No KDSS for FJ Cruiser ?

[thebwlife]

Engineer = Attorney that can do math

 

[05Rrunner]

Everyone you need to read these two above posts as they are correct in every way.

I watched several videos of the KDSS system last night on youtube. While it is hard to separate marketing hype truth from real truth here is what is happening:

Let's compare first a SR5. The SR5 has no KDSS and the swaybar is much smaller. These are the only two differences in suspension compared to a Trail. Everything else is the same - UCA's, LCA's springs and most important geometry. I have an SR5 and the body roll on road is more pronounced than a trail. Off road it does fine and provides the same articulation as a Trail because the geometry is the same.

If I were doing a truthful commercial without any marketing here is what it would be:
"The Trail has a bigger sway bar to help body lean during highway driving. If we kept it like this with no additions it would cause you to have less articulation off road and your wheels would not touch the ground over little bumps. We fixed that by adding a system called KDSS that lets the Trail change the sway bar stiffness by magic and give you the same articulation as the Limited and SR5 with it's puny sway bar. So now you have the best of both worlds: Great handling without as much body roll and off road performance as good as the other models."

This is the truth. You have to listen to the words of the videos and don't fall for the mumbo jumbo. Even the print ads are misleading. I can say something like "Improves off road performance" and still be truthful. How? By comparing it to the Trail with a big sway bar and no KDSS. Never mind they don't make that model (the TE with no KDSS comes with the SR5 sway bar). Now, if I said "The Trail with KDSS outperforms all other 4Runners because it has KDSS that would be a lie." Watch the wording.

With that said I still like KDSS because the majority of my driving is on the highway and just might get a TE one of these days. I won't fall for the hype though.

:iagree:

 

[Blacksunshyne]

I drove the non KDSS SR5 and the KDSS equipped Trail, both on road only during my test drives. Both back to back on a few different days (it takes me a while to make up my mind) I can tell you that there is a difference on road betwen the two. Off road? I have no idea the dealer frowned upon offroad testing.:

So far the Trail has done well offroad and in snowy conditions. I like to think that is more akin to my excellent driving skills rather than KDSS :lmao::lmao:

 

[veloindy]

Let's compare first a SR5. The SR5 has no KDSS and the swaybar is much smaller. These are the only two differences in suspension compared to a Trail. Everything else is the same - UCA's, LCA's springs and most important geometry. I have an SR5 and the body roll on road is more pronounced than a trail. Off road it does fine and provides the same articulation as a Trail because the geometry is the same.

When shopping, I was told the stock shocks were different on the Trail, is that not true?

There is for sure a difference in the way the Trail handles on the road compared to the SR5 and Limited. Is it really just KDSS? I drove them all back to back too.

 

[Jeremy556]

When shopping, I was told the stock shocks were different on the Trail, is that not true?

False. Same shocks as the SR5. Only the Limited has different shocks (XREAS)

 

[veloindy]

False. Same shocks as the SR5. Only the Limited has different shocks (XREAS)

Interesting. The SR5 felt "mushy", the Trail felt more "firm", and the Limited felt more like my 06 Sport (with XREAS).

 

[MT4X4]

When shopping, I was told the stock shocks were different on the Trail, is that not true?

There is for sure a difference in the way the Trail handles on the road compared to the SR5 and Limited. Is it really just KDSS? I drove them all back to back too.

The only difference between the two is the sway bar.

For the TE edition with KDSS the reason for such a large sway bar is due to the hydraulic rams is using it to push and pull the lower a arms. Another difference is the KDSS sway bar is attached to the lower a arm versus the spindle.

The sway bar on the SR5 is the same sway bar that Toyota has been using since 03 - current 4Runner, 07-current FJ Cruiser and 05-current Tacoma which attaches to the spindle assembly.

To address the claim of "additional suspension travel" the suspension components are exactly the same on all the model of 4Runners and that transfers over to the 2010+ FJ Cruiser as well. Your factory strut only has "X" amount of extended travel and that's it, the suspension will not droop any further. To change that you have to upgrade to a coilover that has the extended travel specs along with upgrading to an aftermarket upper control arm.

For those with that compare the factory ride between SR5 and TE, sure the TE will have a better ride on the road due to the KDSS controlling the suspension. However, most people install lift kits on their trucks and this is where you can drastically change the quality of the ride on and off road. You can easily eliminate body roll, brake dive and the mushy feel by purchasing a quality coilover system (Icon, Radflo, King, Fox, etc) or replacement strut (ex. OME, Ironman 4x4, TJM etc). Spacers lifts will not give you a better ride, they simply use your factory mushy suspension components which will achieve your 2-3" lift but does not increase ride quality.

