hah, bumhug. things I don't like

[Canazes9]

David

The shortest turning radius is allowed by the part time tcase that's in 2wd. Not a full time case that doesn't have the center diff locked.

I'm not sure where you're getting your reliability resources from. But let me state some facts. These are general facts about t-cases full time and part time.

Most part time tcases are chain driven. There are some exceptions that are gear driven. In fact, there are conversions designed to go from chain to gear drive specifically for the off road market. Some would say they are the most desired and reliable. The chain or gear gives the tcase a locked position. Your front and rear driveshaft will have equal power.

One of the most sought after transfer cases in the off road community is the Atlas or Atlas 2. These are gear driven.

Most full time/awd tcases require a viscous coupler. This allows power to transfer to the front or rear driveshaft as required. The viscous coupler is similar to what a limited slip is in a differential. The locking feature is what is desired for the viscous coupler to engage the front and rear driveshaft completely, similar to a part time tcase.

I don't know where you're seeing any failure rate for ANY Toyota tcase. The only part that fails consistently (and that's usually after 100k+ miles) is the electronic actuator that engages 4wd/hi/lo. It's been a long time since I've crawled under a lever actuated tcase such as a 2010-2013 TE or SR5, but I don't believe these had them. I would love for someone to go under and snap a pic of the back of their tcase. And if I'm wrong, I apologize. But, I would much rather have a manual actuated tcase than the current one I have in my LE. It's just one more thing to break/leak....100k miles from now.

The reference to turning radius is being able to drive in 4wd w/ the center diff unlocked, vs riding in a 4wd w/ a transfer case w/ 4wd activated.

Perhaps you missed the part where I discussed how strong and durable the transfer cases on Toyota's 4Runner were?

Perhaps you missed this "Again, this is a largely theoretical discussion - the differences are minor and of little consequence in the vast majority of uses."

Viscous Coupler? I don't know where YOU are getting your information from but Toyota doesn't use a viscous coupler on their full time 4wd system in the 4Runner, they use a Locking Torsen T-3 Center differential that locks with an electronic actuator that pushes a fork forward that is connected to a sleeve with splines on it. This sleeves connects the 2 parts of the planetry gear (center diff) together that connect the front and rear drive shafts together.

Here are your Toyota transfer case failures:

Let me google that for you

Perhaps you would like to compare that to what happens when you perform the same search for Toyota Torsen Center Differential Failures?

Let me google that for you

If I had a choice to have a manually operated transfer case I would prefer that as well. It's not an option for the 4Runner. Again, I DON"T think the Toyota Transfer Case is weak, I don't think its prone to failure. I own 3 of them currently with a combined total of well over 250,000 miles and no failures in any of them. @LandCruiser was referencing an earlier discussion we had on the subject in his post and I was acknowledging that after looking into it there is a minor, difference in reliability w/ the center diff vs the transfer case. And again, a manually operated center locking differential would be preferrable if it was an option, but its not.

@DannyLlama was asking me what I was referring to and I answered him. If this causes some major distress feel free to post up your information that shows I have reached the wrong conclusions and I'll read it. I heavily exercised my google fu and the consensus seems to be for those vehicles that spend 100's of thousands of miles in 4wd, a locking Torsen Center Differential is (slightly) preferable to a part time transfer case. For the typical consumer there is no appreciable difference (I think I said that already in my post to Danny...)

David

 

[Quentin]

How many of those part time transfer case failures were due to misuse, though? There is more opportunity to destroy a part time transfer case by using it on dry surfaces where most people aren't inclined to lock the center diff on a full time 4WD on dry surfaces. When uses correctly, I believe that the part time transfer case is very robust.

For the person asking above, the part time transfer case with a lever uses the fork to engage the T/C. There is a solenoid up front that locks the front axles to the prop shaft instead of them freewheel. This is basically the replacement for the old method of having to get out and lock the hubs in when you shifted to 4WD. The full time 4WD uses a solenoid, I believe, to lock the center diff and to engage low range. It shouldn't have the solenoid up front to lock the front axles to the front prop shaft. So, full time 4WD gets you an extra solenoid count over part time. I personally like part time. I drive in 2WD almost all of the time and it has to be particularly nasty for me to go to 4WD. It is a heavy vehicle that has good traction and a good stability and traction control system. I'd rather get myself a little stuck in 2WD and have the option of going to 4H and eventually 4L than getting stuck in 4WD and only having 4HL or 4LL as my steps forward. In theory (lol), my front 2 tires shouldn't be rutted out when I get stuck in 2WD and I can get my head on straight and get myself out of trouble by going to 4H.

