Handgun in the 4R

[andy2008]

:lol:

 

[gooserunner]

Fnh

I have bought, traded, and sold several handguns. The one that ended them all... FNH FN-57. Most reliable gun ever, low grain high velocity ammo, light, and standard 20 round mags (30 round mags available). It seems that at first everyone loved this gun. Then the sticker shock hit and everyone mocks the gun. All I can say is, until you own one, don't knock it. If you disagree, that usually means you can't afford it...

 

[SShink]

In my humble opinion can't beat a good 1911! Might not have as many rounds don't matter when a lead ashtray hits them in the head.

I do like 1911 and own several, but the exact point at which the trigger breaks is very predictable and makes 1911's hard to shoot unless you have disciplined trigger control - not a gun for beginners by any means. That exact trigger break repetition often produces what shooters call a "flinch"...a "push" of your hand into the recoil.
The trigger break on a Glock or Springfield XD(M) is much less predictable and the shot goes off as somewhat of a surprise to your brain, so you are less apt to push into the recoil.

 

[SShink]

If you disagree, that usually means you can't afford it...

I had one and sold it. The magazine capacity was great, but the clunky sights, crappy plastic slide release and low stopping power turned me off.
Nice Springfield...Try PISTOLGEAR |Springfield XD XDm Parts, Accessories, Magazines, Sights in stock for XD accessories.

 

[Ryan1975]

It just seems like something needs to change to TRY to stop these shootings.

Go kneejerk in your own country.

 

[andy2008]

I do like 1911 and own several, but the exact point at which the trigger breaks is very predictable and makes 1911's hard to shoot unless you have disciplined trigger control - not a gun for beginners by any means. That exact trigger break repetition often produces what shooters call a "flinch"...a "push" of your hand into the recoil.
The trigger break on a Glock or Springfield XD(M) is much less predictable and the shot goes off as somewhat of a surprise to your brain, so you are less apt to push into the recoil.

Agreed I'm from wv so I will give you we are pretty much born with a gun in the crib:uzi: between that 1911 and my ar hell just those two shot 10000 rounds through them. Not a great gun to start out with.but come on 45 - 9 if I was him I'd learn :lol:

 

[hrt4me]

I do like 1911 and own several, but the exact point at which the trigger breaks is very predictable and makes 1911's hard to shoot unless you have disciplined trigger control - not a gun for beginners by any means. That exact trigger break repetition often produces what shooters call a "flinch"...a "push" of your hand into the recoil.
The trigger break on a Glock or Springfield XD(M) is much less predictable and the shot goes off as somewhat of a surprise to your brain, so you are less apt to push into the recoil.

not so

 

[larryccf1]

i'll weigh in on this one - obviously everyone has an opinion but early on, bigbillyt gave the best advise - a wheel gun

problem with any automatic, a) i don't want to store it with a round in the chamber in the house - kids might find it, etc b) in the event of need, it will be a high stress environment, your pulse will be accelerating and you'll be tense - you could easily forget to rack the slide to chamber a round, or forget to take the safety off etc. You train like you fight and you fight like you train - if you don't plan on spending a lot of time at the range with that pistol, on a regular basis, so that it's operation (like clearing jams) becomes genetically encoded you're better off with a wheel gun (revolver)

everyone watched cowboy westerns as a kid, and even Cagney & Lucy - operating a revolver is intuitive, and especially in the case of your spouse, if she needs to use it when you're not home, she'll know how to easily. A little time at the range wouldn't be a bad idea for her - but she won't have a hard time remembering how to use it if/when the time comes

plus a revolver doesn't have a safety (doesn't need one) and is harder to accidentally discharge - you have to consciously pull the trigger. That is not true for some of the autos, especially the glock -

on the subject of 10, 14 or even 30 round mags - doubtfull you'll be getting into a sustained firefight. Personally, i conceal carry a two shot aluminum derringer - just enough to encourage whoever to find someone else to play with. The revolver for my wife, first round is a blank - she knows if someone breaks in when i'm not around, to lock herself in the bedroom and if she hears them in the hall, to fire that first round into the ceiling or wherever to let them know she's armed, indicate to them in a forceful confident voice that she's armed and has called the popo and it would be a good thing for them to consider other options, like leaving

btw, just from watching cagney & lucy (yeah i know it was lacy) she knew how to sweep a room instinctively

just 02 from an old fart

 

[SShink]

How about one of these stashed beneath your sliding tray?

 

[rebelbowtie]

I like the idea of mounting a rubber covered rare-earth magnet on the inside of the console to "stick" a handgun to. There'd be no draw stroke, just reach in and grab it. Only problem is the trigger is exposed and poses a safety hazard.

Get a MIC holster for it and fasten it to the console and the trigger guard is covered....but then you have a draw stroke again and that's what you're trying to avoid.

 

[M1911]

4Runner10:

I tell you what -- we won't tell you what the laws should be in your country and you don't tell us what the laws should be in our country.

We respect that your country is a democracy and that your citizens have decided what your laws should be, even though we might disagree with some of them. Please show us the same respect.

