New Twist on Lower Ball Joint failure
- Thread starter Pikeman
- Start date
Nelsonmd
New member
I am willing to bet that the LBJ is an outsourced part and not made in-house by Toyota. They have their spec for mechanical components, and the their suppliers have to pass that test. It isn't possible to catch everything, and little things slip through All the time (I work for an automotive supplier, so I have run these tests before, and dealt with quality spills).
Also, can you show me a ball joint that holds it the way you are saying? The loading on the suspension puts the steering knuckle in tension, so no matter the orientation of the LBJ, the cup is in tension, so "carrying the weight in the fingers" as you say. What you describe as "in the palm on your hand" is compressive force on the LBJ.
I am not sure what the difference is, I would like to know myself.
Sound like BJ's going?
I'm very new to 4runners and this is the 1st SUV or 4wd vehicle I've personally owned. I've never driven another newer 3rd gen to have any reference but I definately get a sense that there are some worn bits under me.
The steering when centered does have a slight loose/squirrely feel but when just getting around town or slow speed maneuvers the wheel has somewhat of a heavy feel to it... at least compared to some of my other vehicles. The truck is a '99 and has 115k miles on it.
I suspect it has spent some time off road, possibly lifted or maybe someone may or may not have put the '99 tall springs on it? Are there any other tell tale visible signs other than feel at the wheel? I also hear and feel an almost out of balance wheel feel but I've already had everything rotated and balanced. It's almost as if I feel it resonating to the drivers floor pan a bit. Moreso at certain speeds. Thinking this could also be related to joints in the drivetrain.
Any comments appreciated. I'm going to have it all looked at... and soon ! The broken BJ photos are flat out scary considering I use the truck to get my wife and 1 yr. old around.
I'm very new to 4runners and this is the 1st SUV or 4wd vehicle I've personally owned. I've never driven another newer 3rd gen to have any reference but I definately get a sense that there are some worn bits under me.
The steering when centered does have a slight loose/squirrely feel but when just getting around town or slow speed maneuvers the wheel has somewhat of a heavy feel to it... at least compared to some of my other vehicles. The truck is a '99 and has 115k miles on it.
I suspect it has spent some time off road, possibly lifted or maybe someone may or may not have put the '99 tall springs on it? Are there any other tell tale visible signs other than feel at the wheel? I also hear and feel an almost out of balance wheel feel but I've already had everything rotated and balanced. It's almost as if I feel it resonating to the drivers floor pan a bit. Moreso at certain speeds. Thinking this could also be related to joints in the drivetrain.
Any comments appreciated. I'm going to have it all looked at... and soon ! The broken BJ photos are flat out scary considering I use the truck to get my wife and 1 yr. old around.
Singtoe
New member
All the pressure is in the base or the cup of the joint.
The toyota one has lips that hold the ball joint from pulling through. As it wears, the joint will fall apart.
blcktpgsr
New member
Just FYI 90105-10406 has been replaced by 90080-10066 from Toyota. This works for both the L and R Lower ball joint.
Nelsonmd
New member
All the pressure is in the base or the cup of the joint.
The toyota one has lips that hold the ball joint from pulling through. As it wears, the joint will fall apart.
Those are great pics, but I am not seeing the real difference. The first pic looks like it has, for lack of a better term, a deeper grip on the ball, which would be good, but I don't think that is what you are talking about. You put both of those in tension, and the stress is going to be in the same spot for both
Sorry for the ignorance.
Singtoe
New member
The tension on the top photo is the joint being pushed into and the tension of the bottom photo is that the joint is being pulled out of.
Nelsonmd
New member
I don't understand that, tension is tension. The joint is either in tension (pulling apart), compression (pushing together), or shear (if it were loaded sideways).
Suspension compression pushes the LCA down, and the wheel (aka, weight of the vehicle) pulls up on the steering knuckle. The LBJ has to hold the 2 together, so the LBJ is in tension.
Maybe this is just a confusion of terms, but it still sounds like you are trying to say that the ball joint should be in compression, but the ball joint design can't change the external loading applied to the joint.
Google image search result for ball joint turned up similar designs to this one. Many of them are upside down from this one, with the ball facing down/stud facing up, but you could do that on this one and the stress on the joint would be exactly the same and in exactly the same place.
Can you markup those drawings with what you mean?
Pikeman
New member
OK so just got dealing with Collision center and insurance. Collision Center wrote estimate up for complete worst case scenario of bent frame, coil over both upper and lower control arms(Never measured frame or inspected for damage), CV axle, differential housing and of course the fender and some other stuff for $4800 so they totalled the Runner. I mentioned I could show them the posts on here of people having same failure at higher speeds for half the repair costs...Nope. So I bought it back and will be doing the repairs myself, just have to deal with a Salvage title but get to keep my baby.
FYI for those of you that think Prices and values are to high on our Runners well insurance valued mine at $7800 with 230k on it. After sending in my receipts for my bumpers and stuff they only added $150. bringing it to $7950. The salvage was $1350+$500 deductable gave me $6k but I still owed 4K so have 2K to handle all the repairs.
FYI for those of you that think Prices and values are to high on our Runners well insurance valued mine at $7800 with 230k on it. After sending in my receipts for my bumpers and stuff they only added $150. bringing it to $7950. The salvage was $1350+$500 deductable gave me $6k but I still owed 4K so have 2K to handle all the repairs.
BrianSD_42
New member
what is the $1350 for salvage represent? Is that related to having a salvaged title? I'm confused.