 

[Ducmonsta]

David,

I'm sorry if my typed words come out as an attack. I surely did not want to come across that way. My reply is a general statement for MOST tcases.

The reference to turning radius is being able to drive in 4wd w/ the center diff unlocked, vs riding in a 4wd w/ a transfer case w/ 4wd activated.
David

I did not see that specification in your previous post. I apologize for misinterpreting that.

Perhaps you missed the part where I discussed how strong and durable the transfer cases on Toyota's 4Runner were?

Perhaps you missed this "Again, this is a largely theoretical discussion - the differences are minor and of little consequence in the vast majority of uses."

I think we both agree on these points. And, as I stated before, I never saw or read the thread that was previously discussed.

Viscous Coupler? I don't know where YOU are getting your information from but Toyota doesn't use a viscous coupler on their full time 4wd system in the 4Runner, they use a Locking Torsen T-3 Center differential that locks with an electronic actuator that pushes a fork forward that is connected to a sleeve with splines on it. This sleeves connects the 2 parts of the planetry gear (center diff) together that connect the front and rear drive shafts together.

I know it's not a viscous coupler. You are correct, I should have used the term "limited slip" instead of something specific like a viscous coupler. Toyota's torsen is the same concept. Both units act as a limited slip.

Here are your Toyota transfer case failures:

Let me google that for you

Perhaps you would like to compare that to what happens when you perform the same search for Toyota Torsen Center Differential Failures?

Let me google that for you

I don't know if my google searches come up different than yours, but for your first link, the first page hits have failures for the twin stick conversions. There was one from an FJ cruiser forum. I read through that, and no offense to FJ owners, but that particular owner wasn't the brightest crayon in the box. It sounded as if he never completely disengaged the lever. Or something in the center console was pushing up against the lever causing the fork to ride against gears slightly. That particular post only had 4 responses.

And as far as your second, politely placed google search... well, if you search for a specific Torsen failure, you probably won't come up with much.

However, if you search for Toyota transfer case leak, you'll find almost all links pointing towards the electronic actuator used in ALL Torsen style Toyota transfer cases. Well, I'm pretty sure its all of them. That's all that my experience has shown me. To the best of my knowledge, these Torsen transfer cases were only used on AWD models mainly because of the AWD option.

Until someone posts a pic of the back of their transfer case on a 2010-2013 SR5 or Trail, I won't know if it's used in the lever actuated cases. I know in the 2014s, the SR5 is know an electronic knob. Which, under my assumption, means they now have the electronic actuator that's used on the LE.

If I had a choice to have a manually operated transfer case I would prefer that as well. It's not an option for the 4Runner. Again, I DON"T think the Toyota Transfer Case is weak, I don't think its prone to failure. I own 3 of them currently with a combined total of well over 250,000 miles and no failures in any of them.

We are on the same page when it comes to the quality of components.

@LandCruiser was referencing an earlier discussion we had on the subject in his post and I was acknowledging that after looking into it there is a minor, difference in reliability w/ the center diff vs the transfer case. And again, a manually operated center locking differential would be preferrable if it was an option, but its not.

This statement leads me to believe that you think the center diff is a completely different type of unit than a transfer case. I don't know what a manually locking center diff would be. That, to me, is a transfer case.

I think of a transfer case or gear box (as euros would call them) as a live axle.
Let me use a rear solid axle, dana 44 as an example. If it were an open diff, meaning no limited slip or locker, power would be driven to the wheel with no resistance. Let's pretend, for arguments sake, that is your part time tcase in 2wd.

Now you engage 4wd in your tcase. In the dana 44, you've just engaged the locker. Power is now given to both driveshafts. In the dana 44, both axle shafts have equal power.

A Torsen style tcase is a limited slip. The dana 44 is now equipped with a limited slip. Power is sent to both axle shafts. Usually there is a split of power in limited slips. For example there may be a 40/60 split. The AWD Torsen tcase now gets that split of power to the front and rear driveshafts. Hence, the AWD.

