Need some expert help - installed Bilsteins (pics) but have issues

[robotkiller]

You know, it would be good to see some pictures of your suspension in the front...That might help some of us visualize the issue. Also, have you thought about taking it back to the place that installed it?

The first shop has washed their hands of it - they said they would cover anything that they were responsible for (if anything). In any event, I don't want them messing with it anymore. Alot of those original issues seem to be better with the alignment, but here's a couple of pics of how it looks now:

Full lock in park

Full lock in reverse with L front wheel rubbing. This may be normal, for all I know:

Here's the front - it's on an sideway incline. I don't see an overt KDSS lean that could be tripping the TRAC system here.

Here's the sway bar - you can seem some crumpling in the KDSS boot from when it activated, probably from the installation. The front bolts of the sway, and the bar itself, appear to be level.

 

[Narkhelek]

One question I have, that I wonder if anyone here can answer - Does KDSS need to be reset/bled? Could the sways be causing a lean that is tripping the TRAC system and causing the computer to reset the steering wheel off-center?

There is a procedure to recalibrate the KDSS. It's purpose is to rebalance the hydraulics if your vehicle is leaning to one side more than the other. It's a fairly simple procedure to perform. It involves loosening a couple bolts and then bouncing your truck until it levels out. If you look in the repair manual that has been posted on here you'll find it. Or you can PM me and I'll email you a PDF of it.

However, I'm not sure that a sway bar would cause the issues you've experienced and I do not believe there is any computer controlling the steering wheel alignment as that's a mechanical system that is not computer adjusted.

 

[robotkiller]

There is a procedure to recalibrate the KDSS. It's purpose is to rebalance the hydraulics if your vehicle is leaning to one side more than the other. It's a fairly simple procedure to perform. It involves loosening a couple bolts and then bouncing your truck until it levels out. If you look in the repair manual that has been posted on here you'll find it. Or you can PM me and I'll email you a PDF of it.
However, I'm not sure that a sway bar would cause the issues you've experienced and I do not believe there is any computer controlling the steering wheel alignment as that's a mechanical system that is not computer adjusted.

I would appreciate a copy - I'll send you a PM.

I don't doubt that you're right and KDSS has nothing to do with it. Just thinking outside the box. The steering wheel alignment idea was the dealers - unless they are completely wrong or I misheard them. Either way, thanks for the feedback. It just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Jesse1983]

Here's the sway bar - you can seem some crumpling in the KDSS boot from when it activated, probably from the installation. The front bolts of the sway, and the bar itself, appear to be level.

dude, that looks bad. My guess is definitely the KDSS looking at that. What does the other side look like?

 

[FERAL 4R]

Another option for you if you suspect the KDSS

...Go to the place where KDSS has been worked on longer than any other...

Hint: Starts with and "L", and ends with "exus"...

 

[robotkiller]

There is a procedure to recalibrate the KDSS. It's purpose is to rebalance the hydraulics if your vehicle is leaning to one side more than the other. It's a fairly simple procedure to perform. It involves loosening a couple bolts and then bouncing your truck until it levels out. If you look in the repair manual that has been posted on here you'll find it. Or you can PM me and I'll email you a PDF of it.

However, I'm not sure that a sway bar would cause the issues you've experienced and I do not believe there is any computer controlling the steering wheel alignment as that's a mechanical system that is not computer adjusted.

dude, that looks bad. My guess is definitely the KDSS looking at that. What does the other side look like?

Doesn't look good does it. I don't want to overreact to a shock boot, but it has me thinking. The KDSS is not throwing codes, but I wonder if it would be worth opening the KDSS valve and making sure the sways move freely, then closing them on level ground to make sure they are even. I want to go through the dealer with this, b/c I have the other shop's word (for what that's worth) that they would replace anything they screwed up.

The other side looks ok, I think.

 

[robotkiller]

Another option for you if you suspect the KDSS

...Go to the place where KDSS has been worked on longer than any other...

Hint: Starts with and "L", and ends with "exus"...

That was my next step, but I wasn't sure if they would give me the time of day with this. The Toyota dealer has no experience with KDSS, unfortunately.

