Magnuson Supercharger for 2010-Present & 2010-2014 FJ

[Jetboy]

The boost effectively shortens the power stroke as compared to the intake air volume. Thermal efficiency goes down in that scenario in most cases. Hence the reason atkinson cycle is more thermally efficient. You can try to solve the issue with a lean burn and cool the cyl. temps with direct injection - but we don't have that option. I would expect thermal efficiency to drop under most scenarios. The 1GR in a 4runner does not run at low output at highway speeds. It will probably be in boost range 95% of the time on the highway. I doubt it will experience a bypass condition very often.

I think it may see some improvements by not down shifting so often. I'd guess Magnusson also tunes it leaner than Toyota. I'm not sure how the ultimate balance works out. I would expect an mpg hit for most uses other than possibly towing where you're often in 3rd gear at high rpms. In that case staying in 5th gear might make up for the less efficient burn.

 

[Crocket]

Yes, everything is give and take.. but I don't think you understand how a modern engine works. Let me throw out a few facts that might shed some light.

In light throttle conditions:
The engine will be running the same static compression ratio, the same AFR, the same timing, the same IAT, the same valve timing, the same exhaust back pressure. The compressor itself will be in bypass mode creating no drag to speak of...

Now explain where this 2-4mpg hit is coming from? If you point to bumpers, tires, rack, lift... i'm 100% with you. Also if you point at accelerating faster and getting into open loop or boost... but simple light throttle... there should be no major change. But we will see here shortly.

But honestly if I cared about MPG much... I would not own this truck to start with. It is a brick and I've done many things to make it a bigger brick. I really only care when I'm on a trip and trying to get decent range.

LOL, thanks for the back handed explanation. I know more than you think, and possibly more than yourself, so lets not assume anything and try to keep it friendly Looking forward to hearing back everyone's findings/opinions on these kits once installed and some real world miles are put on them.

 

[Crocket]

The boost effectively shortens the power stroke as compared to the intake air volume. Thermal efficiency goes down in that scenario in most cases. Hence the reason atkinson cycle is more thermally efficient. You can try to solve the issue with a lean burn and cool the cyl. temps with direct injection - but we don't have that option. I would expect thermal efficiency to drop under most scenarios. The 1GR in a 4runner does not run at low output at highway speeds. It will probably be in boost range 95% of the time on the highway. I doubt it will experience a bypass condition very often.

I think it may see some improvements by not down shifting so often. I'd guess Magnusson also tunes it leaner than Toyota. I'm not sure how the ultimate balance works out. I would expect an mpg hit for most uses other than possibly towing where you're often in 3rd gear at high rpms. In that case staying in 5th gear might make up for the less efficient burn.

+1

Well said.

 

[wfo9]

The boost effectively shortens the power stroke as compared to the intake air volume. Thermal efficiency goes down in that scenario in most cases. Hence the reason atkinson cycle is more thermally efficient. You can try to solve the issue with a lean burn and cool the cyl. temps with direct injection - but we don't have that option. I would expect thermal efficiency to drop under most scenarios. The 1GR in a 4runner does not run at low output at highway speeds. It will probably be in boost range 95% of the time on the highway. I doubt it will experience a bypass condition very often.

I think it may see some improvements by not down shifting so often. I'd guess Magnusson also tunes it leaner than Toyota. I'm not sure how the ultimate balance works out. I would expect an mpg hit for most uses other than possibly towing where you're often in 3rd gear at high rpms. In that case staying in 5th gear might make up for the less efficient burn.

I'll let [MENTION=139149]THESS[/MENTION] respond with what he sees at hwy cruising speeds since I can't give details on this particular platform until I get mine up and running. Boost should be rare on any flat ground hwy or traffic speed scenario.

 

[wfo9]

LOL, thanks for the back handed explanation. I know more than you think, and possibly more than yourself, so lets not assume anything and try to keep it friendly Looking forward to hearing back everyone's findings/opinions on these kits once installed and some real world miles are put on them.

Believe me... I want to keep it friendly.

I'm not saying there will be an improvement in MPG.. but the sky is falling comments are just ridiculous especially when they start with "I don't know much about this, but I think....."

Then we have the "should be in boost 95% of the time" comment LOL.

These are very misleading statements from my perspective. But lets wait for some facts. I promise to be 100% honest in all results and I think Travis has the same tact. I will try to provide actual data also. So let's just give it some time before getting the drama going again.

 

[Crocket]

Believe me... I want to keep it friendly.

I'm not saying there will be an improvement in MPG.. but the sky is falling comments are just ridiculous especially when they start with "I don't know much about this, but I think....."