 

[SShink]

but come on 45 - 9

Not much difference in diameter...I will take the less recoil/faster follow-up shot, more magazine capacity any day. Point is, you get hit with a Federal HST 147gr 9mm+p and your are out of the fight.

 

[aha2988]

figured this thread would jump off topic. if you wish to discuss political, religious, off topic posts you should do so in the off topic section of the forum.

I believe just about every handgun had been mentioned I'm sure the OP has everyone's advice.

owning a gun is a responsibility not a joke to be taken lightly (even for experienced gun users) it is not a joke that this subject has become a controversy. it is not cool, helpful, or respectful to jump on others opinions or beliefs. keep on topic or this thread will be closed

 

[rebelbowtie]

I have bought, traded, and sold several handguns. The one that ended them all... FNH FN-57. Most reliable gun ever, low grain high velocity ammo, light, and standard 20 round mags (30 round mags available). It seems that at first everyone loved this gun. Then the sticker shock hit and everyone mocks the gun. All I can say is, until you own one, don't knock it. If you disagree, that usually means you can't afford it...

The FiveseveN is a pretty controversial fire arm in itself. I'd love to own one but don't have that kind of scratch laying around or am I shooting at armored targets.

 

[SShink]

The FiveseveN is a pretty controversial fire arm in itself. I'd love to own one but don't have that kind of scratch laying around or am I shooting at armored targets.

It's a myth that 5.7 rounds are armor piercing. The round is technically a rifle round and may penetrate some soft armor, but so will a .223. The 5.7 round was originally designed to lose velocity very quickly when it strikes something. The P90, which it was originally designed for, is a personal defense weapon and would be used in settings where collateral damage is of concern. The blue ballistic tipped round will not penetrate multiple layers of drywall.

The PS90, civilian version of the P90 would probably fit well in the pocket on the back of the 4Runner's front passenger seat.

 

[M1911]

problem with any automatic, a) i don't want to store it with a round in the chamber in the house - kids might find it, etc b) in the event of need, it will be a high stress environment, your pulse will be accelerating and you'll be tense - you could easily forget to rack the slide to chamber a round, or forget to take the safety off etc.

Last year I competed in IDPA once or twice a month using a S&W Model 66 -- a medium framed revolver. It is truly a fine gun, and I have carried a couple of my K-frames for personal protection. A S&W K or L-frame revolver or a Ruger GP100 would certainly be a reasonable choice for home defense, though they are rather bulky for concealed carry.

That said, I will take a bit of an exception with some of your advice. If you are concerned about a child accessing a gun, I wouldn't count on leaving a semi-auto with a chamber empty as being childproof. Nor would I count on a loaded revolver being childproof. Keep the gun in a holster on your hip or in a quick access safe, and teach the children not to touch the guns. I keep a 1911 for personal protection and it is stored in the same condition that I carry it -- with a full magazine, a round in the chamber, the hammer cocked and the safety on.

operating a revolver is intuitive, and especially in the case of your spouse, if she needs to use it when you're not home, she'll know how to easily. plus a revolver doesn't have a safety (doesn't need one) and is harder to accidentally discharge - you have to consciously pull the trigger. That is not true for some of the autos, especially the glock

I have taught novices to shoot, including a number of older women. Many of them had a hard time pulling the double action trigger on a revolver. If you do have to reload, reloading a revolver quickly takes a lot of training and repetition. It is a lot easier to teach someone to quickly and reliably reload a semi-auto than it is to teach them to quickly and reliably reload a revolver.

As far as a revolver being safer, I disagree. People have a startle reflex. When we startle, we clench our fists, and the pressure that we clench at can be up to 50 lbs. What is the weight of a double-action trigger? 10-12 lbs. If a person really feels that weight of a trigger is safer, then they can get a double-action/single-action revolver like a SIG -- the first trigger pull is about as long and hard as a double action revolver. As for the Glock, if you really insist, you can put a stiffer spring in it to bring the trigger pull up over 10 lbs. The spring costs less than $5 and all you need to install it is a punch and a youtube video.

As I said, I think a revolver is a fine choice. I just don't see it as a better choice than a semi-auto -- it has some advantages but plenty of disadvantages as well.

 

[rebelbowtie]

It's a myth that 5.7 rounds are armor piercing. The round is technically a rifle round and may penetrate some soft armor, but so will a .223. The 5.7 round was originally designed to lose velocity very quickly when it strikes something. The P90, which it was originally designed for, is a personal defense weapon and would be used in settings where collateral damage is of concern. The blue ballistic tipped round will not penetrate multiple layers of drywall.

The PS90, civilian version of the P90 would probably fit well in the pocket on the back of the 4Runner's front passenger seat.

The civilian approve 5.7 ammo this may be true but regardless it's a nice piece of hardware. I've shot the P90 before its a neat firearm as well, one of my co workers had one.

 

[larryccf1]

.....

