Sean K.
New member
So there is room for the spare under the bed and the tier rods look like they could use some love
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Wow...GM never learns. This thing will break 50 feet into its first serious trail.
Finally, a real competitor in 2017
- Thread starter wfo9
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Wow...GM never learns. This thing will break 50 feet into its first serious trail.
Sean K.
New member
Honestly, this is just GM's rehash of the H3 Alpha....sans the V8 and 4:1 tcase...and look where that ended up. That wasn't a game changer as it just followed Jeep's Rubicon package.
Anyone have a spec for the tcase low range on this new ZR2? I didn't see a mention of a 4:1....but that doesn't mean they didn't put it in.
Anyone have a spec for the tcase low range on this new ZR2? I didn't see a mention of a 4:1....but that doesn't mean they didn't put it in.
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bob3dsf
New member
No way. That's too close to a repair shop or the dealer. It'll hold until you're a couple miles in, you'll be all happy with a 4x4 chub.... then it'll go.
There was a comment earlier about "bro-dozers," that had me rolling, thanks for that! This will be good for some serious gas station hangouts, football practice, and for parking on the side of the highway to go hunting... oops, I mean ambushing..., but only if you leave your spare home, evidently.
Overland with it?! The vacant lot next door to Walmart doesn't count, even though you're driving over some land. I agree that you shouldn't go alone, bring all your tools, and stay in cell coverage....
On second thought, the bro-dozer segment might not bee too into it as it's only a mid-size, but maybe you can "roll coal" with that diesel....
Sean K.
New member
I dunno
....seen it happen in person at the gatekeeper obstacle on the John Bull Trail in SoCal. Not even a hard trail.
BlackWorksInc
New member
There was an article that had said the vehicle was 3.5" wider than stock; which suddenly piqued my interest (possible mid/long travel set-up from the factory?), turns out the body is 3.5" wider.
Those tie rods look about the same diameter as the 4th & 5th gens at first glance, but they are far longer than either 4Runner. Not super confident in them to be honest, though I will admit my tie-rods on my 35" equipped 4th gen suffered plenty a beating, even when I hit a log at 30mph right in the tire; the tie rod was fine. So, hard to say there.
I do appreciate the effort to make a more off-road oriented model and hopefully it will lend more pressure to other brands to compete as well. But as I mentioned before the first article I read made it sound like it was a very custom suspension, unfortunately it seems more inline with a Tacoma TRD Pro in terms of just bolt on stuff.
As for the Tacoma's Frame, it's actually been updated twice in the over ten years it's been on market. First from a J120 platform to a J150 Platform in 2010 and now to a modified (supposedly completely reworked, although still dimensionally similar) J150 platform that I don't know what they are calling it.
The same thing with the 4th & 5th gens, they have similar frames (almost dimensionally the same) but the structure has supposedly been reworked over the years when they switched to the J150 platform.
Those tie rods look about the same diameter as the 4th & 5th gens at first glance, but they are far longer than either 4Runner. Not super confident in them to be honest, though I will admit my tie-rods on my 35" equipped 4th gen suffered plenty a beating, even when I hit a log at 30mph right in the tire; the tie rod was fine. So, hard to say there.
I do appreciate the effort to make a more off-road oriented model and hopefully it will lend more pressure to other brands to compete as well. But as I mentioned before the first article I read made it sound like it was a very custom suspension, unfortunately it seems more inline with a Tacoma TRD Pro in terms of just bolt on stuff.
As for the Tacoma's Frame, it's actually been updated twice in the over ten years it's been on market. First from a J120 platform to a J150 Platform in 2010 and now to a modified (supposedly completely reworked, although still dimensionally similar) J150 platform that I don't know what they are calling it.
The same thing with the 4th & 5th gens, they have similar frames (almost dimensionally the same) but the structure has supposedly been reworked over the years when they switched to the J150 platform.
wfo9
New member
Both the body and the track width are 3.5 inches wider than stock. So yes, it is basically a mid travel setup from the factory.. The shocks are quite amazing technology. I hope something similar makes it to the aftermarket.
Some of the other comments in this thread (the one about it only being good for overlanding to walmart...) are borderline retarded... These trucks will be ideal for over-landing and all around off-roading. The range with the diesel is amazing at 30mpg. And you can actually tune this truck (unlike Toyotas). You can buy one today and make an additional 50hp, 80tq with no issue (I love america LOL)
I don't know where you people get your info from. I've owned both chevy and Toyota trucks starting in 1994. The chevy stuff has been about as good overall, maybe a notch below in quality, but nothing substantial. None of them have let me down, and the chevy stuff simply blows the doors off of Toyota in terms of performance. Especially right now. The tundra is almost laughable when you compare them side by side in terms of efficiency.