Then we have in the boost 98% of the time LOL.

These are very misleading statements. Lets wait for some facts. I promise to be 100% honest in all results and I think Travis has the same tact.

For the most part I agree. Although my first post above (perhaps you weren't referencing me specifically in your second reply, kind of hard to tell) was far from the sky is falling, but more inline with what you've said, mpg shouldn't be horrendous, but it will take a noticeable hit in my opinion, everything being equal. I've been around after market turbo and supercharger systems long enough to know what they are like.

And just to clarify, my comment above regarding lack of knowledge on this kit was in regards to how exactly it was tuned from Magnuson for the 4Runner and not on principals of how these systems work.

As you've said, let's wait and see. Looking forward to your and others unbiased reviews on this cool new performance option.

:bigok:

 

[Jetboy]

Believe me... I want to keep it friendly.

I'm not saying there will be an improvement in MPG.. but the sky is falling comments are just ridiculous especially when they start with "I don't know much about this, but I think....."

Then we have the "should be in boost 95% of the time" comment LOL.

These are very misleading statements from my perspective. But lets wait for some facts. I promise to be 100% honest in all results and I think Travis has the same tact. I will try to provide actual data also. So let's just give it some time before getting the drama going again.

Have you ever looked at engine load at speed? Buy an OBD2 dongle and watch. It'll be into the boost almost every highway mile. This is a pretty easy prediction. 95% of the time at 80mph is probably conservative. Probably closer to 99%. Even down hill. (I don't know exactly how Toyota calculates load - generally it's a manifold vacuum measurement, but with dual VVTI there's probably not a perfect relationship - either way I think it's a pretty good predictor of when it will bypass the screws - the answer is almost never at highway speeds, probably often sitting at a stoplight)

Edit: As per EPA requirements LOAD_PCT = [current airflow] / [(peak airflow at WOT@STP as a function of rpm) * (BARO/29.92) * SQRT(298/(AAT+273))]

I think it's a pretty good indicator.

It still might make up for the losses in efficiency by other benefits - like retaining a locked torque converter for example. It's easy to lose 10% just from opening the tq converter.

 

[4Reak Show]

Have you ever looked at engine load at speed? Buy an OBD2 dongle and watch. It'll be into the boost almost every highway mile. This is a pretty easy prediction. 95% of the time at 80mph is probably conservative. Probably closer to 99%. Even down hill. (I don't know exactly how Toyota calculates load - generally it's a manifold vacuum measurement, but with dual VVTI there's probably not a perfect relationship - either way I think it's a pretty good predictor of when it will bypass the screws - the answer is almost never at highway speeds, probably often sitting at a stoplight)

Edit: As per EPA requirements LOAD_PCT = [current airflow] / [(peak airflow at WOT@STP as a function of rpm) * (BARO/29.92) * SQRT(298/(AAT+273))]

I think it's a pretty good indicator.

But is load calculation related directly to boost? Serious question that in curious about. It's my understanding that the boost levels (over 0 psi manifold pressure) is only kicked in when the throttle is opened to remove vacuum. That being said, cruising at highway speed, the engine should still be under some portion of vacuum since throttle isn't opened too much.

I don't know, that's how my S/C'd 3.4 operates. Highway cruising at 3,000 RPMs and boost gauge shows like 10/15 inches of vacuum. Only until I get my foot into it (opening throttle, removing vacuum and allowing boost) does it go from vacuum to pressure.

This is of course all speculation since the real world will tell, but I'm betting we're gonna be complaining about the cost of eating up tires from burning out before we complain at the pump!

And again, gotta pay to play!

 

[Jetboy]

But is load calculation related directly to boost? Serious question that in curious about. It's my understanding that the boost levels (over 0 psi manifold pressure) is only kicked in when the throttle is opened to remove vacuum. That being said, cruising at highway speed, the engine should still be under some portion of vacuum since throttle isn't opened too much.

I don't know, that's how my S/C'd 3.4 operates. Highway cruising at 3,000 RPMs and boost gauge shows like 10/15 inches of vacuum. Only until I get my foot into it (opening throttle, removing vacuum and allowing boost) does it go from vacuum to pressure.

This is of course all speculation since the real world will tell, but I'm betting we're gonna be complaining about the cost of eating up tires from burning out before we complain at the pump!

And again, gotta pay to play!

