interesting conversation re: Honda Pilot

[Glenn_Law]

My son's third-grade teacher asked me how I liked my 4Runner and how well it holds up off-road. I gave a glowing review, of course.

It turns out that she has a Honda Pilot. When she drove across a flat, grassy pasture at someone's ranch, one of the struts got ripped out. $850 to repair. The shop explained to her that the Pilot is a car that looks like an SUV, but it is built like a car and it should only be driven on paved surfaces. She was stunned that it couldn't handle a simple grassy pasture or trail. Now she wants a 4Runner or a Subaru Outback. I told her to get the 4Runner.

Glenn

 

[philsey]

There's more to that story than that. I'm not suggesting the Pilot is suitable for serious offroading, but it takes something more than a "flat, grassy pasture" to "RIP a strut off" .... I mean c'mon.

 

[Snooperstyle]

The Subaru Outback is a fantastic vehicle. I put my old one through every test a man can put a car through, and it passed. But I still love my t4r even more!

 

[rebelbowtie]

i wouldnt own a newer Outback unless it was the 3.6R because all other engine options come with a CVT automatic which is garbage. I know at least one person on here owns one and likes it but you cant argue the fact that CVT's dont last or handle abuse.

Also i smell BS in the flat grassy field story FWIW

 

[scanny]

I think that there was something more than just grassy pasture in that. Probably hidden rock or something. I had a Ford Escape which is hardly stonger than Pilot and it could take some abuse for sure. Was squeaking in the rear after 3 years but nothing got ripped off.

 

[rlumpy]

We have a 2003 Pilot, used it on the occasional gravel backroad, beat it up moderately. At about 40,000 miles, after a trip to Joshua Tree Monument in California, both struts and one rear shock started leaking oil. Two engine mounts also failed, including the oil-filled one. Then the window regulators started to fail.

So no, the Pilot isn't made for the tough stuff. It is a nice vehicle to drive, though, feels like a sports car after driving my TE.

 

[rebelbowtie]

We have a 2003 Pilot, used it on the occasional gravel backroad, beat it up moderately. At about 40,000 miles, after a trip to Joshua Tree Monument in California, both struts and one rear shock started leaking oil. Two engine mounts also failed, including the oil-filled one. Then the window regulators started to fail.

So no, the Pilot isn't made for the tough stuff. It is a nice vehicle to drive, though, feels like a sports car after driving my TE.

That's pretty crappy review an uncommon for a Honda product. Struts and shocks are consumable parts but the engine mount breaking is troubling to say the least.

 

[JB.]

We have a 2003 Pilot, used it on the occasional gravel backroad, beat it up moderately. At about 40,000 miles, after a trip to Joshua Tree Monument in California, both struts and one rear shock started leaking oil. Two engine mounts also failed, including the oil-filled one. Then the window regulators started to fail.

So no, the Pilot isn't made for the tough stuff. It is a nice vehicle to drive, though, feels like a sports car after driving my TE.

A friend's 2004 was treated similarly and broke a couple of engine mounts at about the same mileage. When you look at the weight of the Pilot, it's obvious there is a lot of reinforcement added but it looks like they missed a few spots.

 

[STLDAVE]

We have a 2003 Pilot, used it on the occasional gravel backroad, beat it up moderately. At about 40,000 miles, after a trip to Joshua Tree Monument in California, both struts and one rear shock started leaking oil. Two engine mounts also failed, including the oil-filled one. Then the window regulators started to fail.

So no, the Pilot isn't made for the tough stuff. It is a nice vehicle to drive, though, feels like a sports car after driving my TE.

I put 140,000 on my '03 Pilot and had to replace one strut, front and right side engine mount (the right probably due to the bad front mount), and a idle-air control valve. According to my Honda mechanic, that's about the sum of issues they found with the 1st gen Pilots. I used it offroad alot, often taking it where Honda didn't really intend for it to go. To tear the strut off would have required excessive speed and an obstacle. It is a reliable and capable vehicle when driven prudently (no large rock crawling). I drove mine on some trails that most 4Runner owners wouldn't try (members of this forum excluded, of course) with no problems or damage.

 

[Thai]

i wouldnt own a newer Outback unless it was the 3.6R because all other engine options come with a CVT automatic which is garbage. I know at least one person on here owns one and likes it but you cant argue the fact that CVT's dont last or handle abuse.

Also i smell BS in the flat grassy field story FWIW

Based on what?? Subaru CVTs don't last?