That said, I will take a bit of an exception with some of your advice. If you are concerned about a child accessing a gun, I wouldn't count on leaving a semi-auto with a chamber empty as being childproof. Nor would I count on a loaded revolver being childproof. Keep the gun in a holster on your hip or in a quick access safe, and teach the children not to touch the guns. I keep a 1911 for personal protection and it is stored in the same condition that I carry it -- with a full magazine, a round in the chamber, the hammer cocked and the safety on.

actually i don't disagree - i wasn't trying to suggest a revolver was totally safe left out but it is safer than an automatic left in the same condition - with a round in the chamber ready to use.


I have taught novices to shoot, including a number of older women. Many of them had a hard time pulling the double action trigger on a revolver. If you do have to reload, reloading a revolver quickly takes a lot of training and repetition. It is a lot easier to teach someone to quickly and reliably reload a semi-auto than it is to teach them to quickly and reliably reload a revolver.

that may be true, i won't argue it - but unless the individual practices routinely, and most aren't, will he/she remember it 2 - 10 years down the road when the need arises?


........ As for the Glock, if you really insist, you can put a stiffer spring in it to bring the trigger pull up over 10 lbs. The spring costs less than $5 and all you need to install it is a punch and a youtube video.

the glock has a number of safety related issues, unrelated to spring pull weight and that's why i kind of singled out glock. Glock has proven extremely adept at containing damage reports from becoming public. It's true a glock will fire 99.99% of the time you pull the trigger, but what is not widely known, is that a glock will sometimes discharge when you haven't pulled the trigger from frame torsion flex. There was an incident in calgary alberta canada, a swat officer was riding patrol in a crown vic, with a G22 holstered on his right leg in a leather holster, he was pursuing a kid joy riding in a stolen car, when the kid bailed out running off in one direction while the car drove off in another. The officer hit the brakes, slammed it into park, had opened the door and pivoting in the seat, while pushing off the brake pedal with his right foot for a rapid exit, his glock discharged into the back of his leg. The calgary pd forensics lab was able to replicate the event in the lab, and the flash burns were on his trousers pant leg and inside the holster where they should have been if the weapon had been fully seated in the holster - so he was exonarated of responsibility. The torsion flex was occurring high up the right grip just where the word "smyrna" is, and on the inside of the frame right there is the transfer bar. IALEFI (int'l assoc of law enforcement firearms instructors) actually started quietly collecting reports of safety issues from PDs around the country years ago - glock has a clause in every sale / lease contract that stipulates, with strong penalty, that in the event of a safety incident, no information will be dis-seminated until a full investigation is completed and the file closed. They never are - that's from someone inside glock - i could talk for hours on that subject. google for glock safety issues, or glock ADs or glock accidental discharges - you'll still be reading next week.

if you want to check something on a glock, next time you have one available to you, check how far out of battery it'll fire - the gen 1 thru gen 3 (i can't speak for gen 4) standard size frame will fire up to 55 thou OUT OF BATTERY - that is frame flex and trigger component geometry related. Glock uses the poorest (least rigid) polymer of all the mfgrs. Add to that, the glock barrel unlocks from the slide in the first 10-15 thou of slide travel, where an HK or SIG barrels do not unlock for approx 90 thou of slide travel - and they will not fire out of battery

As I said, I think a revolver is a fine choice. I just don't see it as a better choice than a semi-auto -- it has some advantages but plenty of disadvantages as well.

again, i'm talking about as a choice for the user that in all likelihood might take some training, but then simply put it in the night stand (locked etc) and not touch it again until it's needed. For the individual that's going to stay current at the range, imho, it's a toss up between a revolver or an auto - whatever their preference is

 

[M1911]

actually i don't disagree - i wasn't trying to suggest a revolver was totally safe left out but it is safer than an automatic left in the same condition - with a round in the chamber ready to use.

We're going to have to agree to disagree with that. If a revolver is loaded and you pull the trigger, it goes boom. If a Glock or SIG is loaded and you pull the trigger, it goes boom. The difference in length and weight of trigger pull just aren't that important, IMO.

again, i'm talking about as a choice for the user that in all likelihood might take some training, but then simply put it in the night stand (locked etc) and not touch it again until it's needed.

If you put a loaded revolver in a night stand and pull it out 3 years later and pull the trigger, it goes boom. You keep pulling the trigger until it clicks.

If you put a loaded SIG in a night stand and pull it out 3 years later and pull the trigger, it goes boom. You keep pulling the trigger until the slide locks back.

I just don't see much of a difference. As an NRA certified instructor, I'm well aware of the NRA dogma that revolvers are simpler, but I just don't see it. I'm not knocking revolvers -- I feel perfectly well armed with my 4" Model 19 and a few speedloaders.

 

[andy2008]

Not much difference in diameter...I will take the less recoil/faster follow-up shot, more magazine capacity any day. Point is, you get hit with a Federal HST 147gr 9mm+p and your are out of the fight.

Your right its all personal preference. I had always wanted a 45 and I've got a 9 and a pocket keltec . The 45 has never bothered me personally. Probably because I've shot it so much it's what I like. The good thing is we have another yota lover getting into the sport. He's got plenty to choose from here for sure. Safety first every guns loaded and have fun.