Load calculation is linearly related to manifold pressure. Assuming the bypass valve is using the same measurement, then yes the two would be directly related. If the bypass valve is done via a solenoid and electronics - it's whatever they program it to do. These engines are pretty much always just on the verge of a downshift - meaning near peak torque at the current rpm. It's a balance of course. The power necessary to overcome friction is the same. In theory the same air volume would flow through anytime you can maintain highway speed in 5th gear. The problem is that a 5th gen with larger tires and a small lift can rarely maintain 5th gear at 80+mph. So the valve will partially close and boost will generate above the throttle valve until it balances power output. At that point it will likely still have some measured vacuum inside the manifold, but there will be boost pressure above atmospheric pressure upstream of the throttle valve.

 

[4Reak Show]

Load calculation is linearly related to manifold pressure. Assuming the bypass valve is using the same measurement, then yes the two would be directly related. If the bypass valve is done via a solenoid and electronics - it's whatever they program it to do. These engines are pretty much always just on the verge of a downshift - meaning near peak torque at the current rpm. It's a balance of course. The power necessary to overcome friction is the same. In theory the same air volume would flow through anytime you can maintain highway speed in 5th gear. The problem is that a 5th gen with larger tires and a small lift can rarely maintain 5th gear at 80+mph. So the valve will partially close and boost will generate above the throttle valve until it balances power output. At that point it will likely still have some measured vacuum inside the manifold, but there will be boost pressure above atmospheric pressure upstream of the throttle valve.

Oh snap alrighty. That makes sense. Good explanation.

 

[Jetboy]

The fact that it's almost always in the high load range means the engine has very little reserve power at cruising rpms. It's a lot more comfortable to add some boost than have constant downshifts. Even if you do lose 1 or 2mpg, I think it'll be a lot nicer to drive on the highway from a comfort level.

 

[Scharfschütze]

I'm confused here... Why are we debating the technical reasons MPG will tank with this kit when we have a real world review showing it hasn't? I put my key takeaways in bold below.

[MENTION=139149]THESS[/MENTION] when did you install the front bumper? Prior to or after the SC install? I will agree that I saw I noticeable drop when I put my steel bumper on so that would be interesting to know. It sounded like you were saying you got up to 14+ while you were babying the new kit, which would be pretty decent considering stock gears, armor, drawers, roof rack and a gas guzzling supercharger!

I have 295 mud tires, armor front and rear and stock gearing (for now) and see high 12s combined mileage.

Evening yall,

I wanted to give all of you an update as to my personal experience with the supercharger. Im sure by now you all know that I do not work for Magnuson. I just happened to be in the right place and the right time to have been fortunately placed to assist in the process. I have had my kit on for some time and wanted to give yall some real life experience with it. I can tell you up front that I have yet to get bored with it and it still impresses me. I have given many people rides in it and many have driven it and the experience is all the same.
Many of you ask about MPG and it really comes down to how hard you're driving it. When I first got the kit, some time ago, I babied it for the first few hundred miles. Coming from the car scene and massive turbo setups, I am used to doing so to insure proper break in. With these kits you don't necessarily have to do that but its just my way of doing things. Prior to purchase these kits are tested very thoroughly. My MPG during that time honestly got better. Not by much but its something. I was right around 14+. I wasn't constantly dropping gears to maintain speed, it didn't struggle to get up a hill and maintained what appears to be lower rpms at cruise. I will say that I saw better MPG whilst not utilizing cruise control. After that "break-in period" it has dropped. I'm currently sitting at 12MPG but keep in mind that's because of aggressive accelerations and testing out each gear to see if there is any drops in performance or timing etc. It is also from giving people rides and letting others drive the vehicle. Testing hard accelerations on flat, up hill etc. It works fine in 4H and 4L and under crawl control conditions. There is currently another tune that will be uploaded and it is showing great numbers. It was tested under some heavy load testing and other conditions and it performed flawlessly.
I am currently working on relocating the heat exchanger pump and coolant lines that run to it due to winch location. Its a tight fit and for some will be a must depending on the size of their winch. Not a big deal and is something that can easily be done. Ill post pictures soon. If you have any questions, please feel free to reach out.

 

[wfo9]

Load calculation is linearly related to manifold pressure. Assuming the bypass valve is using the same measurement, then yes the two would be directly related. If the bypass valve is done via a solenoid and electronics - it's whatever they program it to do. These engines are pretty much always just on the verge of a downshift - meaning near peak torque at the current rpm. It's a balance of course. The power necessary to overcome friction is the same. In theory the same air volume would flow through anytime you can maintain highway speed in 5th gear. The problem is that a 5th gen with larger tires and a small lift can rarely maintain 5th gear at 80+mph. So the valve will partially close and boost will generate above the throttle valve until it balances power output. At that point it will likely still have some measured vacuum inside the manifold, but there will be boost pressure above atmospheric pressure upstream of the throttle valve.

