You keep bringing up Jeep and Dodge: Do you know why they (and GM to an extent) and the European manufacturers are trying to bring diesel to the table? They have no other option but diesel and they are trying to use what they have to improve their CAFE numbers. Read the whole article Corporate Average Fuel Economy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia to fully understand. The Asian manufacturers bet on something different 20 years ago and started developing hybrid drive tech in ADDITION to diesel. Dodge and those guys sat on their a$$ and now they are pushing the only thing they have. At least Ford built a little better turbo and engine management system to augment their fuel economy figures. Oh, the domestic and European guys OFFER hybrid drives but their tech is laughable compared to Prius tech. The Chevy Volt? C'mon, what's it sold so far?

Never forget the only motivation driving the OEM's for fuel economy is our beloved federal government. The consumer as a whole is very fickle: Gas prices go up they want small vehicles. Gas prices go down they want big vehicles, and will buy the least efficient vehicle they can afford to fuel as a collective. Not too many millionaires drive a Toyota Yaris or a Chevy Sonic even though they make sense, yet people on welfare will drive Chevy Tahoes because they somehow can afford the gas.

So the OEM's are motivated by the EPA because they have to pay a penalty if their numbers fall to a certain point. Dodge says "Let's offer a diesel, make it sound like this is the best thing since sliced bread and maybe somebody will fall for the bells and whistles and bullet points and buy the things. If they do, we can meet our CAFE standards." Toyota says "Let's expand our Prius hybrid line that makes sense and still offer vehicles such as the 4Runner to customers and we will still meet the CAFE numbers." Honda says "Let's keep building underpowered but efficient cars and we will be fine." Ford says "Alright! The Ecoboost marketing ploy was a success! Put it in everything!" And my favorite: GM says "We spent so much money on the Volt development to sell just a few vehicles we can't offer anything else at this time. Thank goodness the federal government still is the majority stock holder in our company. They won't do anything to mess that up!"

I'm ok having a difference of opinion about this, as that really is what it boils down too...

However I have provided a list of new diesels in everything from small SUV's, to comprable SUV's, to small cars, midsize cars, and BMW's flagship sedan... So to act like you know what vehicles a diesel should be in, or to tell me I'm justifying a trend in my head that I have provided proof to back is just silly...

 

[1engineer]

I'm ok having a difference of opinion about this, as that really is what it boils down too...

However I have provided a list of new diesels in everything from small SUV's, to comprable SUV's, to small cars, midsize cars, and BMW's flagship sedan... So to act like you know what vehicles a diesel should be in, or to tell me I'm justifying a trend in my head that I have provided proof to back is just silly...

Of course we have a difference in opinion on this - You love all things Jeep and I don't. You believe the hype and advertising from Jeep and Dodge - I don't. I realize what is the true motivator behind the "diesel explosion" from every manufacturer outside of Asia - apparently you don't. This is all they have to offer to consumers in the US in order to try to meet CAFE standards. Japan has many other arrows in their quiver besides a diesel engine for the US. Do you not remember the FACT I posted earlier? I repeat: In 2012 1.2% of new vehicles sold in the US were diesels. The statistic came from Scientific American.

You can keep posting pro diesel and ignore everything I said like it is a wisp of smoke in a breeze but the only person you are convincing is yourself. Look just a little bit deeper than TV commercials and Autoblog.

 

[Jayhawk5G]

Of course we have a difference in opinion on this - You love all things Jeep and I don't. You believe the hype and advertising from Jeep and Dodge - I don't. I realize what is the true motivator behind the "diesel explosion" from every manufacturer outside of Asia - apparently you don't. This is all they have to offer to consumers in the US in order to try to meet CAFE standards. Japan has many other arrows in their quiver besides a diesel engine for the US. Do you not remember the FACT I posted earlier? I repeat: In 2012 1.2% of new vehicles sold in the US were diesels. The statistic came from Scientific American.

You can keep posting pro diesel and ignore everything I said like it is a wisp of smoke in a breeze but the only person you are convincing is yourself. Look just a little bit deeper than TV commercials and Autoblog.