 

[TRDCal]

It allows a thicker swaybar (better on-road handling) while still allowing for decent articulation (off-road performance).

I see, I guess I was a victim of false advertising or at least "blurred truth" advertising.

Makes sense that the travel can't be any more that the SR5/LTD since the suspension components are the same. I still don't see why they wouldn't offer it on the LTD tho since it only benefits on road handling but I suppose thats a topic for a different thread.

 

[bofa]

For the record. If I was to do it over again, I would buy a TE with KDSS. The road manners are awesome. But there is no huge advantage of a KDSS-equiped TE over a non KDSS TE when it comes to off-road capability. And I would agree with LT that coil-overs, UCAs, and tires turn the 4runner into a great all-around package.

Did you mean "wouldn't"?

^No. I can tell you from personal experience that coilovers, LT tires, and UCAs improve ride, handling, and off-road performance.

Sorry was a bit confused (and still might be.. hah). You said you would buy a TE with KDSS but were explaining how a few mods on the SR-5 can be quite good.... so I wasn't sure if you would or wouldn't buy with KDSS. I need to test drive one for sure, but they are rarely on the lots unfortunately.

 

[KCcarguy]

I like my lift and tires, but I think KDSS plus lift would be a great all around package. It's hard to explain, but KDSS just seemed to ride smoother and eliminate some of side-to-side bouncing you get on rough/ undulating roads (lots of those in Oklahoma). Plus, I like the look of the TEs and locking rear diff. I would also bet TEs will have better resale. If I had known it was possible to add leather (katskins) to a TE, that's what I would have done.

 

[gray street]

Everyone you need to read these two above posts as they are correct in every way.

I watched several videos of the KDSS system last night on youtube. While it is hard to separate marketing hype truth from real truth here is what is happening:

Let's compare first a SR5. The SR5 has no KDSS and the swaybar is much smaller. These are the only two differences in suspension compared to a Trail. Everything else is the same - UCA's, LCA's springs and most important geometry. I have an SR5 and the body roll on road is more pronounced than a trail. Off road it does fine and provides the same articulation as a Trail because the geometry is the same.

If I were doing a truthful commercial without any marketing here is what it would be:
"The Trail has a bigger sway bar to help body lean during highway driving. If we kept it like this with no additions it would cause you to have less articulation off road and your wheels would not touch the ground over little bumps. We fixed that by adding a system called KDSS that lets the Trail change the sway bar stiffness by magic and give you the same articulation as the Limited and SR5 with it's puny sway bar. So now you have the best of both worlds: Great handling without as much body roll and off road performance as good as the other models."

This is the truth. You have to listen to the words of the videos and don't fall for the mumbo jumbo. Even the print ads are misleading. I can say something like "Improves off road performance" and still be truthful. How? By comparing it to the Trail with a big sway bar and no KDSS. Never mind they don't make that model (the TE with no KDSS comes with the SR5 sway bar). Now, if I said "The Trail with KDSS outperforms all other 4Runners because it has KDSS that would be a lie." Watch the wording.

With that said I still like KDSS because the majority of my driving is on the highway and just might get a TE one of these days. I won't fall for the hype though.

I have a question. I understand that ALL 3 versions of the 5th gen have equal amounts of total articulation. Wouldn't the level of weight, force, or strain (not sure of correct word) needed to elicit such articulation be less with a system like KDSS?

 

[1engineer]

I have a question. I understand that ALL 3 versions of the 5th gen have equal amounts of total articulation. Wouldn't the level of weight, force, or strain (not sure of correct word) needed to elicit such articulation be less with a system like KDSS?

Are you asking if it's easier to compress the suspension on a KDSS equipped vehicle than a non-KDSS equipped vehicle?

 

[gray street]

Are you asking if it's easier to compress the suspension on a KDSS equipped vehicle than a non-KDSS equipped vehicle?

In a way. My thought was that because the sway bar remains "engaged" in a non-kdss vehicle, that it would require greater force to achieve the same amount of flex of a kdss runner. As the sway bar would require more force to move the left and right wheels relative to each other.

 

[1engineer]

In a way. My thought was that because the sway bar remains "engaged" in a non-kdss vehicle, that it would require greater force to achieve the same amount of flex of a kdss runner. As the sway bar would require more force to move the left and right wheels relative to each other.

KDSS equipped vehicles have a bigger diameter sway bar which makes for stiffer cornering. That's why they came up with a way to change the angle of the sway bar for off road use.