I'm going to stop responding for now. There are several things off above but I don't have the energy to explain right now and it is really a waste of most peoples time.

I promise to eventually attempt explain with pictures, diagrams, and best of all data.

 

[philsey]

You guys can measure dicks all day long with engineering blather, but I'm simply interested in mo powah/better driveability. And my simple little brain tells me power takes fuel.

And if I'm going to drop 6+ Lg for openers, I don't give a hoot-in-hell about a few mpg. I really like this vehicle, but it is boring to drive - it can even be annoying. I'd be in line tomorrow for one with the 4.7L V8, but hell that'd be 45K, so I'm saving money, right? Right? Anyone?

 

[THESS]

One thing about your MPG. I noticed you just put a bumper on the other day... From my experience.. aftermarket bumpers can have a major negative impact on MPG. The brick becomes a brick with two parachutes via the fender-wells LOL. Just something to keep in mind.

This was primarily before the bumper however the bumper weighs in at 68lbs I believe. It is aluminum and not steel. Went from 286 a tank to 284.

 

[THESS]

I'm confused here... Why are we debating the technical reasons MPG will tank with this kit when we have a real world review showing it hasn't? I put my key takeaways in bold below.

[MENTION=139149]THESS[/MENTION] when did you install the front bumper? Prior to or after the SC install? I will agree that I saw I noticeable drop when I put my steel bumper on so that would be interesting to know. It sounded like you were saying you got up to 14+ while you were babying the new kit, which would be pretty decent considering stock gears, armor, drawers, roof rack and a gas guzzling supercharger!

I have 295 mud tires, armor front and rear and stock gearing (for now) and see high 12s combined mileage.

It was prior to the front bumper however I am running and aluminum front bumper. I was averaging 286 before front bumper and 284 currently. I have reset my average to see what happens. When you're cruising, your not necessarily in boost and when your not in boost the supercharger makes no difference when not being used. I do have 285/75/17 ATii Extremes which are similar to an RT, rack with accessories mounted, packed drawer systems and some armor. So majority of my loss has been from those modifications and not the supercharger. Now when you get into boost, thats another story. You will burn more fuel. However the vehicle isnt jumping to 4500-5k going up a hill or constantly changing gears. I can maintain my speed of say 70mph up a decent hill and sit comfortably at 3k. I also need to say 80% of my 120 miles per day commute is highway and I try to keep it between 67-70mph.

 

[enapa]

What kind of moron gives a shit about MPG when adding a supercharger? This is retarded as hell. Want good MPG? Buy a damn Prius.

 

[THESS]

Ill come see you, I gotta stop by their booth anyway. I get 12 mpg already, so I already know that will get work, but I live 4 miles from work and accelerate like a maniac, have the RTT on right now too.

Looking forward to meeting you. Just saw all the goodies from yall that Bernie received. Heard great things.

 

[THESS]

The boost effectively shortens the power stroke as compared to the intake air volume. Thermal efficiency goes down in that scenario in most cases. Hence the reason atkinson cycle is more thermally efficient. You can try to solve the issue with a lean burn and cool the cyl. temps with direct injection - but we don't have that option. I would expect thermal efficiency to drop under most scenarios. The 1GR in a 4runner does not run at low output at highway speeds. It will probably be in boost range 95% of the time on the highway. I doubt it will experience a bypass condition very often.

I think it may see some improvements by not down shifting so often. I'd guess Magnusson also tunes it leaner than Toyota. I'm not sure how the ultimate balance works out. I would expect an mpg hit for most uses other than possibly towing where you're often in 3rd gear at high rpms. In that case staying in 5th gear might make up for the less efficient burn.

It is running a tad leaner but you are correct that it doesnt need to shift as often and can maintain its speed in a way that I would define normal. There will be some info regarding the testing with a large trailer coming forward soon as well. I am not in boost all the time unlessI need more power. Obviously when in boost, you are burning more fuel however it is give and take. Id rather have the power then revving to the moon to get up a minor hill. haha

 

[Jetboy]

I'm confused here... Why are we debating the technical reasons MPG will tank with this kit when we have a real world review showing it hasn't? I put my key takeaways in bold below.

.

The fact that you're installing a radiator to dissipate heat should tell you all you really need to know to come to that conclusion. Unless the first law of thermodynamics changed since I last checked - heat has to come from somewhere...