You are so funny. I love all things Jeep? I had a Grand Cherokee and got rid of it to buy a 4Runner :loco:

What hype and advertising are you referring too? I haven't seen any advertising from either Jeep or Ram about the Eco-Diesel... So Diesels being brought to the US because of their superior mpg's is the consipracy everyone knows about? I thought it was common knowledge that manufacturers are testing this route to meet the 2025 mpg standards? What arrows does Toyota have in it's quiver besides Hybrid which has it's own downsides? DI... thats it? I guess I don't understand your hatred of diesel?

I'm not ignoring what you are saying, it just doesn't make any sense.

 

[diverscale]

Am I the only one here to not BS?
Holy crap, I would have to be out of my MIND to even want or care about a diesel option in a 4,600 lb SUV. Why? So I can pay the $5,000 or so additional dollars to have it pay for itself in, oh, (doing math) hmm, let's see: 30% better efficiency so say 26 mpg. Gas is $3.60 a gallon and I drive 20K miles a year. Alright, I spend about $3,600.00 now a year on gas so diesel, EVEN if it were the same price as gas would be $2,769.00 a year for a grand total savings of, wait for it, wwwaaaiiittt for it, $831.00 a year. So it will take you SIX years and 120,000 miles JUST TO BREAK EVEN. Knowing diesel is higher priced than gasoline it would really take you around seven years to break even.

So efficiency and saving money is not the answer so what about torque? OK, let's look at that:

30% more torque will certainly help you pull a trailer up a hill but will not be of much use anywhere else. Don't agree with me? Alright, somebody go find a hill that right now the 4Runner will not climb in low range because it absolutely does not have enough horsepower or torque to climb. It just sits there. Yeah, I didn't think you could find that either. So, I will give you that.. it will be helpful pulling a trailer but it will not add anything to the capacity of 5K because unfortunately engine torque is not the limiting factor of trailer weight pulling fellas. Never mind that a 3/4 ton diesel pickup truck is built to pull about 4X the trailer weight as a 4Runner, for not a lot of money more.

How about longevity? Say a Toyota gas engine lasts 300K miles and a Toyota diesel lasts 500K miles. It is going to take you (using 20K/yr) 15 YEARS to go 300K and 25 YEARS to go 500K! A very few of you will keep your vehicle that long, and what is that vehicle worth then? I can answer that: Not much.

So, not really economical, not really adding any capacity, what is it then that 50 or so guys on a Toyota enthusiast forum is making a diesel look so inviting? Coolness factor?


Listen, I wrote this tongue-in-cheek because I am trying to understand why anyone would want a diesel in a bigger SUV. In 2012 about 1.2% of passenger vehicles bought in the US were diesel. Yes, that number is up a whopping 34% from 2011 so a lot more people are buying diesel, unfortunately 98.8% of the public is yawning. I am all for diesels in certain applications where torque and/or efficiency can make a real difference. It makes sense for: 18 wheelers, heavy duty pickups and really small, light cars. A Toyota 4Runner? Not so much. If they could offer a diesel option at the same price as gasoline then it would make sense. Unfortunately that will never happen.

Same thing I've been trying to say in my first post in this thread.

Even here in canada, with gas at approx 5.25$/gallon, lets look at it:

The new grand cherokee gets a 5MPG bump in average fuel economy from the V6 gas engine to the diesel engine (19 MPG combined VS 24.5 MPG combined) Lets round this to a 30% increase in fuel economy.

I do approx 19 000 miles a year, which gives 1000gallons vs 776gallons.

This translate to a 1100$/year saving in fuel, at 5.25$ a gallon for choosing a jeep grand cherokee diesel over gas engine.

That does not imply the higher diesel fuel costs, and higher maintenance costs.

IMO, it's not worth tradin-in your already acquired truck, since the upfront price of the diesel option (easily 6000$ in canada) and what you lose in the trade-in is pretty heavy.