 

[rebelbowtie]

Based on what?? Subaru CVTs don't last?

I have yet to see any CVT, not bashing Subaru that last longer than 100,000 miles without major rebuilds. Ford, Nissan, VW, Audi all have major reported CVT failure some as early as 40,000 miles. Most CVT units are sealed and non serviceable and are usually just replaced rather than rebuilt.

 

[Thai]

I have yet to see any CVT, not bashing Subaru that last longer than 100,000 miles without major rebuilds. Ford, Nissan, VW, Audi all have major reported CVT failure some as early as 40,000 miles. Most CVT units are sealed and non serviceable and are usually just replaced rather than rebuilt.

Are you talking about the 1st gen CVTs from Nissan, etc.?? Or the current CVTs avail on market??

Well, so far, since 2010, there has been no such trends on the forums...but we will see i guess. Subaru is OK with the 4-cyl CVT to tow 2700 lbs...so, i doubt that it is a delicate flower as you make it out to be!

You do realize the Prius has CVT...and those things last a freaking long time!! Same for Honda CVTs etc..

I think that the early CVTs were problematic...the newer ones are pretty reliable. Here is a pic of Subaru's CVT: (chain driven, not belt like the older CVTs)

 

[Thai]

It turns out that she has a Honda Pilot. When she drove across a flat, grassy pasture at someone's ranch, one of the struts got ripped out. $850 to repair. The shop explained to her that the Pilot is a car that looks like an SUV, but it is built like a car and it should only be driven on paved surfaces. She was stunned that it couldn't handle a simple grassy pasture or trail. Now she wants a 4Runner or a Subaru Outback. I told her to get the 4Runner.

Glenn

Back to original post. If that was really a flat grassy pasture, then i think that the Outback should be OK. Subaru AWD system is top-notch among AWD systems:

Subaru AWD videos:

Subaru AWD Uphill Comparison Test - YouTube

Subaru All Wheel Drive Traction Testing - YouTube

Live demonstration of Subaru Forester and Outback's 4x4 symmetrical all wheel drive system - YouTube

Subaru Symmetrical AWD vs. Honda, Toyota, and Volkswagen - YouTube

The engine, esp. the 4-cyl is economical and has decent power:

Like what i did on this forum, i made some torque curve calculations of both Outback's engine: Torque Curve b/w 2.5 and 3.6 - Subaru Outback - Subaru Outback Forums

Fuel economy is excellent. I am currently averaging 27.9 mpg with about 30/70% city/hwy driving. Cruising at 72 mph, i can get 30-31 mpg...at 68 mph, i can get 32-33 mpg.

Obviously, if the terrain was tougher (e.g. rock crawling or huge cliffs), then 4runner is infinitely better. There is no stock protection underneath in the Subaru. Yes, there is good ground clearance (8.7" in Outback), but the approach/breakover/departure angles suck. No low range. No locker. And the tires are street tires. It can't tow much, as compared to 4runners.

However, as an all-season and mild off-roading, you can't beat an Outback! It is very roomy...very quiet (as quiet as my parent's 2010 ES350) and refined. The roof rack is plain brilliant!! It is soooo smooth on-road.

One day though, i will take it off-road and see how it works...obviously, it won't be anything that any hardcore 4runner owners want to be bothered with.

 

[rebelbowtie]

I know absolutely nothing of Prius except that Hybrids are a bit of a joke save for the Volt. But I assume you also own a Prius and will tell me how awesome it is.

It seems as though I've offended you by pointing out fact that CVT's are frail beast. I wish you best of luck in your Subaru ownership and maybe the Outback's CVT will break the trend of unreliability.

Aside from reliability issues CVT seems great on paper with its essential infinite variable gear ratios and it works well in something like a lawn mower or ATV. But in something like a passenger vehicle it translated into dull, unresponsive and uninspiring driving experience.

Before purchasing my 4Runner I test drove many other vehicles that would fit my needs including CVT variants of the Outback (and CVT variants of my A4 before purchase) and it was boring. Ultimately I lost the fight with practicality of a car/wagon and gave into my want for a body on frame 4x4 and bought the 4Runner.

 

[36bound]

The Subaru Outback is a fantastic vehicle. I put my old one through every test a man can put a car through, and it passed. But I still love my t4r even more!