Now Chevy has made some junk (like the previous Colorado)... but the gap in quality has closed to almost nil and the new Tacoma is a big mistake and just proves where Toyota is headed... They have 0 passion at this point and can only produce appearance packages for the enthusiast market. I personally think the party is over, but time will tell. I love the older Toyotas and even the current and recent FJs, Tacomas, and 4Runners are great, but I don't plan to ever buy another new Toyota unless something drastic changes and the direction changes. FYI, I currently own 3 Toyotas (89 pickup, 2008 FJ, 2011 4runner). I'm obviously a Toyota fan. (but I also have 3 chevy products).
If Toyota wakes up or does something different than I'm expecting I'll be very surprised. They just seemed to have lost it IMHO. Its's either that... or the other brands have just been building so many exciting cars and trucks that Toyota appears to be standing still in terms of the enthusiast market ..
I predicted a dud with the Tacoma and I'm predicting it for the next 4Runner. Time will tell. I hope to be pleasantly surprised and I hope some competition in the market will wake them up.
If you are listening Toyota... Wake up and give us something like the zr2 not your BS appearance packages.
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Vinsil
New member
While I mostly agree with you on terms of quality and of course, performance from the big three is blowing Toyota out of the water....
Toyota never really had "serious" factory packages like the new zr2. However, as with most things from the factory....this thing will come in a cool 10k or more than a Tacoma (and I'm not a fan of the new taco) but this where Toyota does accel. Aftermarket support. You've built your rig into what you want and need, with a huge aftermarket to support that. GM never really has had that and most...will not buy the factory zr2, Raptor or even the TRD Pro models. It gives people options, yes.
But most will buy a mid or lower level trim and build it to their needs. I skipped a Pro as I knew I didn't need the suspension, wheels or tires as I'd change it myself...for less money and better parts.
The zr2 does have some great tech but that is one thing Toyota always has done well.....simple and reliable vehicles. Tech is not their strong point...never has been at least until it is sorted out pretty good.
BTW I have owned and currently own a Ram with a tuned and deleted Cummins. I need it for my hobbies and Toyota doesn't offer anything close to it. So I'm not biased or bashing domestic products at all....but I also would not buy a zr2 for MY own needs and wants.
Toyota never really had "serious" factory packages like the new zr2. However, as with most things from the factory....this thing will come in a cool 10k or more than a Tacoma (and I'm not a fan of the new taco) but this where Toyota does accel. Aftermarket support. You've built your rig into what you want and need, with a huge aftermarket to support that. GM never really has had that and most...will not buy the factory zr2, Raptor or even the TRD Pro models. It gives people options, yes.
But most will buy a mid or lower level trim and build it to their needs. I skipped a Pro as I knew I didn't need the suspension, wheels or tires as I'd change it myself...for less money and better parts.
The zr2 does have some great tech but that is one thing Toyota always has done well.....simple and reliable vehicles. Tech is not their strong point...never has been at least until it is sorted out pretty good.
BTW I have owned and currently own a Ram with a tuned and deleted Cummins. I need it for my hobbies and Toyota doesn't offer anything close to it. So I'm not biased or bashing domestic products at all....but I also would not buy a zr2 for MY own needs and wants.
wfo9
New member
I agree with most of the thrust of what you are saying but have to counter a few things.
There is nothing special about aftermarket support for Toyota. In fact. it is limited to boltons, since Toyota is so closed and non performance oriented.
The aftermarket parts will follow for the zr2... Just like the Raptor and any other enthusiast oriented vehicle (follow the money..). The nice thing about the zr2 is that it is targeted as a do everything off-roader.. not boxed in like the Raptor.... There is already stuff out there for the standard Colorado/Canyon. (see pic below)
The price of the zr2 should line right up with the TRD pro Tacoma. Now the diesel option would probably kick it up 4-5k...
As far as Toyotas being simple.... I wish. Those days are long gone. That is my biggest complaint actually. You can't do anything extreme with them because of the closed system. Want to SAS and maintain electronics... be prepared to build your own electronic converter boxes and hope for the best... Want more power... 0 options....