I think it might be a good choice if you are already purchasing for a new vehicle and you are aware of the fiability of the new engine (which imply it's not its first few years of production)

EDIT: the increase in fuel economy from the gas to diesel engine might be over-inflated because of the issue of the 8-speed transmission (2014 diesel 24.5mpg) VS the 5speed transmission for the current gas version (2013 gas 19 mpg). The consumption difference you will get with both trucks having 8 speed transmission would probably be far less than what I calculated

 

[1engineer]

You are so funny. I love all things Jeep? I had a Grand Cherokee and got rid of it to buy a 4Runner :loco:

What hype and advertising are you referring too? I haven't seen any advertising from either Jeep or Ram about the Eco-Diesel... So Diesels being brought to the US because of their superior mpg's is the consipracy everyone knows about? I thought it was common knowledge that manufacturers are testing this route to meet the 2025 mpg standards? What arrows does Toyota have in it's quiver besides Hybrid which has it's own downsides? DI... thats it? I guess I don't understand your hatred of diesel?

I'm not ignoring what you are saying, it just doesn't make any sense.

There is no conspiracy nor do I hate diesel. As a matter of fact it's very simple and I stated it as such in my first post. American and European manufacturers are TRYING to get people to buy a diesel in the US in order to get them, the OEM, able to meet CAFE targets and not pay penalties imposed by our EPA. I say "trying" because the US public is just not buying. Again - 1.2% bought last year are diesel. I stated all the logic in the first post about why buying a diesel in a 4,600 lb SUV is nonsense. Jeep, Mercedes, Audi and others would like you to think otherwise - and buy their product. It makes absolutely no economic sense unless you just want to feel better about getting better gas mileage. If that were the case though you probably should buy an economy car. Japan has nifty cool hybrid, full electric and direct injection with turbo and, and, and, hydrogen from Honda. Yes, definitely more arrows.

If you think diesel is the right way to go then by all means go for it. I am just trying to show that just because OEM's offer it does not make it right. Remember their job is to get you to buy their vehicles - nothing else.

 

[Jayhawk5G]

There is no conspiracy nor do I hate diesel. As a matter of fact it's very simple and I stated it as such in my first post. American and European manufacturers are TRYING to get people to buy a diesel in the US in order to get them, the OEM, able to meet CAFE targets and not pay penalties imposed by our EPA. I say "trying" because the US public is just not buying. Again - 1.2% bought last year are diesel. I stated all the logic in the first post about why buying a diesel in a 4,600 lb SUV is nonsense. Jeep, Mercedes, Audi and others would like you to think otherwise - and buy their product. It makes absolutely no economic sense unless you just want to feel better about getting better gas mileage. If that were the case though you probably should buy an economy car. Japan has nifty cool hybrid, full electric and direct injection with turbo and, and, and, hydrogen from Honda. Yes, definitely more arrows.

If you think diesel is the right way to go then by all means go for it. I am just trying to show that just because OEM's offer it does not make it right. Remember their job is to get you to buy their vehicles - nothing else.

You keep bringing up last years sales percentages? The whole point of this post is that the number of vehicles that are coming out with diesel is about to double in the US... so more options means more potential sales.

You keep ranting that a diesel engine in a 4,600 lbs. SUV makes no sense, but you don't back that up with any facts. Though the diesel initially would cost more than a gas engine, and though diesel fuel is more expensive than gas... fact is that over the life of the vehicle you would still save money. Fact you would get better performance than a gas engine, while getting better gas mileage as well. Fact towing ability would increase for those who want to tow, but don't need a pickup truck. These are all factual benefits.

You then state that if you care about gas mileage then you need to get an economy car? Why limit yourself? I want a 4Runner and better gas mileage, AND more performance. I have mentioned in this thread DI and small displacement V6 with Turbo, not opposed to either. Hybrid has a lot of it's own problems, Full Electric has even more, and Hydrogen is more out there than diesel by a country mile. Diesel is certainly more tested over time than any of these.

I don't think diesel is right or wrong, it all depends on the person and use. I think the news that more disesl models are becoming available is a nice alternative with a lot of potential. However you can't argue that diesel is widely used the world over, and that if manufacturers didn't see a market for them, they wouldn't keep bringing more and more to the US.

 

[Jayhawk5G]

EDIT: the increase in fuel economy from the gas to diesel engine might be over-inflated because of the issue of the 8-speed transmission (2014 diesel 24.5mpg) VS the 5speed transmission for the current gas version (2013 gas 19 mpg). The consumption difference you will get with both trucks having 8 speed transmission would probably be far less than what I calculated

The Eight Speed transmission is standard across the board for the 2014 Grand Cherokee...