Now we lock this Torsen tcase. Or engage the locker in the dana 44. Both driveshafts have equal power in the tcase. Or both axle shafts have equal power in the dana 44.

Please don't take my explanation of tcases as to belittle you. I am explaining this for others that may read your statement as I did.

And if I could have bought my LE with a manual tcase (as the 2010-2013 SR5 and TE), I would have. The best benefit of this, to me, would have been fuel economy......

And donuts in the parking lot!!!

 

[limamike]

David,

I'm sorry if my typed words come out as an attack. I surely did not want to come across that way. My reply is a general statement for MOST tcases.



I did not see that specification in your previous post. I apologize for misinterpreting that.



I think we both agree on these points. And, as I stated before, I never saw or read the thread that was previously discussed.



I know it's not a viscous coupler. You are correct, I should have used the term "limited slip" instead of something specific like a viscous coupler. Toyota's torsen is the same concept. Both units act as a limited slip.



I don't know if my google searches come up different than yours, but for your first link, the first page hits have failures for the twin stick conversions. There was one from an FJ cruiser forum. I read through that, and no offense to FJ owners, but that particular owner wasn't the brightest crayon in the box. It sounded as if he never completely disengaged the lever. Or something in the center console was pushing up against the lever causing the fork to ride against gears slightly. That particular post only had 4 responses.

And as far as your second, politely placed google search... well, if you search for a specific Torsen failure, you probably won't come up with much.

However, if you search for Toyota transfer case leak, you'll find almost all links pointing towards the electronic actuator used in ALL Torsen style Toyota transfer cases. Well, I'm pretty sure its all of them. That's all that my experience has shown me. To the best of my knowledge, these Torsen transfer cases were only used on AWD models mainly because of the AWD option.

Until someone posts a pic of the back of their transfer case on a 2010-2013 SR5 or Trail, I won't know if it's used in the lever actuated cases. I know in the 2014s, the SR5 is know an electronic knob. Which, under my assumption, means they now have the electronic actuator that's used on the LE.



We are on the same page when it comes to the quality of components.



This statement leads me to believe that you think the center diff is a completely different type of unit than a transfer case. I don't know what a manually locking center diff would be. That, to me, is a transfer case.

I think of a transfer case or gear box (as euros would call them) as a live axle.
Let me use a rear solid axle, dana 44 as an example. If it were an open diff, meaning no limited slip or locker, power would be driven to the wheel with no resistance. Let's pretend, for arguments sake, that is your part time tcase in 2wd.

Now you engage 4wd in your tcase. In the dana 44, you've just engaged the locker. Power is now given to both driveshafts. In the dana 44, both axle shafts have equal power.

A Torsen style tcase is a limited slip. The dana 44 is now equipped with a limited slip. Power is sent to both axle shafts. Usually there is a split of power in limited slips. For example there may be a 40/60 split. The AWD Torsen tcase now gets that split of power to the front and rear driveshafts. Hence, the AWD.

Now we lock this Torsen tcase. Or engage the locker in the dana 44. Both driveshafts have equal power in the tcase. Or both axle shafts have equal power in the dana 44.

Please don't take my explanation of tcases as to belittle you. I am explaining this for others that may read your statement as I did.

And if I could have bought my LE with a manual tcase (as the 2010-2013 SR5 and TE), I would have. The best benefit of this, to me, would have been fuel economy......

And donuts in the parking lot!!!

I love doughnuts.

 

[Ducmonsta]

I love doughnuts.

And Costco hot dogs.

 

[Titanpat57]

And Costco hot dogs.

"The beatings will continue until morale improves...."

 

[shawn719]

I hate onions , but, love onion rings...??

 

[joneseyyy]

Beatings with Costco hotdogs!? I'm confused.

 

[FrontRange4Runner]

Costco hotdog with the free drink - for the same price as starting the 4Runner.......BEST DEAL EVER. Please don't hit me though.

 

[Canazes9]

David,

I'm sorry if my typed words come out as an attack. I surely did not want to come across that way.

They were interpreted as being condescending. There is another poster on this forum that made a regular habit of posting in this manner. I wasn't the only one that got tired of it. Up until now I hadn't seen this behaviour from you, odd that it starts now. I'm surprised you haven't told me to send you a pm.