 

[Jesse1983]

Doesn't look good does it. I don't want to overreact to a shock boot, but it has me thinking. The KDSS is not throwing codes, but I wonder if it would be worth opening the KDSS valve and making sure the sways move freely, then closing them on level ground to make sure they are even. I want to go through the dealer with this, b/c I have the other shop's word (for what that's worth) that they would replace anything they screwed up.

The other side looks ok, I think.

Can you take this same pic on the drivers side?

 

[robotkiller]

Can you take this same pic on the drivers side?

Sure - the angle is not quite the same

Here's the other side of the sway bar - the line of the sway across the front of the car appears level (to eye)

 

[pawzitiv]

Full lock in park

If this is full lock, something isn't right. At full lock, your wheel should be displaying noticeable positive camber. Also, I can get far more steering angle at full lock than what your photo shows .. like this:

Here's the front - it's on an sideway incline. I don't see an overt KDSS lean that could be tripping the TRAC system here.

I'd say that whoever did your alignment dialed in some positive camber on the front wheels. Neutral camber or a slight negative camber would be better. It may just be the picture but I'd almost say your wheels are toed OUT .. not good if that is the case.

Here's the sway bar - you can seem some crumpling in the KDSS boot from when it activated, probably from the installation. The front bolts of the sway, and the bar itself, appear to be level.

There's definitely something wrong here. It looks like the installer of your shocks let the KDSS piston overextend when he disconnected the sway bar and then used brute force (floor jack??) on the piston to push it back up so he could re-attached the sway bar ends to your LCAs.

Here's a question .. is the sound you hear at full lock just the tire rubbing in the wheel well or is it a metal-on-metal sound? As I'm sure you've read on this forum, tire rub can be eliminated with aftermarket UCAs and a visit to a GOOD alignment tech.

I think you've got a multitude of issues going on .. possible damaged KDSS hydraulics components, possible broken ABS sensor wire and a poor alignment. Getting past these issues is going to be a process of elimination. As a first step, one would think that the TRAC warning light should be easy enough to diagnose but if not, do a continuity check on both front ABS sensor wires. Next order of business is to check the fluid pressure and proper operation of the KDSS actuator pistons .. hopefully nothing got pooched. Re-calibration of the KDSS is likely necessary and it wouldn't hurt to have your tech do the yaw/acceleration re-calibration as well. Last thing would be to go to an independent alignment shop that specializes in lifted 4x4 vehicles. I don't know what UCAs you have but a good alignment tech will know how to use both the LCA cam bolts as well as the UCA caster adjustment plates (if you have them) to push the position of the front wheels further forward in the wheel wells.

I can speak from bitter experience that virtually no Toyota techs have had training for diagnosing/repairing KDSS problems. I borked my KDSS when I tried to do my own re-calibration (fluid loss) and getting that fixed was an expensive lesson. My dealer had to order in the fluid as well as the special service tool needed to pressurize the KDSS hydraulic and the master tech doing the work was pooping his knickers through the whole repair process. My KDSS is fixed now but the repair bill was over $900!!!!!!

Here's what my KDSS piston boot and sway bar location looks like (after the repairs) with my front wheels turned to full right lock. Maybe compare this to what you see on your own 4Runner.

Best of luck and please let us know how you make out.

 

[robotkiller]

If this is full lock, something isn't right. At full lock, your wheel should be displaying noticeable positive camber. Also, I can get far more steering angle at full lock than what your photo shows .. like this:
I'd say that whoever did your alignment dialed in some positive camber on the front wheels. Neutral camber or a slight negative camber would be better. It may just be the picture but I'd almost say your wheels are toed OUT .. not good if that is the case.

After I get this thing fixed, maybe I need to find a better alignment person. I'm strongly considering dropping the front to .85 and taking out the rear spacer so that I can get a solid alignment. I don't have the cash for UCAs right now.

There's definitely something wrong here. It looks like the installer of your shocks let the KDSS piston overextend when he disconnected the sway bar and then used brute force (floor jack??) on the piston to push it back up so he could re-attached the sway bar ends to your LCAs.