I love my 4runner TE. But frankly, a Subaru Outback is, in fact, a proven 250,000+ mile vehicle. This is reflected in the resale value of ANY Subaru. Frankly, the overwhelming majority of working class folks (like me) are not buying $37,000 vehicles to go rock climbing, "muddin'" or to ford small rivers. As far as handling "pastures", 2-track trails, forest service roads, hunting and fishing duties, camping, kayaking and snow- the Subaru Outback is right there with the 4runner in terms of reliability.

I've seen Sooby engines used as the power plant in aircraft...Just sayin'.

 

[Thai]

I know absolutely nothing of Prius except that Hybrids are a bit of a joke save for the Volt. But I assume you also own a Prius and will tell me how awesome it is.

It seems as though I've offended you by pointing out fact that CVT's are frail beast. I wish you best of luck in your Subaru ownership and maybe the Outback's CVT will break the trend of unreliability.

But in something like a passenger vehicle it translated into dull, unresponsive and uninspiring driving experience.

I am passionate about stuff i like.

Funny that you mention the Volt...it sure is selling well despite the only one that you "approve" of.

Prius are boring...but damn it, they sure save tons of gas and maintenance!! Reliability and durability may very exceed that of your 4runner...shocking, isn't it!

You did not answer my question. Are you talking about the current gen CVTs from Nissan, Audi, Subaru, etc.?? Hybrids have had chain-driven CVTs and have been very reliable. I am just asking for some clarity in what you wrote...or are you just blowing smoke?

It is funny...you mentioned how boring CVT cars are...what is the 4runner? A 5th gen? A racecar?! Dude, 4runners are exciting off-road. On-road, they are sloppy, leaning-loving, poor braking, slow responding, heavy SUV. No doubt, I love them!! But, to call them exciting (other than off-roading) is a bit of a joke, no? :gun5:

 

[rebelbowtie]

Also if you want to post impressive off road videos of Subaru's you need to post Bluefox's videos from the Subaru Outback/Forester forums. Dudes got a sick rig.

Also Subaru AWD isn't really any different than what the 4Runner has or Audi's Quattro. They're Torsen AWD systems that use torque sensing viscous clutch differentials. However iirc according to my research when I was looking to purchase an Outback, Subaru vehicles with CVT transmissions use a slightly different AWD system that is electronically and hydraulically controlled non permanent auto-locking front wheel drive biased AWD rather than mechanical full time AWD like Torsen. It is still a good system and similar to Haldex AWD from my understanding, Volvo, GM, BMW, VW, Lamborghini all use this style AWD

 

[rebelbowtie]

Yes current chain driven CVT's, from my knowledge all Audi CVT's have been chain driven. Failures are less than earlier models but they still aren't too we're they should be. Maybe in the years to come and they perfect them in mass produced use but not right now.

I conducted lots of research on those Subaru's as I really wanted to purchase one. And I apologize for appearing to compare the driving experience of a 4Runner to a car. The Outback was a vehicle with a potent turbo charged engine and paddle shifters, sorry if I expected it to be sporty. Also back to back testing of an A4 multi tonic CVT compare to Tiptronic traditional automatic with same package and 2.0T the Tiptronic was far more responsive and fun to drive.

 

[Thai]

Also if you want to post impressive off road videos of Subaru's you need to post Bluefox's videos from the Subaru Outback/Forester forums. Dudes got a sick rig.

Also Subaru AWD isn't really any different than what the 4Runner has or Audi's Quattro. They're Torsen AWD systems that use torque sensing viscous clutch differentials. However iirc according to my research when I was looking to purchase an Outback, Subaru vehicles with CVT transmissions use a slightly different AWD system that is electronically and hydraulically controlled non permanent auto-locking front wheel drive biased AWD rather than mechanical full time AWD like Torsen. It is still a good system and similar to Haldex AWD from my understanding, Volvo, GM, BMW, VW, Lamborghini all use this style AWD

Anything hardcore off-roading in a Subaru is a joke IMO. There is no point. Sick rig or not, it is still a car on high heels.

CVT AWD is 60/40 biased (f/r) full-time system. It uses clutches i believe. One of the videos above shows what CVT AWD can do...aka, same as the other AWD system from Subaru (3.6 H6 version). Now, if i was rock crawling a lot or locking the center diff a lot, then yeah, a mechanical system is preferred. But, in a Subaru? Nah, that's OK...either system should be plenty reliable...for many miles. I am shock that your research did not show that.

 

[rebelbowtie]

I said it was still a good AWD system just slightly different the topic was that of CVT reliability though.