 

[Lolrax]

You keep bringing up last years sales percentages? The whole point of this post is that the number of vehicles that are coming out with diesel is about to double in the US... so more options means more potential sales.

You keep ranting that a diesel engine in a 4,600 lbs. SUV makes no sense, but you don't back that up with any facts. Though the diesel initially would cost more than a gas engine, and though diesel fuel is more expensive than gas... fact is that over the life of the vehicle you would still save money. Fact you would get better performance than a gas engine, while getting better gas mileage as well. Fact towing ability would increase for those who want to tow, but don't need a pickup truck. These are all factual benefits.

You then state that if you care about gas mileage then you need to get an economy car? Why limit yourself? I want a 4Runner and better gas mileage, AND more performance. I have mentioned in this thread DI and small displacement V6 with Turbo, not opposed to either. Hybrid has a lot of it's own problems, Full Electric has even more, and Hydrogen is more out there than diesel by a country mile. Diesel is certainly more tested over time than any of these.

I don't think diesel is right or wrong, it all depends on the person and use. I think the news that more disesl models are becoming available is a nice alternative with a lot of potential. However you can't argue that diesel is widely used the world over, and that if manufacturers didn't see a market for them, they wouldn't keep bringing more and more to the US.

This post basically summed up and ended the thread. I am not sure what else there is to say than this.

 

[eddiebx]

This post basically summed up and ended the thread. I am not sure what else there is to say than this.

When do you think Toyota will bring diesel to the United States? :behindsofa:

 

[4Run4YourLife]

Am I the only one here to not BS?
Holy crap, I would have to be out of my MIND to even want or care about a diesel option in a 4,600 lb SUV. Why? So I can pay the $5,000 or so additional dollars to have it pay for itself in, oh, (doing math) hmm, let's see: 30% better efficiency so say 26 mpg.

The Toyota Prado with the 3.0 turbo diesel reportedly has a combined fuel consumption of 8.5L/100km (~27.7mpg) while the 4.0 V6 gasser has a combined fuel consumption of 11.5L/100km (~20.5mpg). That is about a 35% increase in fuel economy.

Gas is $3.60 a gallon and I drive 20K miles a year. Alright, I spend about $3,600.00 now a year on gas so diesel, EVEN if it were the same price as gas would be $2,769.00 a year for a grand total savings of, wait for it, wwwaaaiiittt for it, $831.00 a year. So it will take you SIX years and 120,000 miles JUST TO BREAK EVEN. Knowing diesel is higher priced than gasoline it would really take you around seven years to break even.

Based on today's average fuel rates ($3.56/gal Gas & $3.98/gal Diesel) and based on an assumption of a person driving 20K miles per year (I drive over 30K), the average savings in fuel costs would be about $600 (the savings would be $900 for my driving habits). It would take a little over 8 years to break even (or about 5.5 years for my driving habits). You would also presumably have a higher resale value for a diesel vs gas 4runner. I would more than break even with a diesel option.

So efficiency and saving money is not the answer so what about torque? OK, let's look at that:

30% more torque will certainly help you pull a trailer up a hill but will not be of much use anywhere else. Don't agree with me? Alright, somebody go find a hill that right now the 4Runner will not climb in low range because it absolutely does not have enough horsepower or torque to climb. It just sits there. Yeah, I didn't think you could find that either. So, I will give you that.. it will be helpful pulling a trailer but it will not add anything to the capacity of 5K because unfortunately engine torque is not the limiting factor of trailer weight pulling fellas. Never mind that a 3/4 ton diesel pickup truck is built to pull about 4X the trailer weight as a 4Runner, for not a lot of money more.

The 3.0 turbo diesel produces a max torque @ 1600rpm. The 4.0 gasser produces a max torque @ 4400rpm. All things being equal, I would prefer the additional torque. Like you said "more torque will certainly help you pull a trailer up a hill". Well, that is precisely why I would prefer more torque. Being able to pull 5,000 pounds more efficiently has value. Not much else to say here really.

How about longevity? Say a Toyota gas engine lasts 300K miles and a Toyota diesel lasts 500K miles. It is going to take you (using 20K/yr) 15 YEARS to go 300K and 25 YEARS to go 500K! A very few of you will keep your vehicle that long, and what is that vehicle worth then? I can answer that: Not much.