Also, it sounds like it could be a lot worse with the insurance. They aren't screwing you too bad.
Where in So-CAL are you? If you are in San Diego then I know a good shop that will do a lot of the work for a good price.
brian2sun
Elite Member
And at least you no longer have a payment! Sucks about the salvage title, but you'll probably keep your 4runner for many more years anyways.
Pikeman
New member
Since I wanted to keep it I had to buy it back for the price the Salvage company was going to pay for it ($1350).
I have USAA for my insurance.
Brian2Sun- yeah going to keep it and wheel it for a long time. I am no longer going to use the term "drive it til the wheels fall off" since that already happened. LOL But with a Salvage title I wont feel so bad about a SAS next year.
I have USAA for my insurance.
Brian2Sun- yeah going to keep it and wheel it for a long time. I am no longer going to use the term "drive it til the wheels fall off" since that already happened. LOL But with a Salvage title I wont feel so bad about a SAS next year.
BrianSD_42
New member
So do I! I assume you a fellow vet or family member. Good to hear it all worked out $$ wise.
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The balljoints on early Tacomas and 96 to 04 4runners, Tundras and Tacomas are all non failsafe designs. The ball is above the lower control arm which leads to the ball constantly being pulled apart from its socket. When it fails it will totally separate causing the arm to drop to the road. Toyota has since switched to the failsafe design which compresses the ball into the socket instead of trying to pull it apart. The ball is under the lower control arm now instead of on top of it...05 and up Tacomas, 4Runners, FJ Cruiser and new Tundras. If the ball gets worn and loose it will not pull apart and drop on the road. This is a very dangerous design an in my opinion was a mistake by Toyota engineers. The ball must always be below the loaded arm..in this case the LCA. On the previous torsion bar design the load arm is the UCA and the ball is below it hence compression instead of pull apart tension. On all other trucks I have seen the ball is always below the load arm. In reality, they are 3 potential failure points in these suspensions and I have seen all.
1. Balljoint
2. The 4 securing bolts
3. The nut securing the LCA to the balljoint
Failure of any one of these can lead to catastrophic results
Now hasn't Toyota screwed up here?
This dangerous issue has been fixed in the newer models.
I will post pics to support my statements.
1. Balljoint
2. The 4 securing bolts
3. The nut securing the LCA to the balljoint
Failure of any one of these can lead to catastrophic results
Now hasn't Toyota screwed up here?
This dangerous issue has been fixed in the newer models.
I will post pics to support my statements.
Balljoint Failure
Worn balljoint Failure. Note Ball above LCA. On these trucks the LCA is the loaded Arm so the ball should be below for Compression forces.
Coilover pushing down on Load Arm and wheel assembly resisting.. putting Tension on Ball joint. Any weak link will lead to catastrophic failure.
Worn Balljoint and ball separation AKA Catastrophic failure.
4Runner Balljoint Failure
Tacoma Balljoint failure
Tacoma balljoint Failure
Tundra balljoint failure
4runner balljoint Failure
Failure of Securing nut..maybe got loose due to improper torque and safety pin failure.
Securing bolt failure
Toyota Sequoia Balljoint failure with rollover.
Toyotas new Design with balljoint Below LCA. Even the securing bolts are not under tension. The ball will never pop out of its socket as its under compression..05+ Tacomas, 4Runners, FJ Cruiser, Lexus SUVS, Tundras, landcruisers and Sequoias. This is a FAIL SAFE DESIGN Finally!!!!!!
Worn balljoint Failure. Note Ball above LCA. On these trucks the LCA is the loaded Arm so the ball should be below for Compression forces.
Coilover pushing down on Load Arm and wheel assembly resisting.. putting Tension on Ball joint. Any weak link will lead to catastrophic failure.
Worn Balljoint and ball separation AKA Catastrophic failure.
4Runner Balljoint Failure
Tacoma Balljoint failure
Tacoma balljoint Failure
Tundra balljoint failure
4runner balljoint Failure
Failure of Securing nut..maybe got loose due to improper torque and safety pin failure.
Securing bolt failure
Toyota Sequoia Balljoint failure with rollover.
Toyotas new Design with balljoint Below LCA. Even the securing bolts are not under tension. The ball will never pop out of its socket as its under compression..05+ Tacomas, 4Runners, FJ Cruiser, Lexus SUVS, Tundras, landcruisers and Sequoias. This is a FAIL SAFE DESIGN Finally!!!!!!
Stick Figure
New member
Only thing I don't like about the new design is that there are only two bolts holding them in rather than the 4 in the previous design. Otherwise I can see where it would keep damage to a minimum in a failure.
I still say proper maintenance and this can all be avoided anyway. I know when my ball joints were getting up there in miles and abuse, the truck had a noticeable handling change, and just general slop in the front end. When I noticed it was getting worse, I picked up a new daily driver until I had time to go through and replace everything I wanted to. I don't think I've read a post on here that someone said the truck was fine up until the exact point of total failure. Everyone seems to notice a noise or a feel before the breaking point. That should probably be a warning.
I still say proper maintenance and this can all be avoided anyway. I know when my ball joints were getting up there in miles and abuse, the truck had a noticeable handling change, and just general slop in the front end. When I noticed it was getting worse, I picked up a new daily driver until I had time to go through and replace everything I wanted to. I don't think I've read a post on here that someone said the truck was fine up until the exact point of total failure. Everyone seems to notice a noise or a feel before the breaking point. That should probably be a warning.
Bolts are not under pull apart tension mut under compression. Bolts ar also bigger.