I did not see that specification in your previous post. I apologize for misinterpreting that.

It was a statement addressing functionality of 4wd systems and your interpretation was that I was referring to the 2wd operation of the part time transfer case? Then you proceed to correct me instead of asking for clarification? Why would I think this is an attack?

I know it's not a viscous coupler. You are correct, I should have used the term "limited slip" instead of something specific like a viscous coupler. Toyota's torsen is the same concept. Both units act as a limited slip.

If I were going correct someone on a public forum I would attempt to use the proper terms so it didn't look like I had no idea about what I was talking about. The functionality of the Torsen differential is the same as a viscous coupler, the actual mechanism is very different.

I don't know if my google searches come up different than yours, but for your first link, the first page hits have failures for the twin stick conversions. There was one from an FJ cruiser forum. I read through that, and no offense to FJ owners, but that particular owner wasn't the brightest crayon in the box. It sounded as if he never completely disengaged the lever. Or something in the center console was pushing up against the lever causing the fork to ride against gears slightly. That particular post only had 4 responses.

Apparently my google search did come up different than yours, or my ability to focus on what's presented instead of selectively seeing what I want to see is different. The first hit was not the FJ forum, but yotatech. This was followed by hits from the FJ forum, you tube, toyota nation, pirate and this forum (on the 1st page). Again, not over the top w/ failures - I never said the part-time transfer case that Toyota uses is weak or garbage.

You were the one stating that "I don't know where you're seeing any failure rate for ANY Toyota tcase. The only part that fails consistently (and that's usually after 100k+ miles) is the electronic actuator that engages 4wd/hi/lo."

Please don't take my explanation of google searches as an attempt to belittle you. I am explaining this for others that may read your statement as I did.

And as far as your second, politely placed google search... well, if you search for a specific Torsen failure, you probably won't come up with much.

However, if you search for Toyota transfer case leak, you'll find almost all links pointing towards the electronic actuator used in ALL Torsen style Toyota transfer cases. Well, I'm pretty sure its all of them. That's all that my experience has shown me.

I performed the google search you suggested:

https://www.google.com/#q=Toyota+Transfer+Case+Leak

I actually looked at the links, not just selectively looking for what I wanted to see. I couldn't find ANY transfer case leaks related to the Torsen center differential. Most of the leaks had nothing to do w/ the electronic actuator and were related to the front / rear seals. The one hit I found where they tied the links back to the electronic actuator it was on a part time transfer case.

You keep mentioning the electronic actuator as if there is manual shift part time transfer case option on any new 4Runner. There isn't and there hasn't been one for quite some time. This was a discussion about the two available 4wd systems for Toyota 4Runners. @LandCruiser wishes they offered the full time 4wd option from the LE on the TE.

Both systems utilize electronic actuators. The Torsen center differential equipped LE uses an electronic acuator to shift from low range to high range just as the part time transfer case does (EDIT - Wrong, the TE's transfer case utilizes a mechanical linkage to shift from low range to high range). The Torsen center diff has an electronic actuator to lock it, the part time transfer case uses an electronic actuator to shift from 2wd to 4wd.

Again, there is no non electronic actuator option available, so there is no advantage/disadvantages for the two systems based on electronic actuators (Edit - partially wrong, the TE's part time transfer case utilizes one less electronic actuator).

This statement leads me to believe that you think the center diff is a completely different type of unit than a transfer case. I don't know what a manually locking center diff would be. That, to me, is a transfer case.

This statement leads me to believe that you have no idea what you are talking about or how the Torsen center differential works in the LE.

A locking center differential gives you the ability to have direct 50/50 front/rear power distribution when you want it just like activating 4wd on a part time transfer case. When you unlock the center differential it functions as a limited slip differential, allowing unequal distribution of power front/rear which prevents the driveline bind associated w/ a part time 4wd system.

A manually locking center differential would be a Torsen differential that uses a manual lever to lock the differential instead of an electronic actuator. Its function is IDENTICAL to the function of the full time 4wd system currently found in the LE only the means of activating the locking mechanism is different.

Please don't take my explanation of the operation and function of the locking mechanism as an attempt to belittle you. I am explaining this for others that may read your statement as I did.