This is confusing. Are you saying an engine lasting 67% longer isn't valuable? Oh, you mean that a vehicle that lasts a really long time is undesirable (sarcasm). Wait though, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen 4runners are still wildly popular and have held their value extremely well. If you were buying a used vehicle with 150,000 miles, would you prefer one that is expected to last another 150k or 350k miles? Don't answer that.

So, not really economical, not really adding any capacity, what is it then that 50 or so guys on a Toyota enthusiast forum is making a diesel look so inviting? Coolness factor?

In many cases it is economical (longevity, high annual mileage, resale, towing, etc.) If it tows 5,000lbs more effectively and efficiently, then it is a winner for many. The popularity of the Prado worldwide is undeniable. And personally, I have never thought of diesels as cool.:tape:


Listen, I wrote this tongue-in-cheek because I am trying to understand why anyone would want a diesel in a bigger SUV. In 2012 about 1.2% of passenger vehicles bought in the US were diesel. Yes, that number is up a whopping 34% from 2011 so a lot more people are buying diesel, unfortunately 98.8% of the public is yawning. I am all for diesels in certain applications where torque and/or efficiency can make a real difference. It makes sense for: 18 wheelers, heavy duty pickups and really small, light cars. A Toyota 4Runner? Not so much. If they could offer a diesel option at the same price as gasoline then it would make sense. Unfortunately that will never happen.

I have said all of the above with no hope of a diesel 4runner coming to the US market anytime soon, if ever.:flypig: I just wanted to point out that your assessment is not "one-size-fits-all". Our family only has one vehicle because my drives a company, so a vehicle with a longer lifespan, improved towing experience, improved fuel economy would be a blessing. If that vehicle could be my beloved 4runner? :reddance:

See bold responses above.

 

[DannyLlama]

So, how about them Lakers? eep:

 

[M1911]

4.6 will happen if it gets, on paper, better mpg than the 4.0, which is entirely possible with DI and a six speed. Despite the two extra pots, the V8 won't have to work as hard as the six to achieve or maintain the same momentum, a bit like the M3 race against the Prius, where the M3 used less fuel. (absurdly extreme example.)

I think a more likely scenario would be improvements to the 4.0 and a 6, 7, or 8 speed transmission.

 

[diverscale]

The Eight Speed transmission is standard across the board for the 2014 Grand Cherokee...

I am comparing it to a 5 speed transmission 2013 gas model that will eventually get better fuel economy with the 8 speed in 2014, which will reduce the cost difference between gas and diesel engine.

 

[Jayhawk5G]

I am comparing it to a 5 speed transmission 2013 gas model that will eventually get better fuel economy with the 8 speed in 2014, which will reduce the cost difference between gas and diesel engine.

Yeah for 2014 all Grand Cherokees get the 8-speed transmission V6, V8, and Diesel V6. The Diesel V6 depending on RWD of 4x4 can attain up to 30 mpg, while the V6 with same 8-speed maxes at 25 mpg in RWD.

 

[eddiebx]

:focus:

First off, I am far from being up to date or knowledgeable on this topic like all of you guys, so please correct me where I am wrong.

So, what I gather is that (based on the list of manufacturers mentioned earlier) the majority offering extensive diesel options in their US lineup are European brands? Now aren't the Europeans generally much more into consumer diesel vehicles versus the US? Which would mean that these brands can possibly bring diesel technology to the US at a much lower cost than say...Toyota?

Now turning to Toyota's current line up, I think it would be fair to say that they are pretty decent at hybrid technology?

Which leads me to my point...if one argues the CAFE position, wouldn't it make more financial sense that Toyota pursue a hybrid option as opposed to a diesel option?

After all, Toyota is here to first make a profit, and then appease to the masses if/when they can. So, I am going to go out on a limp here and say that I doubt Toyota really cares about a bunch of 4runner enthusiasts

I do understand that other manufacturers are now trying to introduce diesel into their line up as well, but they also probably don't have a successful hybrid technology going for them currently. Thus, from a cost stand point, it really wouldn't matter if they now invest in diesel or any other alternatives. But for Toyota, hybrid seems to be the obvious choice over diesel (at least for most of their consumer grade lineup).