Here's a question .. is the sound you hear at full lock just the tire rubbing in the wheel well or is it a metal-on-metal sound? As I'm sure you've read on this forum, tire rub can be eliminated with aftermarket UCAs and a visit to a GOOD alignment tech.

I think you've got a multitude of issues going on .. possible damaged KDSS hydraulics components, possible broken ABS sensor wire and a poor alignment. Getting past these issues is going to be a process of elimination. As a first step, one would think that the TRAC warning light should be easy enough to diagnose but if not, do a continuity check on both front ABS sensor wires. Next order of business is to check the fluid pressure and proper operation of the KDSS actuator pistons .. hopefully nothing got pooched. Re-calibration of the KDSS is likely necessary and it wouldn't hurt to have your tech do the yaw/acceleration re-calibration as well. Last thing would be to go to an independent alignment shop that specializes in lifted 4x4 vehicles. I don't know what UCAs you have but a good alignment tech will know how to use both the LCA cam bolts as well as the UCA caster adjustment plates (if you have them) to push the position of the front wheels further forward in the wheel wells.

I can speak from bitter experience that virtually no Toyota techs have had training for diagnosing/repairing KDSS problems. I borked my KDSS when I tried to do my own re-calibration (fluid loss) and getting that fixed was an expensive lesson. My dealer had to order in the fluid as well as the special service tool needed to pressurize the KDSS hydraulic and the master tech doing the work was pooping his knickers through the whole repair process. My KDSS is fixed now but the repair bill was over $900!!!!!!

Here's what my KDSS piston boot and sway bar location looks like (after the repairs) with my front wheels turned to full right lock. Maybe compare this to what you see on your own 4Runner.

Best of luck and please let us know how you make out.

Talked to the installer. This is precisely what they did. The sway dropped when installing and they forced it back. If this is the fundamental problem, how do I prove it? What do I need to tell Toyota to do in order to isolate this problem and fix it, so that I can get this idiot shop to pay for it?

EDIT: BTW Toyota has attempted multiple times to recalibrate, including manual calibration. For whatever reason, the car is not letting the techs calibrate. No sensors are reading faulty, but the car is evidently detecting an abnormality in the car's stance (not sure if it's x,y, or z) and locking out the tech from calibrating to zero. My theory has been that KDSS is the underlying problem, but I'm just not sure.

Thanks guys - this forum has been incredibly helpful so far

 

[pawzitiv]

If your first shop (the installer) has given up but claims they'll pay for anything they've buggered up then the installer should talk to your Toyota tech directly. Your Toyota tech will then have a starting point to determine what needs to be done.

I just had another thought .. I don't know if your Bilsteins came with new bushings/spacers for the bottom shocks mounts but my OW/Radflo shocks did and the two of spacers are longer/thicker than the other two. The longer/thicker ones need to be installed towards the front of the vehicle to create clearance for the sway bar. Maybe this sheds some light on why you feel binding at full lock and hear clunking??

 

[pawzitiv]

After I get this thing fixed, maybe I need to find a better alignment person. I'm strongly considering dropping the front to .85 and taking out the rear spacer so that I can get a solid alignment. I don't have the cash for UCAs right now.

After checking to see if your shocks interfere with your sway bar (per my previous post), next try finding a competent alignment tech. He should be able to do better than the +1.0 degree of caster you now have. You may not need to muck with your front shocks or rear spacers.

EDIT: BTW Toyota has attempted multiple times to recalibrate, including manual calibration. For whatever reason, the car is not letting the techs calibrate. No sensors are reading faulty, but the car is evidently detecting an abnormality in the car's stance (not sure if it's x,y, or z) and locking out the tech from calibrating to zero. My theory has been that KDSS is the underlying problem, but I'm just not sure.

When you say re-calibrate, are we talking about the yaw/pitch re-calibration? I venture to guess that the reason the Toyota tech can't re-calibrate is because the steering wheel needs to be centered in order to clear the present calibration. As you've already found out, centering the steering wheel is a task for a good alignment tech.