David

 

[Ducmonsta]

[MENTION=96409]Canazes9[/MENTION]

I don't use the pm system as often as I maybe should. There is nothing in either one of our posts that I feel are negative. I can appreciate a civil conversation albeit typed out. Actually, it's probably one of the more intelligent conversations people have read on this forum in awhile. That is, if they read through all of our petty bickerings of misinterpretations.

Ultimately, I'm glad we're not *****ing about unlit buttons or trying to figure out what tires will fit without rubbing.

:hug:

 

[Donkey]

Wow this thread is fun!

Just to clear up some things:

The 4WD Limited, SR5 and all Trail editions have a transfer case. This is the component to which the front and read propeller shafts connect.

The SR5 and Trail have a part-time transfer case.

The Limited transfer case has both part-time 4WD and full-time 4WD operating modes with a gear based limited slip differential (from Torsen, very common) in the full-time mode.

The actual model numbers for the transfer cases seem to be hard to find. Does anyone have them?

Some were confused when the terms "center differential" and "transfer case" were used interchangeably. The "limited slip/torsen/center differential/locking center differential" is a component within the transfer case of the Limited edition.

Both the SR5 and Trail use an electronic actuator that moves a collar to engage the front axle disconnect when the vehicle is shifted in to 4WD.

David you suggest that the lever actuated transfer case is all electronic. Here is a part diagram of the transfer case shifter from a trail edition, can you tell me which part is the electronic shift solenoid for the transfer case? All I see are manual lever actuated shift rods:

The shift lever in my Trail edition certainly feels like it is an actual shifter and not a switch. Or are you referring to a change made to a specific model year? Just curious.

Having rebuilt both the NP231 (2WD/part-time 4WD) and NP242 (full-time/part-time 4WD) transfer cases it was pretty easy to determine which one was inherently more reliable and which one had more moving parts. It would be a nice feature to have a full-time mode on my 4Runner like the 4th gen did, but I don't see it being a big problem.

 

[Ducmonsta]

The SR5 and Trail have a part-time transfer case.

The Limited transfer case has both part-time and full-time operating modes with a gear based limited slip differential (from Torsen, very common) in the full-time mode.

Whoa, whoa, slow your roll. I read this as my limited with "part time" can be in 2wd. I'm sure we're saying the same thing, but my interpretation of "part time" is 2wd/4wd/hi/lo. Where as "full-time" is AWD/4wd locked/4wd lo locked.

 

[Donkey]

Whoa, whoa, slow your roll. I read this as my limited with "part time" can be in 2wd. I'm sure we're saying the same thing, but my interpretation of "part time" is 2wd/4wd/hi/lo. Where as "full-time" is AWD/4wd locked/4wd lo locked.

Fair enough, I left out a "4WD"

The Limited transfer case has both part-time 4WD and full-time 4WD operating modes with a gear based limited slip differential (from Torsen, very common) in the full-time 4WD mode.

I think the addition of a 2WD mode to that transfer case would be what everyone wants.

 

[Canazes9]

Wow this thread is fun!

Just to clear up some things:

The 4WD Limited, SR5 and all Trail editions have a transfer case. This is the component to which the front and read propeller shafts connect.

The SR5 and Trail have a part-time transfer case.

The Limited transfer case has both part-time and full-time operating modes with a gear based limited slip differential (from Torsen, very common) in the full-time mode.

The actual model numbers for the transfer cases seem to be hard to find. Does anyone have them?

Some were confused when the terms "center differential" and "transfer case" were used interchangeably. The "limited slip/torsen/center differential/locking center differential" is a component within the transfer case of the Limited edition.

Both the SR5 and Trail use an electronic actuator that moves a collar to engage the front axle disconnect when the vehicle is shifted in to 4WD.

David you suggest that the lever actuated transfer case is all electronic. Here is a part diagram of the transfer case shifter from a trail edition, can you tell me which part is the electronic shift solenoid for the transfer case? All I see are manual lever actuated shift rods:

The shift lever in my Trail edition certainly feels like it is an actual shifter and not a switch. Or are you referring to a change made to a specific model year? Just curious.