 

[gray street]

KDSS equipped vehicles have a bigger diameter sway bar which makes for stiffer cornering. That's why they came up with a way to change the angle of the sway bar for off road use.

I know.

My point is that while both KDSS/Non can both articulate, the KDSS will allow the weight of the vehicle to be more equally distributed between the tires as it would require less force to flex in comparison to nonkdss. This becomes a problem with open differentials.

 

[Thai]

I know.

My point is that while both KDSS/Non can both articulate, the KDSS will allow the weight of the vehicle to be more equally distributed between the tires as it would require less force to flex in comparison to nonkdss. This becomes a problem with open differentials.

I agree with Gray. KDSS does not make sway bars magically thinner...it DISCONNECTS them (at least according to Toyota). A disconnected axle will move more/easier than an axle with the sways intact (no matter how thin it is). KDSS may not technically make a suspension travel more, but it makes it easier to move when a load is placed at the other end. Follows terrain easier and faster. More responsive.

Remember, although it is not on FJ, KDSS has been proven worldwide off-road in one form or another.

Do you guys think that a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon has the same travel when it disconnects the front axle vs. a non-Rubicon Wrangler? Same thing with 4runner KDSS.

As for it not being on FJ, it is simply cost and complexity. Let's make another argument...why is KDSS not on SR5? If KDSS is not costly, then why is it not on SR5? It is not on SR5 because it costs money. FJ Cruiser costs less than 4runner for the most part. So, it is a lower level trim than 4runners. (Think Xterra vs. Pathfinder.) And since it is a lower level than 4runner, KDSS is too costly for it (since it is too costly for SR5 model).

KDSS is an off-road tool that is also pretty good on-road (due to thicker anti-roll bars). It has a dual purpose (unlike XREAS)...but kid you not, it is an off-road tool first. 4runner Limited is for the fancy folks who don't normally take it off-road...so Toyota gave it XREAS. (XREAS has an active roll in minimizing body roll around corners.)

For me, there is no question as to which 4runner model i would buy if i wanted to take it off-road. No brainer IMO. KDSS works...and works well. Yes, it does have a few hanging parts down low, but nothing too fragile.

 

[1engineer]

I know.

My point is that while both KDSS/Non can both articulate, the KDSS will allow the weight of the vehicle to be more equally distributed between the tires as it would require less force to flex in comparison to nonkdss. This becomes a problem with open differentials.

Now I understand what you meant! Yes you are correct. Even though the KDSS does not completely disengage the sway bar it effectively renders it inoperable. And yes, whatever torsional force the swaybar requires to allow the control arms to hit their bumpstop would be subtracted. So, if you put a jack under the tire of a non KDSS out in the driveway and jacked it up it would require more force to do so than a KDSS equipped vehicle with the swaybar disengaged, until you developed enough force to start to lift the vehicle by overcoming the downward force of the springs as they compress. Same thing if you put heavier springs on a vehicle. Articulation is the same.

 

[Koz]

Ramp Travel Index: 2011 Lexus GX 460 with KDSS

Koz

 

[Thai]

I disagree with those who think that KDSS does not increase articulation. It seems that this claim of no improvement comes from folks without KDSS!

Here is an old article:

"Since we liked the Lexus last year, it is no surprise that we liked it even better this year, since it has greater articulation. Sure, at first some of us thought the KDSS system was a gimmick. But then we ramped the GX and found that increased articulation was notable and, on a 20-degree ramp, provided a 519 RTI, compared to an RTI score of 428 on a GX 470 without KDSS. This increased articulation is readily apparent on the trail, where the flex of the rear suspension helps the Lexus stay planted on the ground so that it can find traction."

Read more: Four Wheeler: 2004 Four Wheeler of the Year

 

[harper7]

I disagree with those who think that KDSS does not increase articulation. It seems that this claim of no improvement comes from folks without KDSS!

That's because you are clueless to the suspension mechanical parts on a 5th Gen 4Runner or how they work.
I've changed several 5th Gen suspensions with KDSS and without .I know for a FACT that they do not increase articulation as I know what the actual physical limits of the 5th Gens Independent Front Suspension and rear 4-link suspension are. How many have you worked on to get your mechanic experience or do you just drink the marketing kool aid??? I'd like to hear your opinion on what the actual up and down stops are?

There's plenty of pics and discussions on here showing the parts and how they work,not to mention the Toyota factory manual, if you want to educate yourself on the topic. http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/99169-where-find-kdss-parts-list.html#post878491

Stick with things you actually have experience in ,like Iphones minivans and Prius's instead of disputing something you are clueless about :biggrin2:

Still love ya man!