 

[FERAL 4R]

I know this is a pretty suck situation, because the shop who did your lift install totally dropped the ball, and jacked up your KDSS system...What they SHOULD have done, was to tell you no thanks, as they have no experience in this system, instead of taking your money for a half ass job....And later, in a perfect world...

I am highly recommending that you do not go back to your local Toyota dealership, and call a Lexus dealership, tell them your situation, and see what they can do.

 

[robotkiller]

After checking to see if your shocks interfere with your sway bar (per my previous post), next try finding a competent alignment tech. He should be able to do better than the +1.0 degree of caster you now have. You may not need to muck with your front shocks or rear spacers.



When you say re-calibrate, are we talking about the yaw/pitch re-calibration? I venture to guess that the reason the Toyota tech can't re-calibrate is because the steering wheel needs to be centered in order to clear the present calibration. As you've already found out, centering the steering wheel is a task for a good alignment tech.

Here's a print out of the last alignment - the tech told me the steering wheel was aligned and when he drove it, after a few blocks, it reset itself to a off center position.

I know this is a pretty suck situation, because the shop who did your lift install totally dropped the ball, and jacked up your KDSS system...What they SHOULD have done, was to tell you no thanks, as they have no experience in this system, instead of taking your money for a half ass job....And later, in a perfect world...

I am highly recommending that you do not go back to your local Toyota dealership, and call a Lexus dealership, tell them your situation, and see what they can do.

Tell me about it. I went to this shop b/c it was recommended by a few locals and from what I could find online. I should have never done this without finding a top tier 4X4 shop. That was my mistake. I can only hope the shop honors their word. It's hard to be optimistic, but I'm hoping for the best.

Appreciate your thoughts on the Lexus dealer. My dealer has been really great throughout this, to be honest. They seem to genuinely want to fix this. If they can't make any progress over the next few days, I'm going to try Lexus.

 

[harper7]

From that alignment printout and his note,it sounds right and that he knows what he's doing It has to be the KDSS or possibly the steering rack . I wonder if they opened the KDSS hydraulic lines or bleed valve to get the sway bar back up in place.

I installed a Toytec Ultimate lift on a TE with KDSS and I used a jack to get it back up to the LCA and bolt the end cap back on but I didn't dare open any lines. If I remember it took alot of pressure though and the KDSS hydraulic actuator wanted to shift aft til I supported it with another jack on the other side where the link hangs down. Bolted up and has worked fine and that was awhile ago, like a year and a half or so on Stephanie's TE.

There was another guy that had a TE out in Calif that had some major KDSS problems after a lift but different symptoms then yours if I remember. Nathan(iDRiVaT4R) had a few problems too with VSC kicking in too early.
Found the link........... http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-g...a-dealer-refused-check-kdss-lifted-trail.html

As far as trying to find a shop that has lifted a KDSS equipped truck would be a long shot if not impossible.Alot of shops got it right the first time though as evidenced on the forum. Not many lifted Lexus's or LC's out there for them to have gained experience on.
There's only been a few of us on here that's even done one themselves and to be honest I'd be a little gun shy to do another one with the problems lately. There is just so little info out there on how all the KDSS components work together and how all the sensors tie in.It's like a secret that they don't want to give away,even to their own techs.

Somebody that does their lift with KDSS needs to do DIY and document it so they can tell a shop the ins and outs. Especially that front sway bar. Anybody except for Jesse,McGrimm and I that has done one themselves??

 

[robotkiller]

From that alignment printout and his note,it sounds right and that he knows what he's doing It has to be the KDSS or possibly the steering rack . I wonder if they opened the KDSS hydraulic lines or bleed valve to get the sway bar back up in place.

I installed a Toytec Ultimate lift on a TE with KDSS and I used a jack to get it back up to the LCA and bolt the end cap back on but I didn't dare open any lines. If I remember it took alot of pressure though and the KDSS hydraulic actuator wanted to shift aft til I supported it with another jack on the other side where the link hangs down. Bolted up and has worked fine and that was awhile ago, like a year and a half or so on Stephanie's TE.