Having rebuilt both the NP231 (2WD/part-time 4WD) and NP242 (full-time/part-time 4WD) transfer cases it was pretty easy to determine which one was inherently more reliable and which one had more moving parts. It would be a nice feature to have a full-time mode on my 4Runner like the 4th gen did, but I don't see it being a big problem.

Well dammit!

I could have sworn that the manual shift lever in the TE was not a mechanical linkage at all but an electronic actuator w/ a different "button" like the SR5's - looks like I was wrong about that. Thanks for correcting me on that.

David

 

[Donkey]

While we are at it here are some shamelessly hot linked (thank you Lee Peterson FJ80) pictures of the front axle disconnect system present on every 4x4 SR5 and Trail:

Actuator removed from the center section:

Collar in the 4WD position:

Nylon gear:

What appears to be a 380-sized motor

If for some reason the system malfunctions, with some effort you can take off the unit and manually "jam" it in to 4WD in the event of an emergency. This just looks like something I'll be replacing eventually...the location is well protected, but the device looks somewhat fragile.

 

[1engineer]

Wow this thread is fun!

Just to clear up some things:

The 4WD Limited, SR5 and all Trail editions have a transfer case. This is the component to which the front and read propeller shafts connect.

The SR5 and Trail have a part-time transfer case.

The Limited transfer case has both part-time 4WD and full-time 4WD operating modes with a gear based limited slip differential (from Torsen, very common) in the full-time mode.

The actual model numbers for the transfer cases seem to be hard to find. Does anyone have them?

Some were confused when the terms "center differential" and "transfer case" were used interchangeably. The "limited slip/torsen/center differential/locking center differential" is a component within the transfer case of the Limited edition.

Both the SR5 and Trail use an electronic actuator that moves a collar to engage the front axle disconnect when the vehicle is shifted in to 4WD.

David you suggest that the lever actuated transfer case is all electronic. Here is a part diagram of the transfer case shifter from a trail edition, can you tell me which part is the electronic shift solenoid for the transfer case? All I see are manual lever actuated shift rods:


The shift lever in my Trail edition certainly feels like it is an actual shifter and not a switch. Or are you referring to a change made to a specific model year? Just curious.

Having rebuilt both the NP231 (2WD/part-time 4WD) and NP242 (full-time/part-time 4WD) transfer cases it was pretty easy to determine which one was inherently more reliable and which one had more moving parts. It would be a nice feature to have a full-time mode on my 4Runner like the 4th gen did, but I don't see it being a big problem.

Read this thread please http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/127363-electronic-vs-manual-4wd.html and make sure to click on the link in post #12. That link will take you to the best explanation of the A.D.D. (Automatic Disconnecting Differential) that I have read. Yes we have a lever on the older SR5's and all the TE's. That lever actuates the ADD.
This link is post #12 will take you to the original article that the pictures above were pulled from.

 

[Donkey]

Read this thread please http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/127363-electronic-vs-manual-4wd.html and make sure to click on the link in post #12. That link will take you to the best explanation of the A.D.D. (Automatic Disconnecting Differential) that I have read. Yes we have a lever on the older SR5's and all the TE's. That lever actuates the ADD.
This link is post #12 will take you to the original article that the pictures above were pulled from.

I totally understand how it works, you even corrected me when I had suggested it used engine vacuum in yet another thread on this subject. I posted some pictures of the actual unit before this reply too. I'm pretty sure I have the old and very broken vacuum unit from my 92 Wrangler somewhere in the garage from when I swapped it for a 4x4 posi-lock cable.

Seems some of the FJ guys swap it out for the solid limited piece. I'll happily take the decreased wear and minor efficiency improvement the ADD offers.

 

[1engineer]

I totally understand how it works, you even corrected me when I had suggested it used engine vacuum in yet another thread on this subject. I posted some pictures of the actual unit before this reply too. I'm pretty sure I have the old and very broken vacuum unit from my 92 Wrangler somewhere in the garage from when I swapped it for a 4x4 posi-lock cable.

Seems some of the FJ guys swap it out for the solid limited piece. I'll happily take the decreased wear and minor efficiency improvement the ADD offers.

Yeah, I remember now. This subject comes up every now and then. I think next time I will just tell them it works just like Thermodynamics ......*magic*..... pull the lever, poof! it goes into 4WD. magic I say.

 

[Antman]

I hate Costco "Death Dogs".