None of these limits should be in place with a Chevrolet. You should see a ton of stuff coming out for them.. Ls1 swaps will most likely be a common thing a few years down the road (because that is the way Chevrolet guys think). It's a different level of insanity.
I'm not saying it is great.. BTW. Just that it has lots of potential and may very well be a great truck out of the box. I just know it is much better than 0 competition for the Tacoma. We can see what that yielded.
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Vinsil
New member
Good points. I have a few questions and counter points.
Aftermarket support limited to bolt ons? What more are you seeking that you can get with a GM or other domestic platform (besides tuning a diesel for power) offer? Sure a SAS requires more than it used to when I did mine on my '86 Runner but everyone has electric t-cases and it offers obstacles with abs, traction control, etc....this isn't exclusively a Toyota issue.
Sure more power is in a swap and those are not cheap or in the possibility or want for a 40k truck. So a diesel it is....but as a guy who deleted and tuned his diesel no more warranty so if your going to hack it up....lol!
The zr2 is going to cost more than the TRD pro. I built a '17 crew cab, short box 4x4 with a duramax and it was 40,500 before anything else was added. This forced me into a z71 off-road package which is just appearance upgrades similar to the a pro....that zr2 will be 6-8k more. Yikes. Now I get the diesel up charge and I'd go that way myself....but it will be 50k.
I'm not against it it at all but I'm not sold either as a factory package. But...I thin you and I are a bit different than most and this will be a foood seller and...as you said, make Toyota wake up and step up! I hope it does!
Srt4runner
New member
Sean K.
New member
Again, the H3 Alpha had dual lockers and the 4:1 tcase and a V8....and they didn't sell like crazy.
The reason the Jeep did was b/c there is very little you need to add to a Jeep Rubicon package to make it capable of running serious trails. The cost of the f/r D44 axles, sway bar disconnnects, lockers f/r and 4:1 tcase would be far exceeded by someone adding them on after purchase. Armor, tires/wheels and possibly a lift is really all that you need to add on. That, coupled with brand recognition/loyalty, drove sales.
To be honest, the Jeep Rubicon is in a class by itself. You can build any vehicle make/model to be very competent offroad....the question is: how much custom fabrication is it going to take and what's it going to cost? If you're just looking to buy something off the showroom floor, throw less than 10 grand at it in aftermarket parts and be able to wheel some pretty hard trails.....the Jeep Rubicon beats everything else out there.
wfo9
New member
Totally agree on the Rubicon. They are a crazy good off-road platform with just a few cheap upgrades... but the overall versatility sucks. They also just bore me to tears for some reason. Maybe it is because there are simply so many of them... I can't put my finger on why I just can't get excited about one.
I don't see the zr2 as a wrangler competitor at all. I see it in the space of the Tacoma and 4runner. Much more of an overland do everything utility vehicle.
As far as the h3 went.. If memory serves me correctly... it had the dual lockers right at the end 08 when the economy was tanking and nothing was selling...gas prices had SUVs and trucks frozen on the lot. Also, don't think the alpha versions ever had a 4:1 tcase, pretty sure that was reserved for the 5cyl motor. I tried to find an alpha with lockers for a while, but never could find one...They must have produced a few hundred at most. The h3 was cool and I wish they would bring it back on this new platform which is much better than the first gen.
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LandCruiser
New member
I think it's dumb that GM dumped the 4x4 brand completely--may have been a condition of Dear Leader's bailout plan?
They could have kept producing a less garish off roader at minimal development cost, and now all they're left is lifted bro-truck versions of their pickups.
They could have kept producing a less garish off roader at minimal development cost, and now all they're left is lifted bro-truck versions of their pickups.
wfo9
New member
Hummer was doomed when every celebrity and athlete started driving them.. then you started seeing them with 24" rims and rubber band tires. They became the poster child for excess and the country turned against the brand when oil prices went through the roof and the economy tanked. Sales were crazy for them at one point, but it quickly turned into an impossible market to be profitable in. There was really no choice but to cut it out when the financial crises hit.
There has been rumors of GMC coming out with a similar pure off-road oriented SUV/Wrangler competitor. I sort of doubt it, but I think people have realized there is a revival in the pure 4x4 market. Not sure how long that will last though..
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Sean K.
New member
You had to have the "adventure" package in the Alpha to get the 4:1.
H3 Differences between H3 Alpha, Adventure, and Lux?
Ya, Jeeps are super common.....even highly modded ones are run of the mill.