There was another guy that had a TE out in Calif that had some major KDSS problems after a lift but different symptoms then yours if I remember. Nathan(iDRiVaT4R) had a few problems too with VSC kicking in too early.
Found the link........... http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-g...a-dealer-refused-check-kdss-lifted-trail.html

As far as trying to find a shop that has lifted a KDSS equipped truck would be a long shot if not impossible.Alot of shops got it right the first time though as evidenced on the forum. Not many lifted Lexus's or LC's out there for them to have gained experience on.
There's only been a few of us on here that's even done one themselves and to be honest I'd be a little gun shy to do another one with the problems lately. There is just so little info out there on how all the KDSS components work together and how all the sensors tie in.It's like a secret that they don't want to give away,even to their own techs.

Somebody that does their lift with KDSS needs to do DIY and document it so they can tell a shop the ins and outs. Especially that front sway bar. Anybody except for Jesse,McGrimm and I that has done one themselves??

If you ask me, installing on a KDSS truck is a crapshoot. The KDSS is the only thing that I think could have been damaged or misaligned in this install (other than sensors, which have not been throwing error codes).

From what see, the safest way to do it would be to open the valves when the car is on a lift so the sways move freely, install the components and then close the valves on level ground. At that point, an alignment and then zero out the TRAC system (if needed). If my KDSS isn't screwed, this might be the only way I can get everything back to normal - start from square one.

 

[harper7]

If you ask me, installing on a KDSS truck is a crapshoot. The KDSS is the only thing that I think could have been damaged or misaligned in this install (other than sensors, which have not been throwing error codes).

From what see, the safest way to do it would be to open the valves when the car is on a lift so the sways move freely, install the components and then close the valves on level ground. At that point, an alignment and then zero out the TRAC system (if needed). If my KDSS isn't screwed, this might be the only way I can get everything back to normal - start from square one.

That's so wierd though that it is affecting your steering angles. All that the actuator does is extend or contract and it's attached to the sway bar and the frame. In the front it's on the Drivers side and there is a link attached on the pass side(sway bar to frame) that acts as a fulcrum point for raising or lowering the respective side of the bar. In the back the actuator is on the pass side. Where and how the sensors are that drive them is what we don't know.

I don't think I would open any valves,unless going step by step thru the repair manual, as this is probably a pretty high pressure system as there are separate hydraulic pumps and accumulators in the back. Accumulators are used in aircraft to maintain high pressure for all the hydraulics,usually 3000psi. You could get air in the lines and then have to bleed them and we've seen how hard it is to find a bleeder kit from bluebaron's post.

 

[robotkiller]

That's so wierd though that it is affecting your steering angles. All that the actuator does is extend or contract and it's attached to the sway bar and the frame. In the front it's on the Drivers side and there is a link attached on the pass side(sway bar to frame) that acts as a fulcrum point for raising or lowering the respective side of the bar. In the back the actuator is on the pass side. Where and how the sensors are that drive them is what we don't know.

I don't think I would open any valves,unless going step by step thru the repair manual, as this is probably a pretty high pressure system as there are separate hydraulic pumps and accumulators in the back. Accumulators are used in aircraft to maintain high pressure for all the hydraulics,usually 3000psi. You could get air in the lines and then have to bleed them and we've seen how hard it is to find a bleeder kit from bluebaron's post.

There's no way I'm messing with the KDSS - it would have to be through a dealer, be it Toyota or Lexus.

The only way I can make sense of this whole thing is that the pitch/yaw sensors are out of wack from a misaligned/malfunctioning KDSS which is tripping the TRAC system and the steering is somehow tied into this whole system. If the pitch/yaw sensors are zeroed out to a lean, would the steering inappropriately compensate by off-centering? I may be completely off base, but it's the best theory I can come up with. I don't know how the other shop could have mangled the steering rack, but who knows. That would be the other possible component - other than the ECU itself which would have rung up a million error codes, I'm sure.

 

[Reata]

Whats the major metro of the OP? Somebody ib here has got to know a good shop....