The Rubicon isn't a direct competitor to the Tacoma PRO or this new ZR2....but they are all 4wds and out of the bunch, the Jeep is the most capable out of the box and the least expensive to make "trail ready" for harder trails.
It all depends on what you're doing though.....in overlanding, the number one priority isn't capability as most overlanding is just dirt roads combined with the occasional mild obstacle or mud hole. In those instances, RELIABILITY is key since you are in the middle of nowhere (generally) and a break down can be catastrophic. In that respect, the Toyota is likely the best bet based on quality ratings and the like. Trail running is a different animal altogether.
Agreed that the timing of Hummer's demise was a big, no huge, part of why they didn't sell more....but while I know a guy with an Alpha that he loves....no one else is beating down the doors of Alpha owners trying to buy the rig off them. There's very little aftermarket support and the platform just wasn't all that durable....and from the looks of things, GM didn't learn a thing about the biggest weak link on their last foray into this niche segment.
LandCruiser
New member
I bet if they threw some mildly redesigned bodywork on, redid the front end to resemble the pickups, and renamed it the Tahoe Desert Sport Z71.14 Canyon Runner El Dorado Camino LS1 they could have kept the H3 alive as a sleeper off road model.
GM was too obsessed with the Hummer lifestyle brand to realize they finally had something decent with the H3 and H3T and decided to kill the vehicles and the brand.
bob3dsf
New member
Oh come on.... I hope I didn't hurt any feelings with my hyperbolic sarcasm....
I guess for now there's a difference in experience with GM, some have fine experiences, some get the lemons. The reputation that's been earned is for questionable reliability. I have several friends with new GM trucks who have had them sit in the dealer's service bay for far too long for a new truck, or any vehicle for that matter (transmission issues, I think). The domestics enjoy a long history of brand loyalty based on "American pride," whatever that is. My wife's family are "ford people" because.... well who know exactly why, they just always bought them from probably back when Henry Ford was still alive and kicking.
I had an F150 that was running like a top (sold it due to car seat space requirements), but after my 100k service I was just waiting for that Triton motor to throw a plug. I got lucky and it didn't happen but I had 3 friends with the same motor have to have their plug threads fixed along with other issues related to that. Another co-worker had an F250 Diesel in to the dealer to have the cab taken off the thing 4 times in the space of 2 years to work on several issues. I forget which motor it was, but the 6.0, 6.4, and 7.3 powerstrokes were famous for their disastrous performance.
My point is that for the amount of money trucks (and SUV's) go for, a demonstrated culture of reliability at the company level is huge. Maybe GM is turning a corner. Again, I think they have earned their reputation for iffy QA...
Here's a question, what is their warranty on this thing? If you take it off road and overland it, or hit some technical trails, and break some expensive things, will they leave you high and dry? Will a claim be denied based on "Extreme duty" beyond design parameters... or whatever the terminology is? Because, their marketing department is stating, and implying, a whole lot. I think many of us have experienced headaches for warranty work for things that were spelled out as covered in the literature. I you buy a rig and trick it out, you do it with the knowledge that you are voiding warranty items. In the case of Toyota, they have a reputation of engineering and capability that provides a measure of relief that your transfer case won't explode when you shift, or your gears won't break a tooth, etc... I hope that makes sense. I will say, however, that it is a nice looking truck. Maybe it doesn't end there.
nb rob
New member
the spool valve suspension is pretty cool. Did a bit of digging around
The 2017 Chevy Colorado ZR2 has a supercar suspension. Here's how it works - Autoblog
The 2017 Chevy Colorado ZR2 has a supercar suspension. Here's how it works - Autoblog
wfo9
New member
A video with a bit more info... on the zr2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbCFsX7SBbk
As far as crawl ratio goes.
It looks like the 8 speed trans has 4.62:1 ratio in 1st (this will only be in the v6)
Rear diff should be a 4.10
Transfer case should be 2.7:1 (this is unverified but all I could find)
So crawl ratio would be ~50:1
For comparison.
Current 4Runner 34:1
Basic Wrangler 39:1
Rubicon Wrangler 73:1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbCFsX7SBbk
As far as crawl ratio goes.
It looks like the 8 speed trans has 4.62:1 ratio in 1st (this will only be in the v6)
Rear diff should be a 4.10
Transfer case should be 2.7:1 (this is unverified but all I could find)
So crawl ratio would be ~50:1
For comparison.
Current 4Runner 34:1
Basic Wrangler 39:1
Rubicon Wrangler 73:1
